Its in black and white on a gas hose manufactures website,you would think they have got it right?
the third regulator in the system may not strictly be regulator but a flow control valve that switches from one cylinder to the other.It does not control flow rate or pressure but direction.Being on the low pressure side then the pipe could be longer.
I can't agree totally with everything Damien says although he may be qualified ibn his field, however I agree about the regulator being boiled. I have never doen it or intended to do it.
Firstly it seems that there is not issue with the gas, the issue is with the rubber gas hose otherwise we would still have the same issue with the flexible steel hose.
Please explain why you think a gas regulator on the cyliner feeding into the bulkhead regulator is dangerous and unsafe as I don't understand your logic on this.
The 1 metre gas hose was sold to us by a dealer and no mention that it was illegal to use in a caravan locker. In your opinion why shoudl it be illegal? At least with the 1 metre gas hose I don't have to swap cylinders in the middle of the night just becaued the hose is only 450mmm long. Whether I have a 450mm or a 1 metre is not going to stop the gunk getting into the bulkhead regulator.
Under SOGA you can claim if it is within a reasonable time which would be about three years. The dealer would be obliged to replace the gas hose and the regulator at their expense as any reasonable person would expect both these to last at leaast 3 years. If they don't want to do this, TS or small claims court will sort it out.
Firstly it seems that there is not issue with the gas, the issue is with the rubber gas hose otherwise we would still have the same issue with the flexible steel hose.
Please explain why you think a gas regulator on the cyliner feeding into the bulkhead regulator is dangerous and unsafe as I don't understand your logic on this.
The 1 metre gas hose was sold to us by a dealer and no mention that it was illegal to use in a caravan locker. In your opinion why shoudl it be illegal? At least with the 1 metre gas hose I don't have to swap cylinders in the middle of the night just becaued the hose is only 450mmm long. Whether I have a 450mm or a 1 metre is not going to stop the gunk getting into the bulkhead regulator.
Under SOGA you can claim if it is within a reasonable time which would be about three years. The dealer would be obliged to replace the gas hose and the regulator at their expense as any reasonable person would expect both these to last at leaast 3 years. If they don't want to do this, TS or small claims court will sort it out.
Hello Ian,
" In your opinion why shoudl it be illegal?", There is no point in asking Damian why he thinks it is illegal. Damian had no part in drafting the regs, he is only the messenger.
Damian
Moderator
Ian, it is not my feelings which count, or what I think about gas installations.
I do not write the regulations, I have no input to the writing of the regulations.
I am simply passing on what is required as a matter of law.
I also have to abide by the regulations in order to maintain my registration to work on LPG systems.
Personally I couldnt give two hoots what you , or anyone else has as a supply system, but should you have cause to need my services for anything gas related, I would, by law, have to reinstate the system to the EN1949 requirements before carrying out any remedial work.
You state "Firstly it seems that there is not issue with the gas, the issue is with the rubber gas hose otherwise we would still have the same issue with the flexible steel hose."
That is wrong, there IS an issue with the quality of the gas, and there are plenty of instances of stainless steel pipes being contaminated with th same oily residue. They are not immune.
I do not write the regulations, I have no input to the writing of the regulations.
I am simply passing on what is required as a matter of law.
I also have to abide by the regulations in order to maintain my registration to work on LPG systems.
Personally I couldnt give two hoots what you , or anyone else has as a supply system, but should you have cause to need my services for anything gas related, I would, by law, have to reinstate the system to the EN1949 requirements before carrying out any remedial work.
You state "Firstly it seems that there is not issue with the gas, the issue is with the rubber gas hose otherwise we would still have the same issue with the flexible steel hose."
That is wrong, there IS an issue with the quality of the gas, and there are plenty of instances of stainless steel pipes being contaminated with th same oily residue. They are not immune.
Been reading all the posts re the regulators - is the stainless steel pigtail better than the rubber one? Views would be appreciated. Also with regards to the length our dealer quite happily sold us a 1.5m rubber pigtail with nothing at all said about blockages,the maximum length allowed and stainless steel appearing to be better! Why did these bulkhead regulators come into being bearing in mind the problems there seems to be with them. We and I suspect most of the caravanning community who have been caravanning for many years quite happily used gas bottle regulators. We only once had to replace one that went wrong, this after about 6-7 years of use.
My point exactly Jenny why are these dealers still selling hoses longer than 450mm.
