Help finding a caravan engineer who will complete a Section 75 Report

[ksdodd21]

Just some back ground info please.
Did you have it serviced annually by an appointed dealer or independent engineers?
What were the damp readings like?

So the first three years we had it serviced and repaired by the dealership. The repairs completed in our mind actually caused more problems than they repaired. For example, when it very first leaked it was around the skylight area, so obviously the skylight. The first time they repaired it they took the whole awning rail off (and we believe that this is probably a big part of our problem as we were told that the joins were also fibre glassed to prevent leaks. They obviously didn’t do it as it should have been done because they used screws that are now rusty . Damp reports have all been good but weather has been dry at the time of testing. It does dry out again. We have hardly used this caravan and this March we took it to Scotland. Now the straw that broke the camel’s back was the fact that every wall was sodden - you can see my video https://photos.app.goo.gl/DzVvafkmYmUjtk6S6

 

[ksdodd21]

So the first three years we had it serviced and repaired by the dealership. The repairs completed in our mind actually caused more problems than they repaired. For example, when it very first leaked it was around the skylight area, so obviously the skylight. The first time they repaired it they took the whole awning rail off (and we believe that this is probably a big part of our problem as we were told that the joins were also fibre glassed to prevent leaks. They obviously didn’t do it as it should have been done because they used screws that are now rusty . Damp reports have all been good but weather has been dry at the time of testing. It does dry out again. We have hardly used this caravan and this March we took it to Scotland. Now the straw that broke the camel’s back was the fact that every wall was sodden - you can see my video https://photos.app.goo.gl/DzVvafkmYmUjtk6S6

There were further repairs that still leak but the reality is we didn’t know how bad it was until we camped in bad weather

 

[ksdodd21]

Just some back ground info please.
Did you have it serviced annually by an appointed dealer or independent engineers?
What were the damp readings like?

So the first three years we had it serviced and repaired by the dealership. The repairs completed in our mind actually caused more problems than they repaired. For example, when it very first leaked it was around the skylight area, so obviously the skylight. The first time they repaired it they took the whole awning rail off (and we believe that this is probably a big part of our problem as we were told that the joins were also fibre glassed to prevent leaks. They obviously didn’t do it as it should have been done because they used screws that are now rusty . Damp reports have all been good but weather has been dry at the time of testing. It does dry out again. We have hardly used this caravan and this March we took it to Scotland. Now the straw that broke the camel’s back was the fact that every wall was sodden - you can see my video https://photos.app.goo.gl/DzVvafkmYmUjtk6S6

 

[JTQ]

Is condensation quite a part of the issue, just thinking March in Scotland?

 

[Buckman]

We didn’t leave it for 5 years, we have had ongoing communication since 3 months after we purchased it. The problem is due to covid, moving house and serious health conditions we haven’t had the opportunity to use it that much to test it. Plus you don’t know it’s leaking if it’s dry when you use it.

I was referring to raising a claim.

 

[ksdodd21]

Just some back ground info please.
Did you have it serviced annually by an appointed dealer or independent engineers?
What were the damp readings like?

Hi the first 3 years all the servicing and repairs were done by the dealership‘s service department, but the work was not to the standard we expected. In fact we are highly confident that a lot of the problems now are a direct result of the repair work completed by them. When they took the awning rail off at the very beginning when the leak obviously came from skylight, it was obvious they didn’t know what they were doing. In fact when the ceiling was still wet after they repaired the skylight because they had trapped the water in the membrane. The fixed the toilet pump and thought it was a good idea to create the electrical join under the water rather than in the dry tray (obviously provided for that purpose).

But the caravan itself is substandard. The chassis wasn’t galvanised properly by the factory. When we had the corner repaired of leaking by Caravanalia he surprised us by telling us that there was just open space above the window, no structure at all. When we bought the caravan we were told that the reason they were so waterproof is because in addition to the fibreglass body, the joins were also sealed with fibreglass - this obviously wasn’t the case at the front of ours.

