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Oct 12, 2013
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SamandRose said:
......Back on topic - this is a great forum and can whoever is running it please keep up the good work :)

And as regards internet advertising, as far as I'm concerned they can show me whatever they like. Showing me something and expecting me to read it are two entirely different things ...

I think if it wasn't for us contributing on this forum there wouldn't be a forum ! and I agree with you regarding the adverts , seeing them and reading them are totally different things !!
 

Parksy

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SamandRose said:
Quote " Damian did write to the new Owners a while back . Whether he ever received a reply I am sure he will tell us. ".......

....... Back in May I received an email from the editor saying that he had notified Future plc that I was one of their contributors, and would be receiving an email from them shortly to register me on their payments system. Guess what never arrived ... I think that since the takeover the magazine has published one more article from me for which I received not one penny...
I don't know if the same thing happened to Damian but when Haymarket.owned the Practical Caravan magazine and this website moderators received a free copy of Practical Caravan magazine in recompense for our voluntary efforts in helping this forum to run smoothly and spam free.
Since Future plc obtained the brand my free magazine subscription has disappeared.
All efforts to contact the owners both on the contact form at the bottom of the Web page, by email and even via the Practical Caravan Facebook page have been ignored. Forum moderating is a voluntary undertaking, but I'd have appreciated a reply to my attempts to contact the owners to find out why a magazine subscription is too high a price to pay for what we do. :angry:
 

Parksy

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Thanks Alan, I won't hold my breath waiting for a reply though.
If the underlings can't be bothered I doubt if the CEO will trouble herself :unsure:
 

Mel

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What would happen if our fantastic Mods decided that they had had enough and packed it in?

Please Please Please Please don’t do this!!!! :eek:hmy: :eek:hmy:

But do forums “legally” have to be moderated?

Mel
 
Nov 11, 2009
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Mel said:
What would happen if our fantastic Mods decided that they had had enough and packed it in?

Please Please Please Please don’t do this!!!! :eek:hmy: :eek:hmy:

But do forums “legally” have to be moderated?

Mel

Not legally enforced but a prudent precaution by the owners to ensure the magazine doesn’t become liable in the event of inappropriate postings. And to maintain a semblance of standards and etiquette which would doubtless reduce without the good inputs of moderators when required.
 

Parksy

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otherclive said:
Mel said:
What would happen if our fantastic Mods decided that they had had enough and packed it in?

Please Please Please Please don’t do this!!!! :eek:hmy: :eek:hmy:

But do forums “legally” have to be moderated?

Mel

Not legally enforced but a prudent precaution by the owners to ensure the magazine doesn’t become liable in the event of inappropriate postings. And to maintain a semblance of standards and etiquette which would doubtless reduce without the good inputs of moderators when required.
Thanks for your kind words of support.
I briefly considered packing the moddying task in, but there's nobody around that I could rescind my access to the moderator panel to, they simply ignore all attempts to contact them.
As Clive mentioned, internet forums don't have to be moderated, but commercially owned websites have to obey public order and libel laws or risk falling foul of either civil or criminal law which could prove costly, much more than the cost of a couple of free PCv magazine subscriptions for sure.
Mods also remove the occasional spammer, most of it is automaticaly blocked by software put in place by Haymarket but a persistent spammer evades the software now and again.
Personally speaking I wouldn't abandon ship because of a dishonoured magazine subscription but I'm very disappointed that Future plc appear to have such an uncaring attitude.
 
Jun 20, 2005
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In Law there is a serious problem here.
Parksy and Damian acted as Moderators with the endorsement of Haymarket Publishing. Free magazines were given as a token gesture.
Now You two guys are continuing as Mods with NO Authority or brief or acknowledgement from Future Publishing. In fact what is happening you are inadvertently taking a responsibility on behalf of an Owner who has not authorised you.
So we turn to the Laws of Libel. There is a smart arse Lawyer who will say you were both acting without Authority or permission. By default you may allow a company to be libelled. Future will say it wasn’t them but you two! Guess who will carry the can?

Parksy and Damian , be very careful you don’t fall down a big black hole and get covered in Guano :woohoo:
 
Oct 12, 2013
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Parksy said:
otherclive said:
Mel said:
What would happen if our fantastic Mods decided that they had had enough and packed it in?

