Is there more info regarding Max Gross Train Weight that i need to know regarding adding on the weight of a towbar and the noseweight of the van, and the weight of the front and rear axles of the towing car, I read on a post that these are also considered when matching towcar and caravan? that you can deduct the weight of the noseweight as it is part of the car and not part of the MTPLM of the caravan. But gets added in when calculating the GTW?
gross train weight
- Thread starter Lonesome-Whizkid
- Start date
Lonesome-Whizkid said:
You are asking some very intelligent questions, and I think you are begging to realise that subject is actually quite involved, but by tackling things a bit at a time you can work through it. Surprisingly the whole process is quite logical, but it does take some effort to understand it.
The maximum Gross train weight is an absolute limit, and your outfit must not weigh more that this figure with car and trailer fully loaded with people and luggage. It can be subdivided into two basic areas i.e Car and Trailer,
The car has a absolute weight limit also (Gross Vehicle Weight) and this has to include the weight of the towbar fitted to the car, And the static vertical load the trailer applies to it (Nose Weight). Obviously the weight of the car is carried by its axles, and they also have maximum loads which must not be exceeded.
The caravan also has a Gross Vehicle Weight or its MTPLM which is made up of the load carried by the axle and the load produced on its coupling.(Nose weight) As you are probably aware the actual nose load produced depends on how you load the caravan. You should aim to have a minimum nose weight of 5% The Industry suggests 7% and in reality you would not exceed 10% of MTPLM
Technically the load you tow is only the load on the trailer axles so in theory if you car has a maximum towed braked load of 1000kg, but has a vertical nose load capability of 75kg you could actually tow a trailer with a gross weight of of 1075kg, BUT you would have to ensure a nose load of 75kg was actually applied to the tow hitch, otherwise the trailer axle load would have any difference and that would exceed the cars stated capability.
I hope this has helped.
I should have added:-
You can often find that one or more of the larger weight limits is less than the sum of the components limits that apparently make it up, so for example in a car with a GVW of 2100Kg you might find the front axle has a limit of 1100Kg and the rear has a limit of 1200kg. These added together seem to give a maximum load of 2300Kg, which is 200Kg more than the stated max. You have to follow the GVW and if you did have 1200kg on the rear axle you would have to reduce the load inside the car to bring the front axle down to 900Kg or pro-rata changes.
The same can apply to the Gross Train Weight. Some car manufacturers give a maximum Braked Trailer weight that can only pulled by the car when the car is not fully loaded, So you have to be aware of these tricks and choose your car carefully to ensure it is capable of towing the caravan of your choice.
As a guide if you subtract the GVW from the GTW that will give you the max. weight of caravan you can tow when the car is fully loaded, subject to the cars stated towing limits set by the manufacture. Its also worth noting that some cars (usually exotics and some sports varients) do not have a GTW figure and thus cannot tow anything.
You can often find that one or more of the larger weight limits is less than the sum of the components limits that apparently make it up, so for example in a car with a GVW of 2100Kg you might find the front axle has a limit of 1100Kg and the rear has a limit of 1200kg. These added together seem to give a maximum load of 2300Kg, which is 200Kg more than the stated max. You have to follow the GVW and if you did have 1200kg on the rear axle you would have to reduce the load inside the car to bring the front axle down to 900Kg or pro-rata changes.
The same can apply to the Gross Train Weight. Some car manufacturers give a maximum Braked Trailer weight that can only pulled by the car when the car is not fully loaded, So you have to be aware of these tricks and choose your car carefully to ensure it is capable of towing the caravan of your choice.
As a guide if you subtract the GVW from the GTW that will give you the max. weight of caravan you can tow when the car is fully loaded, subject to the cars stated towing limits set by the manufacture. Its also worth noting that some cars (usually exotics and some sports varients) do not have a GTW figure and thus cannot tow anything.
A note to add. Look on your towbar label, especially if it has a removable ball, and check the maximum load it can take. We have a Passat B6 estate which is rated for a maximum noseweight of 90Kg but the towbar is only rated 85Kg so 85 wins.
There is wide variation on noseweights (which are often not quoted in manufacturer literature) which can mislead. For example a Mondeo can take 75Kg, but an Octavia which is not far off the same size is usually limited to 60Kg. If you have a tug that can handle much more also remember that the maximum noseweight that an Al-Ko chassis can handle in most cases is 100Kg which should never be exceeded.
Confused? You will be.....
There is wide variation on noseweights (which are often not quoted in manufacturer literature) which can mislead. For example a Mondeo can take 75Kg, but an Octavia which is not far off the same size is usually limited to 60Kg. If you have a tug that can handle much more also remember that the maximum noseweight that an Al-Ko chassis can handle in most cases is 100Kg which should never be exceeded.