All damp tests during services were fine, but we unfortunately had dry weather on each occasion.

 

[ksdodd21]

I was referring to raising a claim.

We only discovered we could make a claim recently, we found out from the caravan club

 

[ksdodd21]

Is condensation quite a part of the issue, just thinking March in Scotland?

We considered this ourselves, however, we have previously caravanned throughout the year with other caravans we have owned without dealing with anything like we had to cope with in March. It wasn’t just a couple of damp spots,, all the walls were wet to the touch. If condensation is this bad then surely it is not fit for purpose?

Is condensation quite a part of the issue, just thinking March in Scotland?

 

[JTQ]

Most other caravans, will inherently feature a "vapour barrier" so the warm damp air in the van is unable to condense on the inner face of the external wall. Examples will be the inner skinning of a sandwich constructed wall or roof, typically a plywood faced with a vinyl "wall paper", or a thin GRP skin.

The same issue faced with van conversion motorhomes and our cars in general, where either a vapour barrier is employed or the insulation itself is closed cell foam bonded to the external skin.

Is the Freedom marketed for use in all seasons or is it a summer season product, where condensation is nothing like so challenging and arguably could be ignored? Hoping a good drying day follows a chilly high humidity night.

 

[ksdodd21]

Most other caravans, will inherently feature a "vapour barrier" so the warm damp air in the van is unable to condense on the inner face of the external wall. Examples will be the inner skinning of a sandwich constructed wall or roof, typically a plywood faced with a vinyl "wall paper", or a thin GRP skin.

The same issue faced with van conversion motorhomes and our cars in general, where either a vapour barrier is employed or the insulation itself is closed cell foam bonded to the external skin.

Is the Freedom marketed for use in all seasons or is it a summer season product, where condensation is nothing like so challenging and arguably could be ignored? Hoping a good drying day follows a chilly high humidity night.

Surely if a caravan is not all season this should be made clear to the buyer?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Thank you all so much. As we are currently in the process of a section 75, if I can get a report I will follow through. Next step if not will be Which.

thank you so much for your message - would have definitely gone to @caravanalia because he’s fab, but we’re not allowed because he did a repair for us! 😞😞

Just because you are presently involved with section 75, does not preclude you from investigating other avenues, and Which? Legal Services would also be be able to offer advice concerning the Section 75, as its all consumer processes with which they are very knowledgeable.

I would venture to suggest that the cost of joining which legal would almost certainly be small compared to the benefits their advice might recover.

 

[JTQ]

Surely if a caravan is not all season this should be made clear to the buyer?

We might think so, but in the final analysis the judgement is likely to be made on the seller's claims of what it is suitable for, not what buyers might want it to be suitable for.

Not a comment made to be argumentative but a flag that if seeking redress for something not offered, failure is likely to follow.

By comparison, there are brands that make "all season" use a selling point, this rather suggests its not a given for all caravans.

I am a bit concerned that in your case condensation has played a role and will be fronted by the seller's defence, as an aspect not wholly in their control.
As you seek, you do need the services of a competent expert to identify where all the issues causing the mould etc lay. If primarily it is physical leaks, then your chances are way better.

All said, I wish you luck.

 

[ksdodd21]

Just because you are presently involved with section 75, does not preclude you from investigating other avenues, and Which? Legal Services would also be be able to offer advice concerning the Section 75, as its all consumer processes with which they are very knowledgeable.

I would venture to suggest that the cost of joining which legal would almost certainly be small compared to the benefits their advice might recover.

Thank you for that advice - I will definitely look into this immediately. I really appreciate your support

 

[ksdodd21]

We might think so, but in the final analysis the judgement is likely to be made on the seller's claims of what it is suitable for, not what buyers might want it to be suitable for.

Not a comment made to be argumentative but a flag that if seeking redress for something not offered, failure is likely to follow.

