Gas BBQ compatability problem

[BigTim]

Hi

We have a small Sunnflair portable gas BBQ which we bought a couple of years ago to use when 'vanning. We have not really got around to using however, and I have just realised the operating pressure for the BBQ is 2 28 mbar butane or 37 mbar propane. Our current (2006) 'van is fitted with bulkhead regulator which I understand is rated at 30 mbar.

Our 'van has an exterior gas connection but presumably I cannot use this BBQ with this but only if I disconnect a cylinder and use a cylinder mounted regulator.

Tim

 

[Mikey1]

Interesting one as i use a Cadac fed from the outside gas point so 30 mb im sure that the jet inside the cadac is 37 md with a butane supplied as well.

Never had a problem

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Tim & Mikey,

You must not connect or cause to be used an appliance fed with the wrong gas or at the wrong pressure.

All gas appliance manufacturers must stipulate the type of gas and the supply pressure required on the data plate of the appliance. To use the appliance on any other gas or pressure is strictly illegal for any domestic or commercial use.

It would be foolish to contravene the manufactures instructions even though the difference between the old UK standard (BS3016) allows a variation in regulator setting of +/-5mB, and the same applies to new EU 30mB Standard (BSEN12864)

These two standards do have a limited regions of pressure range crossover when considering butane operation.

From a technical perspective there is a greater danger from over-gassing than under-gassing but both should be avoided.

 

[Mikey1]

I have checked on the cadac website and i believe cadacs are 30 mb so connecting to the caravan gas outlet is ok if its the later van with the fixed regulator.

If direct from a bottle with a standard regulator or gas outlet from a non fixed regulator then this is 37 ,work that one out??????

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Mikey,

In general most LPG appliances are designed to run on Butane or Propane, but some are very specific, and the only way you can tell is to check the data plate for the types of gas and working pressure they are approved to work on.

You should only use the gas and pressure stipulated by the appliance manufacture.

All new regulators will be to the 30mB standard, and that should not cause you any problem, but if you were to connect a 30mB appliance to a 37mb gas supply that is wrong and you may over gas the product.

Over gassing leads to incomplete combustion, more sooting, and most dangerous and increased level of the silent but deadly carbon Monoxide gas.

All gas appliances sold in the EU must by law carry the data plate with their approved gas type and pressure.

If you are unsure, then contact the manufacture.

 

[Mikey1]

Quick question John?

I understand what you are saying but

Caravan pre 2003/04 the internal appliences ie heater ,water heater, fridge and cooker have to be jetted correct?

What are they jetted at? 28 for Butane or 37 for propane?

If i use Butane at 28 mb am i causing an issue if they are jetted to 37 or visa versa?

That makes a difference of 9 mb out of the range of +-5mb.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Mikey,

I'm sorry if I did not make it clear in my previous answers.

Your original question was about a BBQ, which is not a standard piece of caravan equipment. My previous replies were aimed at that question. I can understand that you now have some questions about your whole caravan and its gas supplies.

The vast majority of original equipment caravan appliances manufactured before 03/04 were designed to run on 28mB Butane or 37mB Propane with no adjustment necessary to the appliances, the injector did not need to be changed if you decided to use the other gas, only the regulator.

The gasses are chemically different, but by running Butane at 28mB and Propane at 37mB, the gas appliances were designed to perform equally well.

So in your pre 03/04 caravan you should have no problem switching gases.

Since 2004, a new standardised gas pressure was introduced by the EU as 30mB +/-5mB. Gas appliance manufactures have had to review their designs and ensure they will work with the new standard pressure. In some cases, the design of an appliance may not have needed any alteration from the old standard, but in some, injectors size or form may have needed revising, primary air and venturi tubes may have needed to be changed.

Visually these mechanical changes would not be apparent so it cannot be assumed that a 30mB appliance is safe to be used on either of the old standard pressures 28 Butane or 37mB propane of vice-versa.

In light of the above your BBQ which is manufactured to the old UK standard is technically not compatible with your 2006 caravan gas supplies.

I am legally obliged to tell you that you should not connect your BBQ to the caravans gas supply, and you should provide it with it own separate supply that complies with its designed specification.

 

[Mikey1]

The Cadac i have is 30 mb which is ok to connect into my post 2004 caravan outlet.

If i run this cCadac from a propane bottle using the 37mm regulator i presume this is illegal?

Wow me and quite a few others,ill come quietly officer.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Mikey,

I cannot condone the use of a 30mB appliance on a 37mB supply. A relatively cheap answer is to get a 30mB regulator for your gas bottle.

 

[Mikey1]

Or i can carry on like i have before and like lots of other have never had an issue.