I purchased my 1.5mt steel ones at the show from the Gaslow stand and was talking to the Gaslow guy saying i had my regualtor changed on my 2009 van!! he then said you wont get anymore issues with these hoses!!!!,but what he has sold me is against the law?
Am i now invalidating my insurance as my van doesnt comply with the gas regs?
Regards to the oil in the gas i did read that they dont have to clean the empties so much now so they can build up the oil in the bottle.
I purchased my 1.5mt steel ones at the show from the Gaslow stand and was talking to the Gaslow guy saying i had my regualtor changed on my 2009 van!! he then said you wont get anymore issues with these hoses!!!!,but what he has sold me is against the law?
Am i now invalidating my insurance as my van doesnt comply with the gas regs?
Regards to the oil in the gas i did read that they dont have to clean the empties so much now so they can build up the oil in the bottle.
Quite a debate ! And all unnecessary if 'someone' had not decided to change from the older, cylinder mounted regulator system to one which breaks all basic rules of safety for hazardous materials.
With the old system the high pressure gas qs contained in the cylinder and regulator and the flexible contained only low pressure. Further, some of the regulators were flow limited such that in the event of the flexible failing the amount of gas escaping was restricted and the cyliner housing was fully vented to outside atmosphere.
Now we have flexibles containing high pressure, we have end connections with washers which can easlily get misplaced, mis fitted or over tightened, regulators sometimes mounted below cylinder outlet levels any and all of which would fail any decent HAZOP (Hazzard and Operability Study) as used for years in chemical and other industries. And to what benefit ?
With the old system the high pressure gas qs contained in the cylinder and regulator and the flexible contained only low pressure. Further, some of the regulators were flow limited such that in the event of the flexible failing the amount of gas escaping was restricted and the cyliner housing was fully vented to outside atmosphere.
Now we have flexibles containing high pressure, we have end connections with washers which can easlily get misplaced, mis fitted or over tightened, regulators sometimes mounted below cylinder outlet levels any and all of which would fail any decent HAZOP (Hazzard and Operability Study) as used for years in chemical and other industries. And to what benefit ?
This stupid regulator that has been forced upon as caused nothing but problems yet we all go along with it. When they first appeared a pal of ours had problems in France, dirty oily gunge in the reg and pipework so reverted back to reg on bottle.Now I know for some reason you are not supposed to do this but over the years since we know of quite a few all year round caravaners have done this on a permanent basis without a problem, No body has died and best of all no gunge blocking regulators J.lo
J.Lo as I saiud we have a regulator on the bottle it self with the gas hose from this connected into the bulkhead regulator so as far as I am concerned we are more than complying with the regulations however some posters disagree but seem unable to back their argument up with a regulation that forbids two regulators.
Hello Mikey,
The seller is not responsible for the purpose to which the customer uses the supplied product. Therefore the it is not the seller that is breaking the law, only the person who fits or uses it for an unlawful purpose.
The seller may choose to refrain from selling any product if they believe it may be used in an unlawful way, but they are not obliged to refuse a sale under those circumstances.
Also consider the fact that the pipe may not be destined for a touring caravan, but another LPG installation where such a restriction on gas pipe length may not apply.
Consider the builders merchant who sells bricks, One of the bricks may be used to smash windows, but that is not the merchants responsibility is it.
It is sometimes necessary to look at the wider picture.
The seller is not responsible for the purpose to which the customer uses the supplied product. Therefore the it is not the seller that is breaking the law, only the person who fits or uses it for an unlawful purpose.
The seller may choose to refrain from selling any product if they believe it may be used in an unlawful way, but they are not obliged to refuse a sale under those circumstances.
Also consider the fact that the pipe may not be destined for a touring caravan, but another LPG installation where such a restriction on gas pipe length may not apply.
Consider the builders merchant who sells bricks, One of the bricks may be used to smash windows, but that is not the merchants responsibility is it.
It is sometimes necessary to look at the wider picture.
I actually told Gaslow what i was doing and they still "knowingly" sold me the pigtails.
I think we agree to disagree !
I think we agree to disagree !
John L you are not correct in your quotes.
If you has specifically asked Gaslow if these hoses will fit there post 2004 caravan and they have said yes and they then sell them to you,they had accepted responsibilty for the goods supplied irrespective of what you does with them.
The important bit is you have ASKED so infact Gaslow are selling you products that are against regulations.