By comparison, there are brands that make "all season" use a selling point, this rather suggests its not a given for all caravans.

I am a bit concerned that in your case condensation has played a role and will be fronted by the seller's defence, as an aspect not wholly in their control.
As you seek, you do need the services of a competent expert to identify where all the issues causing the mould etc lay. If primarily it is physical leaks, then your chances are way better.

All said, I wish you luck.

Thank you very much, your advice is much appreciated

 

[Jcloughie]

I wonder what sort of report is being asked for. A detailed report that investigated the build quality and the subsequent remedial action which might end up with the reporter having to defend their words in court is one thing.

But surely a comprehensive damp report should suffice. As that is supportive of the fact that the caravan has not been fixed despite all the attempts.

Cosmetics cold be argued, but facts are facts.

A comprehensive damp report should distinguish between condensation and damp.


John

 

[Dustydog]

I wonder what sort of report is being asked for. A detailed report that investigated the build quality and the subsequent remedial action which might end up with the reporter having to defend their words in court is one thing.

But surely a comprehensive damp report should suffice. As that is supportive of the fact that the caravan has not been fixed despite all the attempts.

Cosmetics cold be argued, but facts are facts.


John

I too don’t know the answer John.
My concern is that the construction of the Freedom is mostly GRP. Does it include timber in the conventional sense?
The OP says they didn’t notice the water ingress because it dried out yet no reported mildew etc?
We know the wrong screws have been used ie non SS.
I wonder if there is any merit talking to one of the CAMC Insurance Cover Approved Engineers. They deal with damaged caravans all day long and may have the knowledge required?
Just a thought?

 

[ksdodd21]

Section 75 claim been closed on ne because I can’t get report! Am so bloomin fed up

 

[ProfJohnL]

We might think so, but in the final analysis the judgement is likely to be made on the seller's claims of what it is suitable for, not what buyers might want it to be suitable for.

Not a comment made to be argumentative but a flag that if seeking redress for something not offered, failure is likely to follow.

By comparison, there are brands that make "all season" use a selling point, this rather suggests its not a given for all caravans.

I am a bit concerned that in your case condensation has played a role and will be fronted by the seller's defence, as an aspect not wholly in their control.
As you seek, you do need the services of a competent expert to identify where all the issues causing the mould etc lay. If primarily it is physical leaks, then your chances are way better.

All said, I wish you luck.

further to this point, In UK law it is the buyer who should verify the product on offer is suitable for the purpose they intend. Consequently as a buyer you need to ask all the questions before you decide to buy a product.

Whilst the law says you should be able to trust the information a dealer supplies about a product, for example the information in an advert or a brochure they use and any verbal information they supply, the law does not require them to provide all the information, but what information is supplied must be accurate. This is frustrating especially for a novices who might not know what questions to ask, but here again the Law takes the view that a dealer who sells a product should use his specialist knowledge and experience to guide customers to make the best choices.

That is why a good dealer will engage with the customer and try to ascertain the customers expectations for the product and their likely usage of the product. The dealer should then use their knowledge to point out any glaring or important mismatches so the customer can make an informed decision.

It is in the best interests of both the customer and the seller that all parties agree the product is well matched to the intended purpose the customer has indicated.

It should also be noted that if a dealer/seller becomes aware that a customers expectations or stated use is incompatible with the product, they can refuse to sell it, thus preventing on going warranty claims or breaches of contract.

 

[Buckman]

I wonder what sort of report is being asked for. A detailed report that investigated the build quality and the subsequent remedial action which might end up with the reporter having to defend their words in court is one thing.

But surely a comprehensive damp report should suffice. As that is supportive of the fact that the caravan has not been fixed despite all the attempts.

Cosmetics cold be argued, but facts are facts.

A comprehensive damp report should distinguish between condensation and damp.


