Fuel costs.

[MonkeyHanger]

Hi

I dont know about you but the cost of fuel at the minute is the most expensive i have known.

I work about 12 miles from my home and im putting at least £30 a week with all the other running around i do. A few years ago when the price went up we had protests which worked to some extent and the prices fell.

I read last week that gorden brown could reduce the price by an average of 9p per litre due to the extra money he is getting off north sea oil.

Now we have tried blockades and that worked to some extent and maybe we should go down that road again BUT what if every person who travels to work took a 1 day off a week what do you think would happen to the economy.

If the prices keep rising as they are what would be the price we would be paying come the start of next years season 136.9 may be even more at some places now although i make reasonal money i know that i will not be touring very far next year and i was hoping to go and have a week around London and then 2 week tour around devon and cornwall in the summer and a week somewhere else later but i havent yet decided where yet.

Just a thought what do you think?

Cheers,

Andy

 

[Bri-C]

Hi..

De Ja Vue I'm affraid...

Many years ago petrol was hovering in the high 90's per Gallon and there were outcries and Assurences that it could never reach

 

[Geist]

There is supposed to be another rise due in the spring due to a delayed tax rise - something in the order of 3p per litre?

It's certainly beginning to bite now, I've never really noticed the extra cost until recently - now I can see a clear reduction in the miles I get for a

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Andy and Ju

I believe that in relative terms the cost per litre of fuel is less expensive now that back in the 1960's and 70's, so the impact of every litre on everyone's pockets as a proportion of earned income is actually less, however that is not the whole story:-

Since then we have become accustomed making more use of our cars, our average distance between work and home is greater (more of us are on our bikes as Norman Tebbitt asked us to do), and we make use of our cars for shorter journeys such as to and from the shops and school etc. so our overall mileage is greater now and the consequential cost of fuel is greater as proportion of our income.

Partly as a result of freedom to use private transport, not only have our commuting distances increased, they now take us to places that we could not have practically reached on public transport. So it is highly unlikely that public transport is every going to regain the acceptability it used to have, it just doesn't go where we need it too.

I am all for the sensible use of our resources, so to achieve real reductions in the fuel usage we use need to see more fuel efficient transport, but the greatest saving would be to reduce the number if miles we actually need to do. Bring jobs closer to centres of population, or make it possible for remote or home working.

Successive UK governments have failed to have a cohesive transport policy, leaving it to market forces seems to be have been recipe for waste. How many lorries are only full on one leg of a round trip, How many salespeople does it take to give a presentation to a prospective customer. How many busses drive on the same route at virtually the same time? How many car journeys are strictly necessary?

With some reasoned thinking, without political pressure some of these issues could be addressed, but the Goverenments easy option is to hike fuel prices, and increase fines for minor misdemeanours, and where does the money collected from these revenue raiser go?

Answers please

 

[vernon]

It fills the "Black Hole" in the government's budget

 

[Angus1]

John L rightly asks the question "How many lorries are only full on one leg of a round trip?"

I`d be interested to know, or more importantly how many he thinks.

We have a small fleet of HGVs, our biggest single cost -easily- is fuel.Does anyone with one iota of commonsense really think a truck is run `empty` if there is any possible way in which it could be loaded????

A middling size fleet will easily be spending

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Angus,

I am very pleased you have taken the trouble to join the debate. To answer your question, I don't know how many HGV's are empty on return trips, but I suspect there are a significant percentage. My guess would be about 35%. This is based on two observations of the traffic in my area of the West Midlands along the A5 corridor.

Firstly the number of lorries pulled up in layby's overnight with a rear door open to display the fact they are empty, to discourage thieves.

And secondly the number of HGV's whose tyres are not heavily loaded and can pull away from the numerous traffic lights both quickly and without labouring engines.

I appreciate these are not highly scientific tests, but they are an indication.

I do not ignore the number car journeys made with either single occupancy or for journeys that could be delayed and combined with others, or the other choices of transport including walking.

Government should be doing a lot more to encourage the efficient use of fuel, by offering real alternatives through a coherent consistent transport policy. But I fear that they have lost the plot, and only see UK drivers/businesses as a revenue honey pot.

 

[colin(bridgend)]

In my opinion there are many reasons why we are paying through the nose for fuel - whether it be petrol or diesel.

1) Crude oil is sold per barrel by the American dollar - the dollar at present is a very weak currency.

2) The present government is cow towing to minority influences in trying to appear "green" and is doing every thing possible to satisfy this section of society.

3) Fuel tax is added without consideration because the government knows that we are dull enough to pay the price without any serious protest.

4) The British people are such that they will virtually let any government, Labour or Tory, up the taxes and sit back and accept without any protest.

5) V.A.T. on fuel is a sure money earner - as the raw cost with duty rises so the V.A.T. rises proportionally - it is a tax that will never fail or become less.