"Consider the builders merchant who sells bricks, One of the bricks may be used to smash windows, but that is not the merchants responsibility is it."
If the buyer told the merchant this is what he was going to do with said bricks.
The Builders merchant is then responsible for selling them to him knowing what he was going to do with them?
As you have said look as the wider picture.
If you has specifically asked Gaslow if these hoses will fit there post 2004 caravan and they have said yes and they then sell them to you,they had accepted responsibilty for the goods supplied irrespective of what you does with them.
The important bit is you have ASKED so infact Gaslow are selling you products that are against regulations.
"Consider the builders merchant who sells bricks, One of the bricks may be used to smash windows, but that is not the merchants responsibility is it."
If the buyer told the merchant this is what he was going to do with said bricks.
The Builders merchant is then responsible for selling them to him knowing what he was going to do with them?
As you have said look as the wider picture.
Hello Mikey
The retailer may have sold the goods that may be used contrary to the regulations, but the regulations only apply to the person who fits or uses the equipment, NOT THE SUPPLIER.
With the exception that there are certain specified products that are controlled by Government legislation on how they may be sold, (e.g. drugs, fire arms etc.) retailers can sell anything to anyone. They are not responsible for the way the product is used.
Gas piping is not a controlled product.
Consider the implications if retailers were to become responsible for all the silly and illegal acts that the public do, garages would not be able to sell cars that exceed 70mph. Pubs would not be able to sell alcohol (though there are specific regulations concerning the selling of alcohol to minors and similarly with cigarettes where the offence is "selling") Closer to home, caravan dealers would not be able to sell a caravan if it broke any of the weight restrictions of the car you own.
Retailers have the right to refuse to serve anyone, so they may if they wish decline to sell products that are likely to be used incorrectly, but the are not obliged to restrict sales in that area. It is a matter of choice and conscience for the retailer. You may feel they have given the wrong impression about the suitability of the product they have sold, but as always the buyer has to be aware.
The retailer may have sold the goods that may be used contrary to the regulations, but the regulations only apply to the person who fits or uses the equipment, NOT THE SUPPLIER.
With the exception that there are certain specified products that are controlled by Government legislation on how they may be sold, (e.g. drugs, fire arms etc.) retailers can sell anything to anyone. They are not responsible for the way the product is used.
Gas piping is not a controlled product.
Consider the implications if retailers were to become responsible for all the silly and illegal acts that the public do, garages would not be able to sell cars that exceed 70mph. Pubs would not be able to sell alcohol (though there are specific regulations concerning the selling of alcohol to minors and similarly with cigarettes where the offence is "selling") Closer to home, caravan dealers would not be able to sell a caravan if it broke any of the weight restrictions of the car you own.
Retailers have the right to refuse to serve anyone, so they may if they wish decline to sell products that are likely to be used incorrectly, but the are not obliged to restrict sales in that area. It is a matter of choice and conscience for the retailer. You may feel they have given the wrong impression about the suitability of the product they have sold, but as always the buyer has to be aware.
At least if someone says to me my installation is illegal i can say Gaslow recommended it as i asked for their advice.
My 2004 Bailey Senator, along with ALL the hundreds of other senators built in that year, ALL had a standard fit THREE regulator gas system, called a
"truma triomatic automatic propane gas change-over system"
So all quite legal back then, the dealer connected the propane to the system, three consecutive services were all carried out by main dealer and AWS mobile engineer.
Nobody has said my installation is illegal.
In addition back in 1997 my avondale came fitted with a hose longer than said 450mm or what ever it is.
So why are "we" now saying BOTH these installations are not to the regs?
This makes little sense to me.
I can see a augment for all caravans from a certain age to comply, but to alter existing installations, is clearly risible.
"truma triomatic automatic propane gas change-over system"
So all quite legal back then, the dealer connected the propane to the system, three consecutive services were all carried out by main dealer and AWS mobile engineer.
Nobody has said my installation is illegal.
In addition back in 1997 my avondale came fitted with a hose longer than said 450mm or what ever it is.
So why are "we" now saying BOTH these installations are not to the regs?
This makes little sense to me.
I can see a augment for all caravans from a certain age to comply, but to alter existing installations, is clearly risible.
Hello Ian ,
Going back to your posting of 15 May 2010 09:18 AM, in which you express the view that hoses that release residue that blocks the regulator or other appliances should be replaced under SoGA.
