GROSS TRAILER (TRAIN) WEIGHTS ON LICENCE HELD PRE 1997

[PAUL_374303706]

CAN SOMEONE HELP, IM TOLD BY DVLA THAT GROSS WEIGHT FOR TOWING IS 8.25TONS WITH VEHICLES OVER 3500KG (3.5TONS) WITH A TRAILER HAVING TWO AXLES (THE RV I HAVE IN MIND HAS 3 AXLES) BUT IM TOLD BY A FRIEND I HAVE A GRANDAD RIGHT PRE 1997 LICENCE THAT GROSS WEIGHT IS 12TONS. I ASK BECAUSE I WANT TO BUY A 5TH WHEEL (AMERICAN RV) ITS WEIGHT IS 6.212TONS AND THE TOWING VEHICLE IS AN INTERNATIONAL HARVESTER TRUCK WEIGHT 3.5 TONS. THIS FRIEND SAYS THAT HE SAW A DOCUMENTORY ON TV THAT THIS GRANDAD RIGHT EXISTS AND THAT IF THE DVLA REFUSE YOU THE CATEGORY BACK DUE TO CHANGING YOUR OLD PAPER LICENCE FOR A PHOTO TYPE, YOU SHOULD INSTRUCT A SOLICITOR AND THE BILL WILL GO TO THE DVLA. ARE THE DVLA BEING NAUGHTY BY TAKING THIS RIGHT FROM US WHO HAVE PRE 1997 LICENCES WITHOUT ASKING. I WAS AT A RV SHOW AND THE COMPANY SELLING 5TH WHEELS SAY THE SAME AS MY MATE, I WANT TO MAKE SURE THE RV SELLER IS CORRECT AND NOT JUST BEING A SALESMAN. CAN SOMEONE HELP ME, KIND REGARDS PAUL.

 

[Lol1]

Read all about it here Paul.

http://www.directgov.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/WhatCanYouDriveAndYourObligations/DG_10037875

 

[MikeP]

Pls don't post in capitals - it makes it very difficult to read and can be perceived as on-line shouting.

 

[PAUL_374303715]

Thanks for your speedy reply for some reason I cannot get through to that website, do you personally know about this problem please. paul.

 

[MikeP]

Sorry for this being a huge posting.

Are you thinking of buying or hiring a motorhome (motor caravan) to get to your holiday destination? Or maybe you want to import one from another country. Before you decide you'll need to check the entitlement you hold on your driving licence and the size of motorhome you are going to drive.

THE ENTITLEMENT NEEDED ON YOUR DRIVING LICENCE

You will need to check that your driving licence gives you entitlement to drive a motorhome. The categories shown on your licence allow you to drive vehicles up to certain weights, known as the maximum authorised mass (MAM).

CATEGORY B (CAR) ENTITLEMENT

You can drive vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM, together with a trailer not exceeding 750 kilograms. To tow a heavier trailer you will need category B+E entitlement.

CATEGORY C1 ENTITLEMENT

You can drive vehicles over 3.5 tonnes MAM but less than 7.5 tonnes (with or without a trailer up to 750 kilograms). To tow a heavier trailer you will need category C1+E entitlement.

If you passed the category C1+E test:

BEFORE 1 JANUARY 1997 (shown as C1+E (107) on the licence) you are limited to driving such combinations up to a combined weight of 8.25 tonnes eg motorhome 6 tonnes, trailer 2.25 tonnes

AFTER 1 JANUARY 1997 you are entitled to drive combinations up to 12 tonnes in weight where the MAM of the trailer exceeds 750 kilograms but does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle

CATEGORY C ENTITLEMENT

You can drive vehicles over 7.5 tonnes MAM. To draw a trailer over 750 kilograms you will need category C+E entitlement. Motorhomes of this weight cannot be driven on a standard category B (car) licence, irrespective of when that category B entitlement was obtained.

THE SIZE OF THE MOTORHOME

The maximum size of a motorhome allowed in Great Britain is 12m in length and 2.55m in width. There is no maximum limit on the height, but if the vehicle is more than 3m tall, then the height must be measured and displayed (in imperial units and preferably metric as well) on a notice clearly visible to you as the driver.

WHO SET THE CURRENT LIMITS

The Department for Transport (DfT) imposes the current limits that are contained in the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (as amended). Representatives from European countries, including the UK, agreed to impose these limits throughout Europe.