Confused? You will be.....
Hi Andrew,
When you mention, Al-Ko chassis are you refering to the towbar chassis or the caravan chassis? or is that a daft Question to ask? One thing I do want to know is how do you know whether your caravan hitch is a standard flange fitting or a Al-Ko? I've decided to chose the caravan first and the tow car second for if i were to pick the tow car first and get a towbar fitted to it if it doesnt already have one { get one fitted thats new even if it does just in case theres rott or rust that's underlying } and finding out the hard way that ive got the wrong towball fitted, I wouldn't have done my homework correctly.
One way i see round this problem is to get a towbar/ball fitted that has a removable ball and to have a spare or two of different kinds and a few spare nuts n bolts and torque trench handy i could change inside 15 minutes, then it wouldnt matter what caravan i got as id be prepered, but being green to the sport and just a beginner i dont even know if these things are possible.
Just had a look on ebay there at the different types of towball and they all look the same to me? Its the Black Plastic Covers for them that might have been confussing me with the shape making it look a little like a mountain bike helmet.
When you mention, Al-Ko chassis are you refering to the towbar chassis or the caravan chassis? or is that a daft Question to ask? One thing I do want to know is how do you know whether your caravan hitch is a standard flange fitting or a Al-Ko? I've decided to chose the caravan first and the tow car second for if i were to pick the tow car first and get a towbar fitted to it if it doesnt already have one { get one fitted thats new even if it does just in case theres rott or rust that's underlying } and finding out the hard way that ive got the wrong towball fitted, I wouldn't have done my homework correctly.
One way i see round this problem is to get a towbar/ball fitted that has a removable ball and to have a spare or two of different kinds and a few spare nuts n bolts and torque trench handy i could change inside 15 minutes, then it wouldnt matter what caravan i got as id be prepered, but being green to the sport and just a beginner i dont even know if these things are possible.
Just had a look on ebay there at the different types of towball and they all look the same to me? Its the Black Plastic Covers for them that might have been confussing me with the shape making it look a little like a mountain bike helmet.
Damian
Moderator
The Al-Ko chassis refers to the caravan, not the towbar.
If the van you choose has a red or black and red hitch coupling with friction pads (it will have two levers) then it is an Al-KO hitch.
If it has a Blue hitch with friction pads it will be Winterhoff and only have one handle.
As far as towballs go, the easiest is to specify an Al-Ko towball as that will accommodate all kinds of hitch couplings.
If the van you choose has a red or black and red hitch coupling with friction pads (it will have two levers) then it is an Al-KO hitch.
If it has a Blue hitch with friction pads it will be Winterhoff and only have one handle.
As far as towballs go, the easiest is to specify an Al-Ko towball as that will accommodate all kinds of hitch couplings.
hi Lonesome-Whizkid,
we seem a little confusedhmy: that is not suprising with the amount of kit available,
Andrew was refering to the caravan chassis in most cases the max hitch limit is 100kg of noseweight this simply means that say you attach the caravan to a lorry that has a max noseweight of 500kg the actual maximum noseweight you could use would be 100kg as this is the limit set by Alko. if however you attached the van to say a Meriva the max noseweight you could use would be 50kg because this is the maximum for the cars tow bar, you always use the lowest figure what ever that is.
next there is no difference in the flange fixings or size, on any tow bar ONLY the ball is different with a standard flanged ball the diameter is 50mm however it has a short length neck, this will foul on the alko hitch of the van if one is fitted,
the Alko ball is also 50mm and has the same bolt holes BUT the neck is longer so it does not foul the hitch.
if you decide to fit a detachable tow ball (swan neck) these are fine with the Alko hitch because as the name implies it has a swan neck and will not foul the hitch either.
next if you buy a car that has a bar already fitted you could garuntee it would not be rotten they are just too strong the only rust problems could be in the tow bar mounts on the body of the car seeing has you would probably want to tow with a car under 10years old I doubt there would be a problem there either but you could have it checked on purchase on the previso that you are going to tow a caravan with it!!.
next all towballs are removable however if you have the alko flange type fitted there is no need to ever remove it as these are also suitable for a van that does not have a alko hitch but the old greased type, this is what I do as I have two trailers one has the alko (van) the other a box trailer with greased ball both work just the same on the alko ball BUT after using the box trailer the ball has to be completely cleaned to remove any grease as this would ruin the friction pads. if you get a detachable tow ball (swan neck) these need no spanners or nuts as they are quick release and just click into place, this type is also suitable for either alko or greased hitches.