I support that view to the extent that the product may seem to be less than fit for purpose, but the difficulty I see is that the hose has a maximum authorised life span, as marked on the pipe, and as it is susceptible to degradation over tine, and probably exposure to environmental conditions, its "product life" is quite short and may be less than the replace by ( do not use after
date.
Supplier liability diminishes over the life expectancy of the product and also with levels of use so it might be argued that the pipe that at three years is producing residue has had its working life and is therefore no longer the responsibility of the supplier.
As an example of the same sort of life time issues, consider the tyres on a car. They can wear out far before the sell by date expires.
I strongly suspect that any SoGA type action would fail at three years for flexible gas pipework
Going back to your posting of 15 May 2010 09:18 AM, in which you express the view that hoses that release residue that blocks the regulator or other appliances should be replaced under SoGA.
I support that view to the extent that the product may seem to be less than fit for purpose, but the difficulty I see is that the hose has a maximum authorised life span, as marked on the pipe, and as it is susceptible to degradation over tine, and probably exposure to environmental conditions, its "product life" is quite short and may be less than the replace by ( do not use after
date.Supplier liability diminishes over the life expectancy of the product and also with levels of use so it might be argued that the pipe that at three years is producing residue has had its working life and is therefore no longer the responsibility of the supplier.
As an example of the same sort of life time issues, consider the tyres on a car. They can wear out far before the sell by date expires.
I strongly suspect that any SoGA type action would fail at three years for flexible gas pipework
It maybe interesting that, if you ask for English instructions for the non-GB Triomatic, it gives you the option but does not allow you to select it?!
The GB version however only has one language and that of course is English.
http://www.truma.com/_anweisungen/Truma-Katalog/gb/gasvers_freizeit/triomatic.html
I have a duomatic system here and by the date on the hose, from 1980, (hose is stiff but otherwise still in very good nick!). Badged up as 'Carver' and 14" (37mb), but removing the badge shows it to be two 30mb regulators??
Personally speaking since 2004 and the regulator problems, I've often advocated fitting a longer hose to allow a deep loop from bottle to regulator, this to form a 'trap' to attempt to stop the oil from the bottle reaching said regulator.
Under better circumstance, it would always be the opposite advice and to fit as short as is practicable hose. This to keep it out of harms way and most probably the sole reason behind the 450mm stipulation
The GB version however only has one language and that of course is English.
http://www.truma.com/_anweisungen/Truma-Katalog/gb/gasvers_freizeit/triomatic.html
I have a duomatic system here and by the date on the hose, from 1980, (hose is stiff but otherwise still in very good nick!). Badged up as 'Carver' and 14" (37mb), but removing the badge shows it to be two 30mb regulators??
Personally speaking since 2004 and the regulator problems, I've often advocated fitting a longer hose to allow a deep loop from bottle to regulator, this to form a 'trap' to attempt to stop the oil from the bottle reaching said regulator.
Under better circumstance, it would always be the opposite advice and to fit as short as is practicable hose. This to keep it out of harms way and most probably the sole reason behind the 450mm stipulation
John L
I purchased a new Sterling last year and my dealer fitted a steel pigtails length 750mm i didnt ask him too,should i ask him to change it?
Next time you go on a caravan site or a rally look at how many people are using a gas bottle outside the front locker of the van.
They must be using a longer hose than 450mm right or wrong nobody seems to be bothered about regs.
I purchased a new Sterling last year and my dealer fitted a steel pigtails length 750mm i didnt ask him too,should i ask him to change it?
Next time you go on a caravan site or a rally look at how many people are using a gas bottle outside the front locker of the van.
They must be using a longer hose than 450mm right or wrong nobody seems to be bothered about regs.
Hello Michael L,
I'm not sure why you have directed your point to me. I have not questioned the allowed lengths set out by the regulations. I do not know what are the allowed lengths of pigtail for touring caravan, as I do not have a current set of regulations to refer too. However I assume that Damian is correct in what he says.
My point has been to confirm that the regulations in question will only apply to the fitter and user of a system, not to the supplier of parts. It is therefore up to the fitter to ensure that the components used are compliant before fitting them.
It is however erroneous to assume that just because some people have free standing LPG supplies with long pipes that it is legitimate. It certainly is not advisable on grounds of safety.
It just the same as driver who exceed the speed limit, yes you can do it but it is not legal just because others do it.