However

 

[Geist]

Colin wrote: there are many reasons why we are paying through the nose for fuel - whether it be petrol or diesel./,,

and this is one of them:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/11/20/nasylum120.xml

 

[Oldfogey]

Actually, if it wasn't for the weakness of the dollar, petrol prices would be higher - our pound buys more dollars, hence more oil for the pound.

Now, I live in Pembroke, and the cheapest petrol I see as I travel round the UK is in Pembroke Dock - very rare to find cheaper anywhere. Sorry if it doesn't reach Bridgend at the same price.

My neighbour owns a (branded) petrol station, and I asked him how he manages to sell a decent amount when Tesco down the road is 3 or 4p cheaper.

His estimate is;

10% to tourists who don't know their way around.

30% to people who never even look at the price, just fill up wherever they happen to pass as they think they want some.

10% to people who insist his fuel is better than Tesco (it comes out of the same tanker load here)

50% to people who are not paying out of their own pocket, so don't care what the price is.

Whilst those attitudes prevail, the companies will be under no pressure to bring prices down, no matter how a few grumble.

 

[Mike_374322144]

i received this in an email a couple of weeks back, it may be of interest to this debate.

We are hitting 95p a litre in some areas now, soon we will be faced with paying

 

[Surfer]

Sorry Mike but this has been floating around on the Internet for quite along time and is almost laughable even the price of fuel weren't so high.

Although I don't like it, I think a petrol blockade is probably the most effective as the last got the prices on hold for quite awhile.

Also I think choking up London around the House of Commons would also help to wake them up. Surely they realise that they now have a disgrunted population on their hands and it is only a matter of time before there is a collective "NO MORE!"

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Mike,

There is big flaw in your argument; the bulk of the cost of fuel is the duty that we pay on every single litre to our wonderful government.

I believe the current duty is in the order of 60p. so it is not feasible to force one major supplier to drop the retail price to 69p.

We should be making our feelings known to the boys in Whitehall who claim to be working for us - in practice we are working for them.

 

[Mike_374322144]

HI John, sorry not my argument, I was just passing on info I received which may have been beneficial to some on this form.

 

[colin(bridgend)]

Hi John - you state the duty on fuel is approx.60p. - this I cannot argue because I do not know any difference. However the government add VAT to the initial cost of fuel plus the duty therefore they are getting tax twice over and each time the duty level is increased then the VAT is proportionally incresed - they cannot lose - duh we must be dull and gullable to fall for this trick the government has pulled.

 

[George2]

Colin wrote: there are many reasons why we are paying through the nose for fuel - whether it be petrol or diesel./,,

and this is one of them:

]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/11/20/nasylum120.xml

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/11/20/nasylum120.xml[/quote
Sorry I couldn't find ANY reference to petrol, diesel or fuel in that article, I guess you posted the wrong link.

 

[Garfield]

The non duty part of the cost of fuel is governed by the international price of crude oil and production costs so our government has little or no control over this, neither do the oil companies, if we dont buy their product they will sell it to someone else.

As far as fuel duty is concerned, the government needs to raise money to run the country's services and it does this via taxes and duty's.

Oil is a finite resource and it will run out within my lifetime so it is sensible to use as little of it as possible.

Transport causes congestion and pollution so again it is sensible to use it as little as possible.

Altering the tax burden away from income tax towards transport does not mean we pay more tax but it does encourage us to use less fuel/transport.

If a haulage company cannot raise its fees to cover additional fuel costs and goes out of business, this could mean that there are too many haulage companies anyway or businesses are rearranging their logistics to reduce haulage needs which is the desired effect of improving efficiency or the other haulage companies then have less competition, can raise their fees and are back in profit.

If the price of goods rises due to haulage costs then it will have the benefit of encouraging people to buy goods that have not travelled as far.

I do not support any of the fuel protests and would support reducing the rate of income tax and adding more to fuel tax.

Those of you who are retired and not paying income tax will probably be pusing up daisies by the time the oil runs out and the sh*t hits the fan big time so it's understandable that you don't care what happens to the rest of us as long as it does not cost you too much to tow your 2 berth caravan with your 2.5 tonne 4x4.

The price of fuel will continue to rise before it runs out altogether and our cars and caravans will be a thing of the past, get used to it!!!

 

[Angus1]

Sorry Garfield but lots of your arguments don`t hold water, particularly with regards to HGVs.

Case in point:-

Local Company, been in the family for three generations forced to sell to a Dutch competitor (a decent size fleet, 70odd trucks) as they couldn`t compete on price. Why not? The Dutch don`t pay road tax, and any fuel their Dutch registered trucks (which never went home, never had to undergo MOTs) bought at British pump prices had the difference in duty refunded by their government. How do you compete with that?

Anyway, they eventually get taken to task and forced to register as British (MOT, tax etc) and guess what? they can`t make it pay. No problem, just make everyone redundant.Jobs lost, drivers,fitters,managers, everyone.