next I am not supprised they look the same to you as they ARE the same only the length of the neck on the alko ball is longer. (as an aside) the ball covers are unique to the different type of ball a Alko cover only fits a alko ball and visa versa, (because of the length of the neck) SEE
hope this helps and answers some of your questions keep them coming as this is the best way to learn
we seem a little confused
hmy: that is not suprising with the amount of kit available,Andrew was refering to the caravan chassis in most cases the max hitch limit is 100kg of noseweight this simply means that say you attach the caravan to a lorry that has a max noseweight of 500kg the actual maximum noseweight you could use would be 100kg as this is the limit set by Alko. if however you attached the van to say a Meriva the max noseweight you could use would be 50kg because this is the maximum for the cars tow bar, you always use the lowest figure what ever that is.
next there is no difference in the flange fixings or size, on any tow bar ONLY the ball is different with a standard flanged ball the diameter is 50mm however it has a short length neck, this will foul on the alko hitch of the van if one is fitted,
the Alko ball is also 50mm and has the same bolt holes BUT the neck is longer so it does not foul the hitch.
if you decide to fit a detachable tow ball (swan neck) these are fine with the Alko hitch because as the name implies it has a swan neck and will not foul the hitch either.
next if you buy a car that has a bar already fitted you could garuntee it would not be rotten they are just too strong the only rust problems could be in the tow bar mounts on the body of the car seeing has you would probably want to tow with a car under 10years old I doubt there would be a problem there either but you could have it checked on purchase on the previso that you are going to tow a caravan with it!!.
next all towballs are removable however if you have the alko flange type fitted there is no need to ever remove it as these are also suitable for a van that does not have a alko hitch but the old greased type, this is what I do as I have two trailers one has the alko (van) the other a box trailer with greased ball both work just the same on the alko ball BUT after using the box trailer the ball has to be completely cleaned to remove any grease as this would ruin the friction pads. if you get a detachable tow ball (swan neck) these need no spanners or nuts as they are quick release and just click into place, this type is also suitable for either alko or greased hitches.
next I am not supprised they look the same to you as they ARE the same only the length of the neck on the alko ball is longer. (as an aside) the ball covers are unique to the different type of ball a Alko cover only fits a alko ball and visa versa, (because of the length of the neck) SEE
hope this helps and answers some of your questions keep them coming as this is the best way to learn
I bet you didn't think such an innocuous question could generate so much information? It just shows how complex it becomes, and it is important because generally speaking most caravans are loaded close to their maximum limits so any margins for errors are very small.
It makes me wonder how many caravans or cars are actually overloaded when you see an outfit turn up on site, and half the house seems to be unloaded.
It makes me wonder how many caravans or cars are actually overloaded when you see an outfit turn up on site, and half the house seems to be unloaded.
Thanks, yes thats good info, just what i needed to know, As i thought that one towball was round and another oval, So its just the neck that makes it different and if i get the Al-Ko flange fitted it will do all hitches, Understood.
I've got my heart set on a Kia Sorento 2.2 CRDI KX-2 4x4 Deisel 2010 model and I've Matched It with the Lunar Lexon 640 RS 2008 model and even though ive been told on some threads that using towcar/caravan matching services might not be accurate and to always check the VIN plates to make sure and the owners manuals, the towcar.info page match this outfit at 83% and in the event of it being wrong ive got a back-up plan for another match with the kia sportage 2.0 CRDI 4x4 Deisel 2010 with the Bailey pageant S6 champagne which comes back at 77%. But i prefer the first choice. I just hope the GTW for both towcars is within limits of my 2 choice as its the only figure i havent been able to find. All other exterior specifications ive got.
I've got my heart set on a Kia Sorento 2.2 CRDI KX-2 4x4 Deisel 2010 model and I've Matched It with the Lunar Lexon 640 RS 2008 model and even though ive been told on some threads that using towcar/caravan matching services might not be accurate and to always check the VIN plates to make sure and the owners manuals, the towcar.info page match this outfit at 83% and in the event of it being wrong ive got a back-up plan for another match with the kia sportage 2.0 CRDI 4x4 Deisel 2010 with the Bailey pageant S6 champagne which comes back at 77%. But i prefer the first choice. I just hope the GTW for both towcars is within limits of my 2 choice as its the only figure i havent been able to find. All other exterior specifications ive got.
hi again,
just been doing a little google on gross train weight and come across this little gem of complete ignorance :woohoo: unbelievable read on:-
Yes, the artic tractor unit is set up to control all the extra weight it pulls and stops, but the same can be done with a private car.