Perhaps Damian might like to respond to your posting.
I'm not sure why you have directed your point to me. I have not questioned the allowed lengths set out by the regulations. I do not know what are the allowed lengths of pigtail for touring caravan, as I do not have a current set of regulations to refer too. However I assume that Damian is correct in what he says.
My point has been to confirm that the regulations in question will only apply to the fitter and user of a system, not to the supplier of parts. It is therefore up to the fitter to ensure that the components used are compliant before fitting them.
It is however erroneous to assume that just because some people have free standing LPG supplies with long pipes that it is legitimate. It certainly is not advisable on grounds of safety.
It just the same as driver who exceed the speed limit, yes you can do it but it is not legal just because others do it.
Perhaps Damian might like to respond to your posting.
Damian
Moderator
The only thing I can re state is the lengths of pigtil allowed by the regulations, namely EN1949 for high pressure pigtails.
That is a maximum of 450mm for touring caravans and motorhomes, unless th cylinders are on a slide out tray(as is the case with some motorhomes)where 750mm may be used.
A dealer fitting 750mm to a touring caravan is wrong, but then most dealers and most sales staff have no idea about gas regulations, and in a lot of cases have no idea about anything relating to caravan safety.
Take a recent posting about something as innocuous as jacking points, where the poster stated that even the dealer had no idea where to jack the van.
Yes on site a lot of people do use long hoses and cylinders outside the locker, however, they are normally the cylinder mounted regulators, and the owners are taking a big risk, as the regulators should not be exposed to rain and th cylinders should not be exposed to direct sunlight for long periods of time.
Whilst it does happen that does not make it right, and the effects of cylinder pressure gas entering the van pipework when a regulator fails due to water entering th working parts and rusting the spring out is devastating, not only for th eowner, but also for anyone else within a large radius.
You state "right or wrong nobody seems to be bothered about regs."
What is actually the case is that many people are totally unaware of the regulations and cannot be bothered to find out, some are deliberately ignoring the regulations "because they know better"
Of course one of the usual answers is "I have been vanning for xxx number of years and nothing has happened",,,,,,it always happens to the "other" person.
At the end of the day people will do what they will, however that does not make it right, and they are totally disregarding the wellbeing of other site users.
That is a maximum of 450mm for touring caravans and motorhomes, unless th cylinders are on a slide out tray(as is the case with some motorhomes)where 750mm may be used.
A dealer fitting 750mm to a touring caravan is wrong, but then most dealers and most sales staff have no idea about gas regulations, and in a lot of cases have no idea about anything relating to caravan safety.
Take a recent posting about something as innocuous as jacking points, where the poster stated that even the dealer had no idea where to jack the van.
Yes on site a lot of people do use long hoses and cylinders outside the locker, however, they are normally the cylinder mounted regulators, and the owners are taking a big risk, as the regulators should not be exposed to rain and th cylinders should not be exposed to direct sunlight for long periods of time.
Whilst it does happen that does not make it right, and the effects of cylinder pressure gas entering the van pipework when a regulator fails due to water entering th working parts and rusting the spring out is devastating, not only for th eowner, but also for anyone else within a large radius.
You state "right or wrong nobody seems to be bothered about regs."
What is actually the case is that many people are totally unaware of the regulations and cannot be bothered to find out, some are deliberately ignoring the regulations "because they know better"
Of course one of the usual answers is "I have been vanning for xxx number of years and nothing has happened",,,,,,it always happens to the "other" person.
At the end of the day people will do what they will, however that does not make it right, and they are totally disregarding the wellbeing of other site users.
I don't understand your reasoning regarding water getting into a regulator. Surely if water can get in, the regulator is not fit for purpose as then gas could also escape the same way water is getting in.
Secondly if the gas was escaping the water could not get in until all the gas had expired. The chances of a gas bottle exploding due to sunlight heat are probably impossible. Doesn't gas have a water content anyway?
We had two gas bottles that used to stand in the African sunlight and heat with temperatures in excess of 40 degrees C and had no issues and also did not hear of any one else having issues. They were calor gas cylinders.
Secondly if the gas was escaping the water could not get in until all the gas had expired. The chances of a gas bottle exploding due to sunlight heat are probably impossible. Doesn't gas have a water content anyway?
We had two gas bottles that used to stand in the African sunlight and heat with temperatures in excess of 40 degrees C and had no issues and also did not hear of any one else having issues. They were calor gas cylinders.
