GAS IT refillable gas bottles. Any views please?

[foggydave]

Hi
I am thinking of using refillable LPG bottles in my van. I have been looking at the GAS IT system.

" GAS IT

Has anyone got experience with these as they seem to fit the bill?
I already have an LPG connection on my Land Rover so can fill 'in car' on the fore courts.
Does anyone use a different system?
Thanks

 

[Sproket]

Hi Dave

I changed over to the Safefill system last year a full 11kg bottle weighs just over 17kg when full.

 

[JTQ]

Hi Dave

I changed over to the Safefill system last year a full 11kg bottle weighs just over 17kg when full.

We take it from that it fits without any issues in the pre 2006 Hymer Novas. So it also looks as if it will fit in the post 2006 ones as well, certainly up to those where they introduced the bulkhead regulator.

 

[Sproket]

Don't know about the later one's with the bulkhead mounted regulator but It fit's without a problem in my Nova.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hi
I am thinking of using refillable LPG bottles in my van. I have been looking at the GAS IT system..........

Has anyone got experience with these as they seem to fit the bill?
I already have an LPG connection on my Land Rover so can fill 'in car' on the fore courts.
Does anyone use a different system?
Thanks

Hello Foggy

Beware, Many garages that sell LPG for motive power are not allowed to refill portable gas cylinders.

 

[emmerson]

I drive a LPG powered car, and do not have a refillable bottle for the reason Prof John gives - most LPG pumps have a sign on them prohibiting the filling of bottles!
So where do you refill it?

 

[foggydave]

Hi Thanks for the replies
Are the fore court signs for any gas bottle filling? I thought it meant filling with the bottle loose outside on the fore court apron. So does this mean you cannot fill a bottle inside your van or car? I would have the same system as my LPG Land Rover but instead of a fixed tank inside for the cars use it would be a detatchable gas bottle inside.
What is this talk of regulators. Is it the regultor height or another problem?
SafeFill bottles look ok. Are the inlet fittings the same as Calor Propane or will I need an adapter? On the GasIt bottle you have to have an adapter (more £) The SafeFill web site says they are completely out of stock at the moment which is a tad suspicous.

 

[Sproket]

I drive a LPG powered car, and do not have a refillable bottle for the reason Prof John gives - most LPG pumps have a sign on them prohibiting the filling of bottles!
So where do you refill it?

Have a look at the map for the reffilling centres

The SafeFill web site says they are completely out of stock at the moment which is a tad suspicous.

Quite possibly it's because people are fed up of the Calor light situation, there are thousands of bottles being recalled, but there are only so many hours in a day for this work to be done / worked on, maybe some of the distributors / refill centers have some ?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hi Thanks for the replies
Are the fore court signs for any gas bottle filling? I thought it meant filling with the bottle loose outside on the fore court apron. So does this mean you cannot fill a bottle inside your van or car? I would have the same system as my LPG Land Rover but instead of a fixed tank inside for the cars use it would be a detatchable gas bottle inside.
What is this talk of regulators............

Hello Dave,
The situation is a little grey, You would need to clarify the matter with the forecourt owner. But technically there are several differences between the permanent installation in a car and portable LPG cylinders. I would assume that if a cylinder is designed and sold as a portable one - such as the ones you are suggesting - then that type regardless of where it is located is prohibited.

One of the concerns is that unlike LPG systems fitted to cars where they are installed and certified by the fitter, the same is not true of portable bottles Whilst the bottles have to be manufactured to meet a BS standard for sale in the UK, the way they are installed in a caravan is not closely controlled. So there is a greater chance of a portable bottle system being a danger not only to the user, but to the equipment at the filling site.

You should never attempt to refill a portable LPG cylinder whilst inside a car or vehicle. The must be refilled in a properly ventilated area with no gas traps (self contained areas where PG can accumulate.) Just consider the very real danger:- When filling such containers the pump is delivering Liquefied PG. A leak of only 4ml (less than a teaspoonful) will expand by about 250 times to make a Litre of saturated gas. That gas is heavier than air and will collect at the lowest point if in a confined space.That only needs access to 10 to 20 litres of air to produce an explosive mixture. There are far too many pockets and locations within a vehicle that could allow PG to accumulate. - Simple not a good idea. Highly dangerous, and probably illegal.

For the same reason it is unsafe to carry LPG cylinders in closed spaces, such as cars. Portable LPG cylinders must always be transported turned off, in secured upright position with free ventilation all around .