My young brother pulls a double axle caravan of some description, with an old Skoda Fabia Estate, and has done a lot of mods to the car to ensure safe towing, uprated rear suspension, shocks, and larger brakes, and tyres.
He has used this combination for the past 3 years towing all over Europe without any problems at all.
Please don't get me wrong i'm not saying it correct to drive a car and caravan unit outwith the caravan clubs guideines, what I am saying it that for the correct driver its not impossible task.
OMG what a Dick think I will go and have a lie down now.
just been doing a little google on gross train weight and come across this little gem of complete ignorance :woohoo: unbelievable read on:-
Yes, the artic tractor unit is set up to control all the extra weight it pulls and stops, but the same can be done with a private car.
My young brother pulls a double axle caravan of some description, with an old Skoda Fabia Estate, and has done a lot of mods to the car to ensure safe towing, uprated rear suspension, shocks, and larger brakes, and tyres.
He has used this combination for the past 3 years towing all over Europe without any problems at all.
Please don't get me wrong i'm not saying it correct to drive a car and caravan unit outwith the caravan clubs guideines, what I am saying it that for the correct driver its not impossible task.
OMG what a Dick think I will go and have a lie down now.
Well actually Colin, I does demonstrate a point.
Now I must make it clear I am not advocating what this reports suggests, it does fly in the face of good sense, and in the UK it would probably be illegal anyway.
But the fact that a small car has managed an over size trailer without coming a cropper emphasises that fact the UK caravan recommendations of 85 and 100% are not magical and are not based on any mechanical certainties. However give the combination to another driver and the outcome could be very different. This supports my contention that its the driver that makes the biggest difference with any outfit.
What of course does happen is that any margins of safety are eroded as the weight ratio rises, and that means the drivers skill and experience may be called on more to manage the outfits characteristics this gives some credence to the thought that 85% is right for novices and as experience/skill grows going over 85% may be acceptable.
I also maintain that give some drivers an outfit that is below 85% and they can still get it to behave badly!
Now I must make it clear I am not advocating what this reports suggests, it does fly in the face of good sense, and in the UK it would probably be illegal anyway.
But the fact that a small car has managed an over size trailer without coming a cropper emphasises that fact the UK caravan recommendations of 85 and 100% are not magical and are not based on any mechanical certainties. However give the combination to another driver and the outcome could be very different. This supports my contention that its the driver that makes the biggest difference with any outfit.
What of course does happen is that any margins of safety are eroded as the weight ratio rises, and that means the drivers skill and experience may be called on more to manage the outfits characteristics this gives some credence to the thought that 85% is right for novices and as experience/skill grows going over 85% may be acceptable.
I also maintain that give some drivers an outfit that is below 85% and they can still get it to behave badly!
The limitation of how much a tug can pull is largely down to the strength of its chassis. Both vehicles you mention are Chelsea Tractors and are designed to pull loads - hence why the Sorento is by far the most popular towcar in the UK. Even my Passat estate has a pull capacity of 1800Kg and there are very few caravans that get anywhere near that. The MTPLM of the Champagne is 1326Kg (coincidently the same as my Pegasus 462): the maximum for a braked trailer on the current 2L Sportage is 2 tonnes so I don't think you will have any problem. Just, as I said earlier, make sure the noseweight matches.
You seem to have found out about the 85% figure? Don't be mislead: this figure has no technical or legal basis, it was simply plucked out of the air some years ago as a reasonable target.
One thing that is important is you. If you are new to caravanning and passed your driving test after 1st Jan 1997 you cannot tow a total train weight of over 3.5tonnes without taking the additional B+E driving test: if you passed before that date you can drive a maximum of 8.25tonnes which includes a 750Kg unbraked trailer.
You seem to have found out about the 85% figure? Don't be mislead: this figure has no technical or legal basis, it was simply plucked out of the air some years ago as a reasonable target.
One thing that is important is you. If you are new to caravanning and passed your driving test after 1st Jan 1997 you cannot tow a total train weight of over 3.5tonnes without taking the additional B+E driving test: if you passed before that date you can drive a maximum of 8.25tonnes which includes a 750Kg unbraked trailer.
And am I correct in learning that if you passed your test before 1997 that the legal train length you can tow goes from 7 meters (excluding A frame and hitch) to 12 metres?
This is an area beyond UK touring caravans, so I have little knowledge on trailers over 7M. From a cursory google of the subject, information is scant, so I suggest you might be better approaching the Driving standards agency or VOSA directly.
So, If the UK limit of towing a van is 7 Metres excluding the A Frame and hitch. Is it legal to tow a van total length 7.88 Meters? As this is what the LUNAR LEXON 640 RS 2008 model is? The Caravan of my choice.
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