Ian, there is an air vent hole at the top of all regulator to ensure no back pressure above the regulators diaphragm, this holes position can on some poorly designed model regs actually guide rain water/dew/condensation inside, others are not so susceptible.
When though water enters corrosion is inevitable and the correct operation of the regulator is compromised. Beyond that, if water actually freezes in the hole it is blocked and the regulator will simply not regulate as it's designed!
Especially then for outside use, it is a common misconception, that the regulator should be fixed too the bottle with the regulator vertical, this is incorrect for the reasons given above and the regulator should be fixed with said vent hole facing downward where water from any source is always falling away.
Of course with clip on butane regulators this is not possible and some form of protection is required to prevent water getting inside, which really means having the bottles covered/inside the gas locker?!
When though water enters corrosion is inevitable and the correct operation of the regulator is compromised. Beyond that, if water actually freezes in the hole it is blocked and the regulator will simply not regulate as it's designed!
Especially then for outside use, it is a common misconception, that the regulator should be fixed too the bottle with the regulator vertical, this is incorrect for the reasons given above and the regulator should be fixed with said vent hole facing downward where water from any source is always falling away.
Of course with clip on butane regulators this is not possible and some form of protection is required to prevent water getting inside, which really means having the bottles covered/inside the gas locker?!
Hello Ian
Question "I don't understand your reasoning regarding water getting into a regulator. Surely if water can get in, the regulator is not fit for purpose as then gas could also escape the same way water is getting in."
A regulator has a chamber that is divided by a flexible diagram. On one side is the gas, and on the other is the atmosphere. When we say a regulator has an output pressure of 30mBar, we actually mean +30mBarrealtive to the atmospheric pressure. For the regulator to maintain that pressure differential, the air side of the chamber has to ventilate with the external atmosphere. It does that through a small hole. If you check the installation instructions for regulators you will see they call for the regulator to be protected from rain or other sources of water.
There are two dangers of water getting in to the air side of the chamber, one is the spring that biases the diagram, may start to corrode and eventually fail, and secondly as the regulator is effectively the expansion chamber for the high pressure gas from the bottle, as it expands it cools. It may cool the air side sufficiently for any water to turn to ice, which will obviously compromise the action of the spring and diaphragm.
I encountered a problem on a customer's caravan once where the gas pressure was widely out and variable. I found that a price sticker had be stuck over the breather hole. Removing the sticker corrected the problem.
Question "Water could not get in until all the gas had expired"
For the reasons stated above, there is no communication between the gas side and the air side in the regulator so admittance of water to the air side is not dependant on the gas having run out.
Question "The chances of a gas bottle exploding due to sunlight heat are probably impossible"
To a large extent that may be true. Calor and some other suppliers actually incorporate a pressure relief valve in the brass valve assembly. Under direct sunlight, the pressure in the bottle can rise substantially, and the excess pressure may be vented. That obviously has safety implications as the vent gas may be ignited. It is unlikely that any these bottles would explode, because for the gas to ignite it has to have enough oxidant (Oxygen) available, and there is none inside the an LPG bottle. But the venting will feed an external flame. If the make of bottle does not have a PRV, then the internal pressure may continue to build. In theory there is a possibility that the bottle may rupture due to internal pressures, and that would be catastrophic. Propane has more potential for that as its temperature related vapour pressure is much higher than Butane's.
Question "Doesn't gas have a water content anyway"?
LPG (liquefied Petroleum gas) is a hydrocarbon fuel. It is part of a series of chemical compounds that are created by combinations of Hydrogen and Carbon atoms. The range includes Petrol, diesel along with Propane, Butane and many other less well known CH combinations.
Pure Propane is C3H8 and Pure Butane is C4H10 Most commercial grades of Propane and Butane contain other Hydro Carbons but will meet the requirements of EN 589 the standard for commercial LPGs.
The unburnt gas has only carbon and Hydrogen atoms so it has no water content. However when the fuel is burnt properly with air (Nitrogen and Oxygen) it basically releases the Nitrogen and recombines the H,C, & O to produce Heat, Carbon Dioxide, (CO2) and water (H2O). If the combustion is not of a good quality you can also get in addition to the items above, Carbon as soot, Carbon Monoxide, and some Nitrous Oxides.
