good service !!!!

[GrahamDerby]

Whilst away recently the electric water heater in the van packed up. When i got home i called Don Amotts service department to find out what could be done. Oh we have an element in stock so bring the van in tomorrow and we will do it while you wait !!!.Well when i picked myself up and got over the shock i went and emptied the locker and seating to make it easier. Took the van in and as promised it was fitted there and then.

Isnt it nice to find real service in the caravan industry.Thanks Don Amott leisure Kingdom for great service.

Graham

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hi Graham,

Its good to hear of good service and a highly satisfied customer well done for telling us about it.

 

[GrahamDerby]

Hi Prof

You only seem to hear complaints now days, so credit where credits due.

G

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Graham,

Yes you are right, but that's one of the Achilles heels of trying to use a public forums to measure the success or otherwise of a product. It is in our nature to kick up a fuss when something goes wrong, - and rightly so, as I know of no one who deliberately orders a faulty product.

But the balancing argument is that when a product works well, that is what we expect, and thus there is nothing to get exited about.

A marketing director I knew pointed out that do something wrong and the customer is likely to tell ten people about it, do everything right and only one in a hundred gets to know about it, but do something extra well or exceed the customer expectations and about one in ten will get to hear about it.

So good publicity is brilliant, but you still have to work extra hard to balance the poor issues.

Strangely good service, can turn a negative experience into a positive one. your own heater fault is an example, The actual fault with the element whilst mentioned falls into the background because of the good service you revived.

So it can be possible to mask poor product performance by excelling at putting it right, that is why I am always a little suspicious of manufactures that have large and active service departments are they big because they need to be to handle the numbers of faults that arise?

call me cynical, but a company that has next to no service department may not need one, does that indicate a reliable product?

Answers via crystal ball please.

 

[Surfer]

How old was the caravan? I am surprised to hear that the water heater had packed up as usually they last many years. If the caravan was udn er 6 years old it should have been replaced either free of charge or on pro rata basis.

Signed

Prof Surfer BA(Hons), BSc, MBA, LLA, LLB

 

[Damian]

Quote "If the caravan was udn er 6 years old it should have been replaced either free of charge or on pro rata basis"

Here we go again, the SOGA being misrepresented.

The "Heater" as a whole did not fail, the electric element failed, which is initially covered by a two year manufacturers guarantee, and will be replaced free of charge as long as the failure is not due to user error, in a new van, and is a wear and tear item which is not in the same realms as the main part of the heater.

 

[Philspadders]

Unless of course there is a known fault with the element ,in which case a the element or complete heater could be replaced up to 6 years after purchase.

The items must also be of merchantable quality and fit for purpose and must not fail within a "reasonable" time, reasonable being a weasel word for parties.

 

[Philspadders]

Also ,to give a fair and balanced forum surely name of the dealers should be removed from the post.

After all,when things go wrong we are unable to name names.

Debate that one.

 

[Damian]

There is nothing to debate.

The owners of the site, Haymarket, have made it quite clear in the Forum Etiquette that complaints should be directed to the dealer or company with which the complainant has an issue.

Praise of any business is good for the caravanner as it gives more options as to where to place their business.

Complaints are, by their nature, subjective by the complainant, and not everyone who has dealings with whichever business is the subject of one persons complaint has the same relationship with that business.

 

[Philspadders]

i disagree. Knowing a little about the media ,very few publishers will permit any form of complaint regarding potential customers or even advertisers..... advertising brings in revenue while actual sales does not.

For many years i had bough r.c mags and frequent the mags forums and there is never any negative comment or complaint with name permitted.

One editor did drop a clanger , and admitted over a pint that when a bad review or complaint was made or received it contacted the company concerned and asked if they were happy with the review... the answer usually came back as no.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Philspadders,

There is a fundamental difference between an edited magazine and unedited forum available to the public.

There are plenty of specialist magazines that take up complaints and receive income form advertising. The main difference being, that when they receive a complaint they have staff who will investigate and the editor will decide if a complaint should be taken up. They will usually also contact the company involved, and either broker some kind of resolution, or at least be able to publish both sides of the dispute in a relatively fair and honourable manner.

By comparison, this forum is not edited, and there are no permanent staff employed to review or take up complaints and seek the balancing arguments. The danger is that a person may begin to post matters that are defamatory and untrue whether they have a genuine complaint or not.

A second and very important difference is that contributors to this forum are basically anonymous. Thus complaints cannot be easily corroborated. With a magazine, The editorial staff will not act on anonymous complaints, they will always ascertain the identity of a complainant, even if they do not publish the name in final article.