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Prof
In a recent PCv magazine Alde said it was okay to run their heating system whilst on the move.
So the gas tap will be open. :evil:
Fortunately as I do not have an Alde system I don't have to worry B)

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hi Prof
In a recent PCv magazine Alde said it was okay to run their heating system whilst on the move.
So the gas tap will be open. :evil:
Fortunately as I do not have an Alde system I don't have to worry B)

Hello Dusty,
I'm certain that quite a few gas appliances would survive being used whilst on the move with no reduced safety. All externally flued appliances have to be designed to withstand different wind directions and speeds. If they blew out the flame failure devices would operate and stop the gas flow.BUT its not so much running whilst on the move that posses the danger, its what happens in the event of a road traffic incidents , The appliance may well shut down, but the gas supply to the appliance would still be 'live' and if the supply pipe became damaged in the incident it would allow gas to escape- and emergency services' nightmare. I would disregard Alde's comment unless your gas bottles or main regulator have an excess gas flow detector which will lock off in the event of a severed pipe.

 

[Beagler]

Thought you may find this interesting

"Formerly LPGA Information Sheet 24 – June 2007
FILLING OF USER OWNED, PORTABLE REFILLABLE LPG
CYLINDERS AT AUTOGAS REFUELLING SITES
It is our advice that user owned, portable LPG cylinders should not be
refilled at autogas refuelling sites.

Vessels which are attached to a vehicle for heating or cooking (on camper
vans or similar) present similar risks on filling to those for propulsion
purposes and may be permitted to be re-filled at autogas refuelling sites
provided they:
• remain in-situ for refilling; and
• are fitted with a device to physically prevent filling beyond 80%; and
• are connected to a fixed filling connector which is not part of the
vessel.
UK Health and Safety law, particularly the Health and Safety at Work Act, the Dangerous
Substances and Explosive Atmospheres Regulations and the Carriage of Dangerous
Goods and Use of Transportable Pressure Equipment Regulations, impose significant
duties on the site operator to ensure safety. Autogas refuelling sites are places of work
and their personnel have responsibility for safety to everyone on the site, including the
general public. They authorise the flow of gas from the dispenser and they may be
considered, in law, the filler.
Safe filling of LPG cylinders requires appropriate expertise and/or equipment. Staff at
autogas refuelling sites cannot fulfil statutory obligations as they have neither.
Were there to be any accident the site operator could be liable to prosecution.
This view has been confirmed in the Minutes of the HSE Petroleum Enforcement
Liaison Group meeting of 7th July 2005 which states “PLAs should consider
issuing a prohibition notice if their inspectors discover a site which allows
members of the public to refill gas cylinders”.

 

[Surfer]

Thought you may find this interesting

"Formerly LPGA Information Sheet 24 – June 2007
FILLING OF USER OWNED, PORTABLE REFILLABLE LPG
CYLINDERS AT AUTOGAS REFUELLING SITES
It is our advice that user owned, portable LPG cylinders should not be
refilled at autogas refuelling sites.

Vessels which are attached to a vehicle for heating or cooking (on camper
vans or similar) present similar risks on filling to those for propulsion
purposes and may be permitted to be re-filled at autogas refuelling sites
provided they:
• remain in-situ for refilling; and
• are fitted with a device to physically prevent filling beyond 80%; and
• are connected to a fixed filling connector which is not part of the
vessel.
UK Health and Safety law, particularly the Health and Safety at Work Act, the Dangerous
Substances and Explosive Atmospheres Regulations and the Carriage of Dangerous
Goods and Use of Transportable Pressure Equipment Regulations, impose significant
duties on the site operator to ensure safety. Autogas refuelling sites are places of work
and their personnel have responsibility for safety to everyone on the site, including the
general public. They authorise the flow of gas from the dispenser and they may be
considered, in law, the filler.
Safe filling of LPG cylinders requires appropriate expertise and/or equipment. Staff at
autogas refuelling sites cannot fulfil statutory obligations as they have neither.
Were there to be any accident the site operator could be liable to prosecution.
This view has been confirmed in the Minutes of the HSE Petroleum Enforcement
Liaison Group meeting of 7th July 2005 which states “PLAs should consider
issuing a prohibition notice if their inspectors discover a site which allows
members of the public to refill gas cylinders”.

Very informative however it woulf not surprise me if it was Calor that was putting out a lot of scare stories regarding refillable cyclinders. Come to think of it Calor refill their cylinders anyway. The Safefill cylinder has the cut off at 80% and can be filled with the same nozzle used to fill the LPG tank on a car. In theory a car has a portable refilling tank as it can be moved from location to location.

 

[Beagler]

Here is a link to HSE

http://www.hse.gov.uk/lau/lacs/52-20.htm

 

[Surfer]

Here is a link to HSE

]http://www.hse.gov.uk/lau/lacs/52-20.htm

http://www.hse.gov.uk/lau/lacs/52-20.htm[/quote
That specifically refers to the use of adaptors for refiling. The Safefill cylinder does not use an adaptor and has a cut off safety at 80% exactly the same fittings as a car and same safety measures as a car.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Surfer.

The first document Beagler points show is from AUTOGAS, and represents that company's policies, Other supplier will have their own policies concerning the practice.