Please Please Please Please don’t do this!!!! :eek:hmy: :eek:hmy:

But do forums “legally” have to be moderated?

Mel

Not legally enforced but a prudent precaution by the owners to ensure the magazine doesn’t become liable in the event of inappropriate postings. And to maintain a semblance of standards and etiquette which would doubtless reduce without the good inputs of moderators when required.
Thanks for your kind words of support.
I briefly considered packing the moddying task in, but there's nobody around that I could rescind my access to the moderator panel to, they simply ignore all attempts to contact them.
As Clive mentioned, internet forums don't have to be moderated, but commercially owned websites have to obey public order and libel laws or risk falling foul of either civil or criminal law which could prove costly, much more than the cost of a couple of free PCv magazine subscriptions for sure.
Mods also remove the occasional spammer, most of it is automaticaly blocked by software put in place by Haymarket but a persistent spammer evades the software now and again.
Personally speaking I wouldn't abandon ship because of a dishonoured magazine subscription but I'm very disappointed that Future plc appear to have such an uncaring attitude.

Parksy and hopefully Damien ,
Glad to hear your stopping :)
 
Nov 16, 2015
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That would be bad Who would stop Craig from giving me grief on the forum, , but Parksy and Damian , keep safe legal.
 

Parksy

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Dustydog said:
In Law there is a serious problem here.
Parksy and Damian acted as Moderators with the endorsement of Haymarket Publishing. Free magazines were given as a token gesture.
Now You two guys are continuing as Mods with NO Authority or brief or acknowledgement from Future Publishing. In fact what is happening you are inadvertently taking a responsibility on behalf of an Owner who has not authorised you.
So we turn to the Laws of Libel. There is a smart arse Lawyer who will say you were both acting without Authority or permission. By default you may allow a company to be libelled. Future will say it wasn’t them but you two! Guess who will carry the can?

Parksy and Damian , be very careful you don’t fall down a big black hole and get covered in Guano :woohoo:
Lizzie Pope implied via email that both Damian and myself are meant to continue before she left at the time of the sale.
Damian and myself both have proof that we have taken reasonable steps to contact Future plc and the current editor of PCv magazine.
One of the primary advantages of moderated forums is that the moderators don't knowingly allow anyone to be libelled DD.
I haven't learned of any civil legal action being taken against the previous owners of this forum in connection with libel in the ten plus years that I've been a moderator, even longer for Damian.
On balance and with the greatest respect I'd suggest that as far as libel is concerned our joint record would stand scrutiny ;)
 

Damian

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Just to add to Parksys postings, I too have tried to get confirmation of certain things from Future but have failed miserably to get anything.
I also thought about packing in the Moderator role but the one communication I did have reassured me that we were still needed and to carry on as we have been.
As far as the complimentary copies of the magazine go, I have not had one for a couple of years and before that it was sporadic at best.

I have thought seriously about what to do and as I have been Moderating this forum for well over 18 years and battled very hard to get it from something like the Wild West where a small group of posters made life impossible for anyone else to have their input , and made the forum very unfriendly.

I know I have been called all kinds of things, not good things either !! and found guilty by Facebook Court of being a nasty Moderator and all kinds of inferences about the size of various bodily parts !!!(I will leave that to your imagination).
But, having gone through all that I feel it would be a disservice to the many good Forum members who add a lot of knowledge and practical advice for the wider community, especially the new to caravanning people.

Yes it may seem repetitive at times to have the same questions coming up and the same answers being posted, but that is what it is all about, and anything that helps people avoid mistakes which may save their lives is worthwhile.

So, we have had a very brief acknowledgement of our continued role as Mods and still have access to the tools to do the job, which would have been removed if they did not want our continued efforts.
 