WHY THESE CURRENT LIMITS WERE SET

A number of factors were taken into consideration, such as existing restrictions in different countries, vehicle manoeuvrability and typical road specifications. Also, the overall size of large vehicles that can create an unacceptable safety hazard for adjacent property, vehicles and pedestrians, but especially for oncoming traffic.

NO PLANS TO CHANGE THE LAW

DfT has no plans to change the law on the maximum dimensions of a motorhome, or indeed of any other vehicle.

WHOSE RESPONSIBILITY IS IT FOR THE MOTORHOME TO MEET THE LAW?

Anyone selling, or offering to supply, a motorhome is responsible for ensuring that the size of the vehicle is within the law. It is an offence under the Road Traffic Act 1988 if a motorhome that is too long or too wide is offered for sale.

As a customer, it is a good idea for you to be aware of the law, as ignorance of the law is not a defence in court. Your insurance cover may also be invalid if your vehicle does not meet the requirements of the law.

WHY ARE LARGER VEHICLES ALLOWED IN NORTH AMERICA BUT NOT IN EUROPE?

The road traffic laws in Europe have many differences to those in North America, on a variety of subjects not only maximum length and width. Roads in North America are generally wider than in Europe and property is often set back further from the road.

 

[PAUL_374303715]

Thanks for that Mike P, but I am not driving a motorhome, the towing vehicle is a truck 3.5tons and the trailer is an American caravan (large)6.212 tons called a 5th wheel. I know theres no category for motorhomes but what about my grandad rights that the tv show talked about regarding gross weight of 12tons. Do you think they dont exist and the seller of these 5th wheels are wrong (in your oppinion).

 

[PAUL_374303715]

Mke P, sorry to be a pain but could you clarify pragraph 6 and 7 are the correct way round I dont know but think the 12tons is pre 1st Jan 1997. (not being awkward).

 

[Lutz]

For the purposes of the driving licence, a fifth wheel unit is treated as a medium sized vehicle with trailer. As such you need a C1+E licence which limits you to a gross train weight of 8.25 tonnes if you have a car licence that was issued before 1st January 1997 or 12 tonnes if you passed a proper C1+E test thereafter.

 

[MikeP]

Sorry Paul, I don't really know about this - I just copied and pasted from the site.

 

[PAUL_374303715]

This is my first time on a forum and I would like to Thank all of you that have helped me today, if I have anymore to say on this subject I will let you know. Many Thanks Paul.

 

[Stephen_5122599]

Hi Paul.

I know there has beeh a few replies to your posting but an important point has been left out.

If you passed your car test before 1/1/97 then you have a category C1+E entitlement with a code 107 restriction.

This means that until your licence expires at your 70th birthday or is revoked, you can drive a C1 motor vehicle (3501kg up to 7500kg Maximum Authorised Mass) and tow a trailer with a combined MAM of up to 8250kg.

The other factor which must be taken into account and is an important one for the vehicle combination you propose to drive is that the gross weight of the trailer must not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle.

However I notice from your posting that you say the towing vehicle has a gross weight of 3.5 tons, I assume this is metric tonnes and if so then the towing vehicle would be in category 'B'and not C1.

Holders of licences issued before 1/1/97 will have a category B+E entitlement on the licence which has no upper combination limit and the trailer to vehicle weight ratio does not apply.

However you will need to check that the weights shown on the vehicles plate are not exceeded to avoid any overloading problems.

Regards

Steve

 

[Lutz]

Stephen, you say that if you have a pre-1997 C1+E entitlement you are limited to a gross train weight of 8250kg but if you have a B+E licence also issued before 1997 there is no upper limit for the combination. Sounds a bit absurd. That means so long as the gross vehicle weight of the towcar is under 3500kg, the gross train weight is limited only by the manufacturer's technical specification. Note, however, that if the trailer weighs over 3500kg, then it must have a service brake (which would normally be the case with a large fifth wheel).

 

[Stephen_5122599]

Stephen, you say that if you have a pre-1997 C1+E entitlement you are limited to a gross train weight of 8250kg but if you have a B+E licence also issued before 1997 there is no upper limit for the combination. Sounds a bit absurd. That means so long as the gross vehicle weight of the towcar is under 3500kg, the gross train weight is limited only by the manufacturer's technical specification. Note, however, that if the trailer weighs over 3500kg, then it must have a service brake (which would normally be the case with a large fifth wheel).