Perhaps if full names and addresses were used on this forum rather than nicknames the situation may be different, but with anonymity some people feel less constrained in what they post, and some may deliberately produce pure malicious fiction.

Sadly there have been instances on this forum where a people have indulged in a campaign against other contributors or indeed a supplier where it later transpires it was a personal grudge, rather than a genuine complaint.

 

[Parksy]

Well put John

Any user generated content submitted to internet forums is deemed in law to have been published by the owner of that internet forum.

A forum which utilises moderators such as this one is deemed to have editorial control of the material which appears on the forum in the sense that moderators can remove or edit this material if it breaches guidelines issued by the owner of the forum.

This material is therefore subject to laws governing defamation and libel.

The 'advertising revenue' argument is naive and a complete red herring. Caravan manufacturers spend large amounts on magazine advertising and there are comments which criticise their products

by name throughout this forum.

Where genuine complaints about caravans in which manufacturers are named are posted the manufacturers accept that there will sometimes be faults with their products and are often happy to receive feedback.

This is because a contract of sale exists between the buyer of the caravan and the dealer rather than the manufacturer under the s.o.g.a.

 

[Philspadders]

I dont dispute any of that. I agree that the owner of the forum has a duty in law to ensure that the information given is correct and not misleading.

Even good service posts.....

 

[Parksy]

Not exactly Phil.

The forum owners, in this case Haymarket take reasonable steps to ensure that the forum operates within the law but accepts no responsibility for the accuracy of information which appears on the forum whether this information praises dealers or condemns them.

This information can be found in forum etiquette which states:

Practicalcaravan.com takes no responsibility for the accuracy of information transmitted in this forum. The opinions expressed in the forum are not those of Practicalcaravan.com or Haymarket Publishing Limited.

The main thing is that a dealer, caravan park owner etc could instruct lawyers to pursue legal action if the material appeared to be libellous or defamatory toward them, accurate or not.

Even if this action was successfully defended because the information was proven in court to be accurate this defence would still involve Haymarket in legal expenses, staffing costs etc.

 

[Surfer]

After indepth research into the workings of Fleet street and their minions who hang about in dark seedy looking cafes, fundamentally I would state that there appears to be few objects of literary importance that indulge in slandering by investiagtion the very people that feed them and their familes.

An investigation comprises of a visit to the local to get an update on the local gossip over a pint of recycled dishwater. The story is then based on trivialaties within the gossip gained from some drunkard's mouth and then written as if it is gospel.

This is as true as bob that died last week. Bless his soul.

Yours

Prof Surfer BA(Hons), Bsc(Hons), MBA LLb, etc etc.

 

[Parksy]

That may or may not be true of so called investigative journalists Surfer.

What we are talking about here is a caravan forum.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Philspadders

In your last post of 5 Jul 2010 12:25 PM you imply that the good service posting is either incorrect or misleading.

In what way's does it fall foul of your interpretation of the forum etiquette?

Are you claiming that Graham is lying about the service or his feeling towards the dealer?

Do not forget it is a personal report of Graham's experience of this dealer, he is not claiming it is a universal truth, (though of course it may be), and he is urging everyone to go or shop at the dealers, he is saying thank you.

Whilst Grahams experience was positive, there may well be some people who have had the opposite experience. Most good companies will look at bad experiences and try to learn from them on how to avoid them in the future.

Whilst there is no doubt Graham names a particular dealer, It is publicising, not overt advertising - a subtle but important difference.

In my book, publicising is the reporting of an event where something of note occurs, where as advertising is the deliberate act of trying to attract the publics attention and to entice them into engaging with a product or organisation.

If simply naming a product or company was deemed to be advertising, then forums like this cold not exists.

Consider

"Please help! I have a XXXXX with a XXXX and its stopped working, what should I do????

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Philspadders

In your last post of 5 Jul 2010 12:25 PM you imply that the good service posting is either incorrect or misleading.

In what way's does it fall foul of your interpretation of the forum etiquette?

Are you claiming that Graham is lying about the service or his feeling towards the dealer?

Do not forget it is a personal report of Graham's experience of this dealer, he is not claiming it is a universal truth, (though of course it may be), and he is urging everyone to go or shop at the dealers, he is saying thank you.

Whilst Grahams experience was positive, there may well be some people who have had the opposite experience. Most good companies will look at bad experiences and try to learn from them on how to avoid them in the future.

Whilst there is no doubt Graham names a particular dealer, It is publicising, not overt advertising - a subtle but important difference.