 

[marlot]

My Cadac came with two jets. One for 28/30/37mBar, and one for 50mBar (for the German market).

 

[Mikey1]

If one jet covers 28,30 and 37 then that blows the +-5 mb theory out of the water.

 

[RobinF]

There is a simple answer to this. You can only use the appliance on the gas pressure that is indicated on the data badge on the appliance. So if it says 37mbar that MUST be what it is run on, thats what it was designed to run on safely. A lot of the new apliances will be designed to run on 28/30/37mbar. Dont worry about the +/- 5mbar if it says 28/30/37 on the appliance it will be ok. I am a gas safe eng with LPG qualification and this change has caused lots of questions!

 

[Mikey1]

The fitted jet must be an average of all 3 then?

 

[forestgump]

I use a small propane bottle on my cadac with its own regulator,this bottle is also my back up for the van so i dont have 2 large bottles in the frontbut it goes through the van regulator .Thecadac is shown in its booklet with a cadac blue bottle but in the recipe book it is shown using a propane bottle,this is a problem if you stick to the heat and presure values.I find it ok and have had no problems.

 

[RobinF]

Mikey, I dont know I have not looked into it! All I need to know is what is on the badge, if it says 28/30/37Mbar then it is all ok!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Mikey,

I can sense frustration in your postings.

Unfortunately I cannot wave a magic wand and change the law, gas appliances must only be used on supplies of the correct pressure, They have been designed and approved for that and they may malfunction sometimes dangerously if they are not used on the correct pressure.

It is quite possible that some manufactures have been able to accommodate 28, 30 and 37mB operation with one injector, but just because one can achieve it, it does not mean all manufactures can. The data plate will have the information. If you are not sure then contact the appliance manufacture.

Even though it may be a common occurrence that people use the wrong gas pressure and get away with it, does not make it right, and no gas fitter or engineer can condone such and activity and retain their professional or moral integrity.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Mikey,

Just to add a comparison which may demonstrate the issue. Most of us have some electronic items (mobile phones, mp3 player's etc) that use plug-in power supplies to run or recharge the devices.

Many of these require different voltages to operate correctly. Some Nokia phones needed a 3.8V charger, others need 4.5V and some need 5V. Most of us would not dream of deliberately using the wrong charger even though the voltages are similar. We have an understanding that if we did use the wrong charger, it is likely the product wont work or may work incorrectly or it may be damaged.

There is a possibility that a product may appear to work when the wrong supply is used, but components may have their working life shortened, or the products output may be less good that it should be or in some cases the output may be unsafe even though it seems to be working correctly.

Some manufactures do arrange for the product to have a wide input range - some laptop computer power supplies are rated to work with mains supplies from 100Vac to 250V ac, giving them work wide compatibility, but you will only know by checking the data plate.

In all of the above cases, the only way to ensure correct operation is to check the data plates on the devices and power supplies to make sure you only use them in accordance with the manufactures instructions.

Gas appliances and gas supplies should be treated in exactly the same way.

 

[RobinF]

I agree totally with John L.

You MUST only use a gas appliance that is designed for the gas supply pressure even if you think that it works ok it is not! And if something does happen your insurance will be void.

As I have said and John L has the data badge on the appliance tells you what pressure it can run on, follow that and you are all OK.

 

[Mikey1]

Interesting reply from Cadac,their Safari and Carri models are all set to run off 30mb not all gas ranges

 

[BigTim]

Thanks for all replies

I had tried the BBQ on the caravan gas connection point, ie, connected to the 30mb bulkhead regulator. The BBQ produced only a minute flame so I removed the bottle from the 'van and connected the BBQ to directly to the cylinder with a 37mb regulator I had with me. The BBQ then worked fine but it was a lot of faffing about disconnecting the cylinder etc.

I'm a bit annoyed as I bought the BBQ to use WITH the caravan point. I didn't think to check the appliance rating - one lives and learns!!!! I'll probably give he BBQ to one of my grown up children- they're all tenters.

Does anyone know if small BBQs are manufactured to run at 30mb? I don't want anything the size of a Cadac - we've got too much "stuff" as it is!!!

Tim

 

[forestgump]

go back to my post and use the small bottle.

 

[BigTim]

Thanks for your replies eveyone.

I think we'll probably leave the bbq at home. I'm not really a great fan of BBQing to much work for what can be achieved more easily on the cooker!!!. We need to watch the weight this year as we have had a motor mover fitted to the 'van and I certainly don't want the weight of an extra cylinder or the "faff" of having to disconnect one of the 'van ones and fit a seperate regulator. There's always disposables if the fancy takes us in some sunny Croatian cove.

Thanks again.

Tim