Jun 20, 2005
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Many thanks Parksy and Damian,
My prime concern was and is your own well being and immunity from the darker side of life that sadly does exist. We have steered close to the wind in the past with a certain Insurer who cannot be mentioned.
My own take in view of your comments is that by default or inaction on the part of Future Publishing neither they nor their lawyers would succeed in passing the buck to You two in the event of a Libel action.
You both get my vote to continue as you always have . I believe in the worst case scenario an army of Forumites will stand by your sides and deal with any rubbish that may arise :)
 
Mar 13, 2007
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Dustydog said:
Many thanks Parksy and Damian,
My prime concern was and is your own well being and immunity from the darker side of life that sadly does exist. We have steered close to the wind in the past with a certain Insurer who cannot be mentioned.
My own take in view of your comments is that by default or inaction on the part of Future Publishing neither they nor their lawyers would succeed in passing the buck to You two in the event of a Libel action.
You both get my vote to continue as you always have . I believe in the worst case scenario an army of Forumites will stand by your sides and deal with any rubbish that may arise :)

hi all.
just popped in for a visit and caught this thread. no need to worry DD. the moderators are not responsible for the running and general content of the forum that is down to the administrator or admin if there is more than one. admin chooses the content and sets the parameters the forum works under it's all in the administrators tool box the mods have no access to. the modding toolbox doesn't give them control of the forum only the members who have signed on to use it.
in a similar way that if the new owners and therefore admin. shut the web page the forum runs from there would be nothing the mods could do about it. I was in a similar position a while back global moderator with an absent owner I run the forum as best i could with the tools available. then one day l tried to log on only to find the forum had gone when the owner did not renew the contract with the hosting site. that was it gone forever.

I hope this forum doesn't go the same way but do wonder as they don't seem interested in anything to do with it.
 
May 7, 2012
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I do not see the moderators having a problem with libel but it would help if Future did clarify their position to them.
The main area of threat is from untrue complaints against manufacturers and dealers but the manufacturers do not seem to care what is said about them judging by the complaints here and on other forums.
Dealers may not be named and when they are the details of them are deleted by the adjudicators so they are not condoning any libel.
Basically the adjudicator can only face action if they leave anything on the forum after seeing it which is potentially libelous and that is not happening. The publisher would also then have a similar liability, but as presumably they have deeper pockets and insurance, they would normally be the real target. For the publishers similar problems can occur on Facebook and other social media platforms they run so they should be well aware of the risk.
 

Parksy

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Raywood said:
I do not see the moderators having a problem with libel but it would help if Future did clarify their position to them.
The main area of threat is from untrue complaints against manufacturers and dealers but the manufacturers do not seem to care what is said about them judging by the complaints here and on other forums...…

For the publishers similar problems can occur on Facebook and other social media platforms they run so they should be well aware of the risk.

Apologies for drifting slightly off topic here but there are some interesting points raised which I'd like to explore.
A complaint which alleges problems or issues with a brand or specific model of caravan on a moderated internet forum such as this one could potentially be deemed to be defamatory to the manufacturer, but in law the defamation has to be assessed as being proven 'in the eyes of an ordinary man'.
There is a veritable wealth of evidence that would prove that caravan manufacturers products can and do leave their factories in less than perfect condition, therefore the 'ordinary man' who saw the evidence would be likely to agree that things such as poor build quality or shoddy workmanship are not uncommon within the caravan industry (for example).
Manufacturers can and sometimes do reply to these internet forum complaints, in fact caravan related internet forums provide a free of charge real time focus group for caravan manufacturers and they appear to accept that complaints will be aired about the quality of the goods that they produce. The complaints don't directly affect the manufacturers trading position, they are shielded from consumer law by their dealer networks and perhaps a libel action from the manufacturers would reveal some truths or set some precedence that they would prefer not to be explored in a law court.
Dealerships on the other hand can suffer loss of reputation and their future trading prospects could be inhibited by a libellous complaint, so moderators generally remove all references to dealerships or other commercial entities such as caravan parks, accessory sales outlets etc.
Forum moderators have no access to evidence from either side, and their administrators have no interest in gathering evidence of poor quality or bad workmanship etc;
The 'common man' would have no real way of knowing if complaints were genuine without hard evidence, which is why the Consumer Rights Act was set up to explore and assess this evidence on an individual basis in court.
Facebook is in a slightly different position, there are 'community standards' in place which mean that a post is often taken down if these standards are breached, but a complaint about the breach normally has to be made first.
It's a simple matter for a caravan dealership (for example) to monitor a handful of caravan forums, they only need to worry about the bigger ones, but it would be a full time job for a caravan dealer to constantly monitor every Facebook post, so unless they actually see something concerning them which they believe to be defamatory and complain about it the comment remains publicly visible on Facebook.
To briefly summarise, if you really want to 'name and shame' a caravan dealer or any other business entity don't tell us - tell Facebook!
 