Who takes up the slack? The bent operators, ignoring maintainance, breaks, speed limiters, running red diesel. Theres more out there than you want to know about.

In our particular industry we found we couldn`t compete with a `fellow` competitor, until they were caught for maintainance offences, taking out tachographs and driving excessive hours.They were eventually prosecuted for destroying over 3000 tachos covering over 1.62million kilometers, and perverting the course of justice.

If you think that is safe or in anyway acceptable, then fine.

I value my family too much to want them on the road at the same time.

 

[colin(bridgend)]

Garfield I assume from your postings that you are favouring the argument regarding global warming, green issues, etc. Each to their own belief and I will not enter into any argument/discussion whether you are right or wrong. All I can say is that you are entitled to your views the same as anybody else are entitled to their views.

In my opinion I will agree that oil will become more scarce as time goes by. I do not however agree with the global warming issues as there have benn many eminent scientists who have put sensable alternative arguments for the fact of the changes in nature. I am of an open mind and can see both sides of the argument/discussion.

I would like to think that I can disagree with you regarding the demise of the motor vehicle and caravans as I am sure technology will over the years design alternative motive powers for transport. Initially the steam engined car was considered God's gift to mankind - then the internal combustion engine came along. So with progress some other means of motive power hopefully will be devised.

One last note sir - I have taken early retirement (not yet 65), I do have a 4x4 and I do tow a 5 berths caravan - daughter is divorced and has two children so generally there are 5 of us going away. For this reason alone I have a big caravan and a 4x4.

My comments above are meant in no way to have a direct attack at your views/opinions but is just an alternative to your postings. Hopefully you will accept my posting with this in mind.

 

[MalcolmL]

Garfield,

You're deluding yourself if you think retired people don't pay income tax. Where on earth did that idea come from? If their income is insufficient to be taxable, do you honestly think they are running 4*4s? I don't think so!

I do believe fuel tax should increase and Vehicle Excise Duty should be a nominal amount so that those driving higher mileages pay accordingly. It would also mean the toerags driving untaxed cars would pay their share.

 

[colin(bridgend)]

Garfield I assume from your postings that you are favouring the argument regarding global warming, green issues, etc. Each to their own belief and I will not enter into any argument/discussion whether you are right or wrong. All I can say is that you are entitled to your views the same as anybody else are entitled to their views.

In my opinion I will agree that oil will become more scarce as time goes by. I do not however agree with the global warming issues as there have benn many eminent scientists who have put sensable alternative arguments for the fact of the changes in nature. I am of an open mind and can see both sides of the argument/discussion.

I would like to think that I can disagree with you regarding the demise of the motor vehicle and caravans as I am sure technology will over the years design alternative motive powers for transport. Initially the steam engined car was considered God's gift to mankind - then the internal combustion engine came along. So with progress some other means of motive power hopefully will be devised.

One last note sir - I have taken early retirement (not yet 65), I do have a 4x4 and I do tow a 5 berths caravan - daughter is divorced and has two children so generally there are 5 of us going away. For this reason alone I have a big caravan and a 4x4.

My comments above are meant in no way to have a direct attack at your views/opinions but is just an alternative to your postings. Hopefully you will accept my posting with this in mind.

In response to Malcolm's posting beneath mine - I am retired (early retirement) and yes I do pay income tax on my Teacher's Pension.

 

[colin(bridgend)]

Garfield,

You're deluding yourself if you think retired people don't pay income tax. Where on earth did that idea come from? If their income is insufficient to be taxable, do you honestly think they are running 4*4s? I don't think so!

I do believe fuel tax should increase and Vehicle Excise Duty should be a nominal amount so that those driving higher mileages pay accordingly. It would also mean the toerags driving untaxed cars would pay their share.

Sorry Malcolm - see above I am retired and I do run a 4x4.

 

[MonkeyHanger]

Hi,

Now that the topic has moved onto global warming somewhat its just been on the news that heathrow is about to get an extra runway and terminal make more co2 in 1 day than kenya does in a year. But why bother cos the price of fuel will put most flights out of the reach of the average hloiday flights so cos of rip off britains fuel prices we wont be able to caravan OR take an annuel package holiday so in theory all we have to look forward to is going to work day in day out.

Ops sorry i forgot i wont be able to goto work cos its a 15mile round trip and if these greenies think im going to bike that 6 days a week there sadly mistaken.

Oh well theres always the dole Mr Brown

cheers

Andy

 

[colin(bridgend)]

Andy - the alternative is to put a gun to your head - I don't think Mr. Brown has over ruled St. Peter and put VAT on sdmission charges LOL

 

[Garfield]

I'm not actually a big beleiver in global warming but the fact that oil will run dry can't be denied by anyone and, having spent 15 years working as a research chemist, none of the altrnatives to oil stand a cat in hell's chance of producing enough fuel to match oil consumption.

As for hgv's even if oil were half the price you would still get cowboy operators skimping on maintenance.