Hi Lutz,

Yes it is absurd, however the any trailer towed by a category B vehicle is restricted in dimensions by the Construction and U se Regulations to 2.3m width and 7m length. This regulation plays a part in physically restricting the trailer's weight capabilities. You are also basically correct as far as the braking system goes. However trailer brake requiremnts are also governed by year of manufacture, the unladen weight and the gross weight.It can therefore get rather complicated and is another subject altogether.

Regards

Steve

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi guys

just read this thread about weights and it set me thinking I have the old type licence (green one) it has only 3 groups on it A; any motor vehicle (no weight or size restrictions) D; any motor cycle E; any electrically propelled vehicle. as the licence is still valid I have never changed it and drive any thing on it and have done for years.

I enquired about my licence groups when the new type licence came out and was told by the DVLA that as long as I kept this licence none of the weight restrictions or passenger numbers applied but would if I renewed it and as long as the said vehicle I wished to drive was not a psv in service or hgv class 1.2.or 3 I could drive them at any time

so in theory I could drive a privatly owned bus with 20 passengers (not fare paying) towing a 4 ton trailer? is this what they call grandads rights

 

[Steve L]

Stephen is quite right as far as I'm aware.

However, you would be hard pressed to find a vehicle with under 3500Kgs gross weight plus a towing allowance to cope with 6.21 tons.

I think a 109 inch Landrover was able to tow 4 tons but that was about the max.

This one is realy a question for a legal advisor.

But even if it is legal I'd be cautious as PC plod aften does not know the finer points of law either and this could lead to frequent vehicle checks.

I found this out when using a trailer behind my 3500Kg truck. You see I did not require an operators license as the trailer weighed less than 1000Kgs unladen, but nearly every traffic cop in the midlands didn't know that.

I had to get a clarification letter from the regional traffic authority and carry a copy in the cab at all times.

Steve L.

 

[Stephen_5122599]

hi guys

just read this thread about weights and it set me thinking I have the old type licence (green one) it has only 3 groups on it A; any motor vehicle (no weight or size restrictions) D; any motor cycle E; any electrically propelled vehicle. as the licence is still valid I have never changed it and drive any thing on it and have done for years.

I enquired about my licence groups when the new type licence came out and was told by the DVLA that as long as I kept this licence none of the weight restrictions or passenger numbers applied but would if I renewed it and as long as the said vehicle I wished to drive was not a psv in service or hgv class 1.2.or 3 I could drive them at any time

so in theory I could drive a privatly owned bus with 20 passengers (not fare paying) towing a 4 ton trailer? is this what they call grandads rights

Hi Colin.

I think whoever gave you that information is incorrect.Even though you are in possesion of an old style licence the vehicle categories have changed and consequently your right to drive certain vehicles. This has happened several times over the years, a prime example was when the maximum size limit for motorcycle learners changed from 250cc to 125cc, most driving licences showed 250cc for years, but it was an offence for them to ride a 250cc unless they had passed a motorcycle test.

Similarly today the vehicle classifications have changed and you are only allowed to drive vehicles within the new classifications.For example Cat D1 restricted not for hire or reward which limits the vehicle to 16 passenger seats. Anything over 16 passenger seats is category D and needs a psv driving licence regardless of the vehicles use.

If you obtained your advice from the DVLA ask them to put it into writing.

regards

Steve

 

[Stephen_5122599]

Stephen is quite right as far as I'm aware.

However, you would be hard pressed to find a vehicle with under 3500Kgs gross weight plus a towing allowance to cope with 6.21 tons.

I think a 109 inch Landrover was able to tow 4 tons but that was about the max.

This one is realy a question for a legal advisor.

But even if it is legal I'd be cautious as PC plod aften does not know the finer points of law either and this could lead to frequent vehicle checks.

I found this out when using a trailer behind my 3500Kg truck. You see I did not require an operators license as the trailer weighed less than 1000Kgs unladen, but nearly every traffic cop in the midlands didn't know that.

I had to get a clarification letter from the regional traffic authority and carry a copy in the cab at all times.

Steve L.

Hi Steve.

Your'e quite right, one would be hard pressed to find a tow vehicle under 3500kg gross weight suitable to tow a trailer of 6.21 tonnes. However as I have mentioned in a previous thread the weights shown on a vehicle's VIN plate are very difficult to enforce in law. A pick up type vehicle is fitted with a manufacturers plate which shows weight limits which can be legally enforced.

Regards

Steve