In my book, publicising is the reporting of an event where something of note occurs, where as advertising is the deliberate act of trying to attract the publics attention and to entice them into engaging with a product or organisation.

If simply naming a product or company was deemed to be advertising, then forums like this cold not exists.

Consider

"Please help! I have a XXXXX with a XXXX and its stopped working, what should I do????

Opps 4th paragraph should be he is NOT urging"

 

[Philspadders]

John

I am not implying that anyone is lying, and take offence at the inference that i am.

No matter what the forum owners stance is there has been one occasion on one other forum i frequent where a member postive postive comments about a company.

It then transpired that the postive comments were made an employee of that organisation, but too late for a number of memebers who went on to purchase goods from the company.

The goods failed to arrive or when they did were of poor quality and refunds simply did not occur.

The Forum in question was , i understand taken to be partly implicit in this as it had not verified the original claims.

So if negative claims are not permitted should positive claims be permitted if they are unsubstantiated an uncorroborated.?

 

[GrahamDerby]

Hello Philspadders

In your last post of 5 Jul 2010 12:25 PM you imply that the good service posting is either incorrect or misleading.

In what way's does it fall foul of your interpretation of the forum etiquette?

Are you claiming that Graham is lying about the service or his feeling towards the dealer?

Do not forget it is a personal report of Graham's experience of this dealer, he is not claiming it is a universal truth, (though of course it may be), and he is urging everyone to go or shop at the dealers, he is saying thank you.

Whilst Grahams experience was positive, there may well be some people who have had the opposite experience. Most good companies will look at bad experiences and try to learn from them on how to avoid them in the future.

Whilst there is no doubt Graham names a particular dealer, It is publicising, not overt advertising - a subtle but important difference.

In my book, publicising is the reporting of an event where something of note occurs, where as advertising is the deliberate act of trying to attract the publics attention and to entice them into engaging with a product or organisation.

If simply naming a product or company was deemed to be advertising, then forums like this cold not exists.

Consider

"Please help! I have a XXXXX with a XXXX and its stopped working, what should I do????

Well what can i say, i seem to have opened a bag of worms without meaning to, Sorry all . What i can say is the van was new in October last year and was on display in the showroom with the mains switched on. The dealer told me that people often switch things on to see what they do and dont turn them off again , this could have weakened the boiler element, an yes it was replaced under warranty. Thanks for a great forum.

 

[Soozeeg]

I believe there have been a few occasions on this forum where it has become apparent that a poster is acting in their own interests, promoting a product or firm that they themselves own/work for/manufacture. In these instances the poster is spoken to by a moderator, and/or the posts are removed, I understand.

The moderators aren't daft, keep an eye out for this sort of thing and act accordingly, so I don't think you've any need to worry, Phil! ;o)

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Phil,

With regard to your first paragraph, I merely used your own argument with a logical extension, and I asked you clarify your position with regard to this forum.

As you don't name the other forum where the problem arose, it is difficult to draw meaningful conclusions. The core subject matter could be very different which means the readership will also be different, and they may be generally more or less vulnerable from being taken in. Also each forum has its own rules and methods of policing.

Currently PC does not pre-filter posts on this forum, so it is of course possible for a company or employee to obtain a nickname and make postings. Some companies do make regular contributions, but they are open about who they are, and in 99.9% of cases they avoid blatant advertising, but they do offer constructive advice, and I believe the forum owners are perfectly happy for this.

I am often surprised at how quickly action has been taken, when happening on a thread that has an ominous moderators comment telling us the thread has been removed, and I haven't seen any of it previously. But that is down to our volunteer moderators, and there will be times when a non conforming post is put up, and moderators either aren't on line or don't spot it, so it may remain live for several hours.

I personally believe it would be wrong to stifle praise from customers. And I don't see any justification for such censorship. It is a legitimate expression of satisfaction and it may help other readers to make a better-informed decisions. Unlike complaints, it has no implication for libel as it has no defamatory content.

As for making purchases, as always the buyer has to be aware, and to make sure in their own minds that the products they are considering do what they want, and are at the right price. There are plenty of protections in place for customers provide they deal with regular businesses. Distance selling regulations for mail order, SOGA and contractual cooling off periods, and buyer protection when using credit cards etc.

People with criminal intent will always try to find ways to circumvent curbs to their activities, and websites are no less vulnerable to their attention. A major part of customer protection is the customer responsibility to be "buyer beware". The PC forum as part of its rules does not allow advertising. So if a post is put up that is advertising then the readers know it should not be there, and to treat it with caution.