Dec 6, 2013
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An update since my earlier post on this thread ... I am now registered as a freelance contributor on the Future Publishing payment system, received £250 for an article featured in the December issue and will be able to invoice the same again for a further article scheduled for publication in March.

A few more of these will pay for a nice holiday :cheer:

I appreciate this isn't of any immediate comfort to the forum administrators but if the magazine are looking after their contributors then it's a start! :)
 
Jun 20, 2005
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SamandRose said:
An update since my earlier post on this thread ... I am now registered as a freelance contributor on the Future Publishing payment system, received £250 for an article featured in the December issue and will be able to invoice the same again for a further article scheduled for publication in March.

A few more of these will pay for a nice holiday :cheer:

I appreciate this isn't of any immediate comfort to the forum administrators but if the magazine are looking after their contributors then it's a start! :)
Imo no problem with forum rules.
Well done the two of you spending time and effort writing on caravan matters close to all our hearts. A lot of us have done the same with caravan forums. Keep at it :cheer: :cheer:
 
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Briefly after speed reading comments, in my opinion the world we live in has and is becoming far too PC and is on the brink of tottering into insanity. Everybody is so petrified of doing or saying something wrong that we are fast reaching the point where nothing at all will be said. What a sad world. The UK is supposed to be the bastion of "free speech" but look around you, that freedom is fast eroding and soon we will not be able to say BO to someone for fear of offending or upsetting them.
So regarding negative comments about products on any forum as far as I'm concerned we should be able to say whatever it is we like. As an example, if a caravan park makes your stay miserable by being over restrictive about do's and don'ts and someone wishes to mention that so be it. Remember what one person thinks is not good may be fine for another. However that is the spice of life, we are all different. having said that, one negative comment will probably have little or no difference to the said park, but if followed by say 6 more, there may be something in the complaint. The reason why we all use forums like this to be informed regarding our caravanning experiences, so I for one would be unhappy if negative reviews were not allowed. Then if the said park start losing business, it is wholly on them. They must sort their management out and provide an experience that will solicit good comments on forums like this. Having said that, I for one would be very disappointed if I bought a brand new van after seeing no negative reports to find out a forum had been removing them out of fear of some sort of backlash. If that were the case why bother with forums knowing you will not see the whole picture.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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Grey13 said:
Briefly after speed reading comments, in my opinion the world we live in has and is becoming far too PC and is on the brink of tottering into insanity. Everybody is so petrified of doing or saying something wrong that we are fast reaching the point where nothing at all will be said. What a sad world. The UK is supposed to be the bastion of "free speech" but look around you, that freedom is fast eroding and soon we will not be able to say BO to someone for fear of offending or upsetting them.
So regarding negative comments about products on any forum as far as I'm concerned we should be able to say whatever it is we like. As an example, if a caravan park makes your stay miserable by being over restrictive about do's and don'ts and someone wishes to mention that so be it. Remember what one person thinks is not good may be fine for another. However that is the spice of life, we are all different. having said that, one negative comment will probably have little or no difference to the said park, but if followed by say 6 more, there may be something in the complaint. The reason why we all use forums like this to be informed regarding our caravanning experiences, so I for one would be unhappy if negative reviews were not allowed. Then if the said park start losing business, it is wholly on them. They must sort their management out and provide an experience that will solicit good comments on forums like this. Having said that, I for one would be very disappointed if I bought a brand new van after seeing no negative reports to find out a forum had been removing them out of fear of some sort of backlash. If that were the case why bother with forums knowing you will not see the whole picture.

Whilst I tend to agree with your views that freedom of speech may be being eroded surely it is naive to expect a commercial entity, like PC, entertain negative comments that would affect their advertising revenue. Also they could have only limited control of what the commentators were saying and how valid it was. There are plenty of other sites that do allow reviews and these include Club websites too. If one wants a truly independent web forum then it would come from like minded individuals setting one up but even then there would have to be some moderation if only to protect it in the event of legal claims.
 

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