Provided a company's policies stay within the bounds set by statutory regulations they have the absolute right to decide what products they allow to be used on their premises. The company is responsible for Health and Safety on the site, and they are required to take whatever measures they consider necessary to to protect health and safety.

In their advice the key points to look at are:-

FILLING OF USER OWNED, PORTABLE REFILLABLE LPG
CYLINDERS AT AUTOGAS REFUELLING SITES
It is our advice that user owned, portable LPG cylinders should not be
refilled at autogas refuelling sites.

If you own your own portable refillable vessel, then this bar applies regardless of what safety features it may have built into the vessel. Its worth considering the fact that the majority of personnel who operate filling sites will not be fully versed in the the capabilities of every user owned refillable vessel, and thus they should err on the side of safety which means not allowing any portable bottle to be filled on site.

Vessels which are attached to a vehicle for heating or cooking (on camper
vans or similar) present similar risks on filling to those for propulsion
purposes and may be permitted to be re-filled at autogas refuelling sites
provided they:
• remain in-situ for refilling; and
• are fitted with a device to physically prevent filling beyond 80%; and
• are connected to a fixed filling connector which is not part of the
vessel...................

The final point also prevent solo vessels from being refilled.

The HSE web page only directs the relevant official bodies that oversee the licensing of sites to liaise, and to observe the LPGA's codes of practice. It does not empower the consumer to try and force an automotive gas provider to make their facilities available to owner used portable vessels. That decision is strictly still within the realms of company policy.

 

[Surfer]

Hello Surfer.

The first document Beagler points show is from AUTOGAS, and represents that company's policies, Other supplier will have their own policies concerning the practice.

Provided a company's policies stay within the bounds set by statutory regulations they have the absolute right to decide what products they allow to be used on their premises. The company is responsible for Health and Safety on the site, and they are required to take whatever measures they consider necessary to to protect health and safety.

In their advice the key points to look at are:-

FILLING OF USER OWNED, PORTABLE REFILLABLE LPG
CYLINDERS AT AUTOGAS REFUELLING SITES
It is our advice that user owned, portable LPG cylinders should not be
refilled at autogas refuelling sites.

If you own your own portable refillable vessel, then this bar applies regardless of what safety features it may have built into the vessel. Its worth considering the fact that the majority of personnel who operate filling sites will not be fully versed in the the capabilities of every user owned refillable vessel, and thus they should err on the side of safety which means not allowing any portable bottle to be filled on site.

Vessels which are attached to a vehicle for heating or cooking (on camper
vans or similar) present similar risks on filling to those for propulsion
purposes and may be permitted to be re-filled at autogas refuelling sites
provided they:
• remain in-situ for refilling; and
• are fitted with a device to physically prevent filling beyond 80%; and
• are connected to a fixed filling connector which is not part of the
vessel...................

The final point also prevent solo vessels from being refilled.

The HSE web page only directs the relevant official bodies that oversee the licensing of sites to liaise, and to observe the LPGA's codes of practice. It does not empower the consumer to try and force an automotive gas provider to make their facilities available to owner used portable vessels. That decision is strictly still within the realms of company policy.

I agree that they can make their own policies however they offer advice but do not ban outright refillable cylinders from being refilled. They agree that Gaslow bottles can be refilled if they remain in the vehicle as all Gaslow cylinders are portable. They seem to contradict themselves in one way.

 

[Beagler]

In the Highway code there are things that are illegal to do and there are things that are codes of practice. If a contravention of a code of practice results in an accident that contravention although not illegal will still be considered as evidence in a court of law.

 

[Surfer]

In the Highway code there are things that are illegal to do and there are things that are codes of practice. If a contravention of a code of practice results in an accident that contravention although not illegal will still be considered as evidence in a court of law.

Not sure about what the above has to do with refillable gas cylinders?

 

[Beagler]

In the Highway code there are things that are illegal to do and there are things that are codes of practice. If a contravention of a code of practice results in an accident that contravention although not illegal will still be considered as evidence in a court of law.

Not sure about what the above has to do with refillable gas cylinders?

The same applies for the HSE guidelines.

 

[Surfer]

It gets more puzzling as I am trying work out the conenction between Highway Code, HSE and refillable gas bottles?

 

[Beagler]

It gets more puzzling as I am trying work out the conenction between Highway Code, HSE and refillable gas bottles?

Dont worry about it, life's too short.

 

[ProfJohnL]

..............I agree that they can make their own policies however they offer advice but do not ban outright refillable cylinders from being refilled. They agree that Gaslow bottles can be refilled if they remain in the vehicle as all Gaslow cylinders are portable. They seem to contradict themselves in one way.

Perhaps you should point out the non compliant behaviours of the sites that allow Gaslow owners to refill, as the policy document clearly indicated they should not.