Statement "We had two gas bottles that used to stand in the African sunlight and heat with temperatures in excess of 40 degrees C and had no issues and also did not hear of any one else having issues. They were calor gas cylinders."
This relates back to your question about bottles exploding. Calor UK state that LPG should not be stored at temperatures over 50C. As you are well aware the temperature of something standing in direct sunlight can become much hotter than the ambient air temperature, so my guess is that the bottles were easily at or above 50C. When you say you had no issues, if you had any wiff of gas near the bottles, then you have an issue!
It may be that Calor use a different specification of bottle in Africa because of the higher temperatures, they may be tougher (thicker walls and heavier) to withstand the increased pressures, but I am only guessing here.
Gas bottles should be shaded from direct sunlight
Question "I don't understand your reasoning regarding water getting into a regulator. Surely if water can get in, the regulator is not fit for purpose as then gas could also escape the same way water is getting in."
A regulator has a chamber that is divided by a flexible diagram. On one side is the gas, and on the other is the atmosphere. When we say a regulator has an output pressure of 30mBar, we actually mean +30mBarrealtive to the atmospheric pressure. For the regulator to maintain that pressure differential, the air side of the chamber has to ventilate with the external atmosphere. It does that through a small hole. If you check the installation instructions for regulators you will see they call for the regulator to be protected from rain or other sources of water.
There are two dangers of water getting in to the air side of the chamber, one is the spring that biases the diagram, may start to corrode and eventually fail, and secondly as the regulator is effectively the expansion chamber for the high pressure gas from the bottle, as it expands it cools. It may cool the air side sufficiently for any water to turn to ice, which will obviously compromise the action of the spring and diaphragm.
I encountered a problem on a customer's caravan once where the gas pressure was widely out and variable. I found that a price sticker had be stuck over the breather hole. Removing the sticker corrected the problem.
Question "Water could not get in until all the gas had expired"
For the reasons stated above, there is no communication between the gas side and the air side in the regulator so admittance of water to the air side is not dependant on the gas having run out.
Question "The chances of a gas bottle exploding due to sunlight heat are probably impossible"
To a large extent that may be true. Calor and some other suppliers actually incorporate a pressure relief valve in the brass valve assembly. Under direct sunlight, the pressure in the bottle can rise substantially, and the excess pressure may be vented. That obviously has safety implications as the vent gas may be ignited. It is unlikely that any these bottles would explode, because for the gas to ignite it has to have enough oxidant (Oxygen) available, and there is none inside the an LPG bottle. But the venting will feed an external flame. If the make of bottle does not have a PRV, then the internal pressure may continue to build. In theory there is a possibility that the bottle may rupture due to internal pressures, and that would be catastrophic. Propane has more potential for that as its temperature related vapour pressure is much higher than Butane's.
Question "Doesn't gas have a water content anyway"?
LPG (liquefied Petroleum gas) is a hydrocarbon fuel. It is part of a series of chemical compounds that are created by combinations of Hydrogen and Carbon atoms. The range includes Petrol, diesel along with Propane, Butane and many other less well known CH combinations.
Pure Propane is C3H8 and Pure Butane is C4H10 Most commercial grades of Propane and Butane contain other Hydro Carbons but will meet the requirements of EN 589 the standard for commercial LPGs.
The unburnt gas has only carbon and Hydrogen atoms so it has no water content. However when the fuel is burnt properly with air (Nitrogen and Oxygen) it basically releases the Nitrogen and recombines the H,C, & O to produce Heat, Carbon Dioxide, (CO2) and water (H2O). If the combustion is not of a good quality you can also get in addition to the items above, Carbon as soot, Carbon Monoxide, and some Nitrous Oxides.
Statement "We had two gas bottles that used to stand in the African sunlight and heat with temperatures in excess of 40 degrees C and had no issues and also did not hear of any one else having issues. They were calor gas cylinders."
This relates back to your question about bottles exploding. Calor UK state that LPG should not be stored at temperatures over 50C. As you are well aware the temperature of something standing in direct sunlight can become much hotter than the ambient air temperature, so my guess is that the bottles were easily at or above 50C. When you say you had no issues, if you had any wiff of gas near the bottles, then you have an issue!
It may be that Calor use a different specification of bottle in Africa because of the higher temperatures, they may be tougher (thicker walls and heavier) to withstand the increased pressures, but I am only guessing here.
Gas bottles should be shaded from direct sunlight
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