John

I would think that a report would need to demonstrate that the fault was there at time of purchase. After 5 years this would be very difficult, but not impossible if the OP can use a SAR and access all documentation that the dealer has ton the caravan and themselves. That is possibly their only hope. Hopefully Which Legal Services will be able to assist the OP.

 

[Jcloughie]

I would think that a report would need to demonstrate that the fault was there at time of purchase. After 5 years this would be very difficult, but not impossible if the OP can use a SAR and access all documentation that the dealer has ton the caravan and themselves. That is possibly their only hope. Hopefully Which Legal Services will be able to assist the OP.

My point was, that if damp remains despite all the efforts made to rectify. This would indicate that the problem was inherent. Therefore must have existed from manufacture.

My thinking is along these lines.

How do you prove factual causation?​

Factual causation is established by applying the 'but for' test. This asks, 'but for the actions of the defendant, would the result have occurred?' If yes, the result would have occurred in any event, the defendant is not liable.


Full text here.


But as you say, that is an area which WHICH will be of greater help.

Surely any more comprehensive examination would have to involve the internal structure to see how thorougher sealant has been applied and the overlaps of joints. And could even be destructive.

John

 

[Dustydog]

Believe it or not Freedom do not use sealant in the manufacturing. See this

Built To Last​

Freedom Caravans are renowned for being exceptionally watertight. Every shell is made of 6 fibreglass panels which are then clamped together and every joint is then fibreglassed to create a one-piece shell. This is the optimum method of ensuring that the body of the caravan remains waterproof for as long as possible.

 

[Jcloughie]

further to this point, In UK law it is the buyer who should verify the product on offer is suitable for the purpose they intend. Consequently as a buyer you need to ask all the questions before you decide to buy a product.

Whilst the law says you should be able to trust the information a dealer supplies about a product, for example the information in an advert or a brochure they use and any verbal information they supply, the law does not require them to provide all the information, but what information is supplied must be accurate. This is frustrating especially for a novices who might not know what questions to ask, but here again the Law takes the view that a dealer who sells a product should use his specialist knowledge and experience to guide customers to make the best choices.

That is why a good dealer will engage with the customer and try to ascertain the customers expectations for the product and their likely usage of the product. The dealer should then use their knowledge to point out any glaring or important mismatches so the customer can make an informed decision.

It is in the best interests of both the customer and the seller that all parties agree the product is well matched to the intended purpose the customer has indicated.

It should also be noted that if a dealer/seller becomes aware that a customers expectations or stated use is incompatible with the product, they can refuse to sell it, thus preventing on going warranty claims or breaches of contract.

Not sure I understand your comments in relation the the OP’s proplem. Might well be me.

Are you suggesting that the OP may have had usage expectations beyond, or other than leisure.

A buyer can also rely on inferred for their expectation of a product.

1. to conclude (a state of affairs, supposition, etc) by reasoning from evidence; deduce.
2. ( transitive) to have or lead to as a necessary or logical consequence; indicate.

John

 

[Jcloughie]

Section 75 claim been closed on ne because I can’t get report! Am so bloomin fed up

It MAY be that a report would speed up and smooth out a claim. But it may not necessarily mean that it is a demand that can be made.

Again, legal advice is my suggestion. And WHICH is a good method to achieve this.

John

 

[Dustydog]

Not sure I understand your comments in relation the the OP’s proplem. Might well be me.

Are you suggesting that the OP may have had usage expectations beyond, or other than leisure.

A buyer can also rely on inferred for their expectation of a product.

1. to conclude (a state of affairs, supposition, etc) by reasoning from evidence; deduce.
2. ( transitive) to have or lead to as a necessary or logical consequence; indicate.

John

See JTQ #34.
He asked a reasonable question . Hence Prof’s epistle.
It’s a bit like selling a boat and saying it can’t be used in water🤣🤣

 

[JTQ]

It’s a bit like selling a boat and saying it can’t be used in water🤣🤣

Yes, though probably quite a bit more analogous than we might think DD 😉

That a boat sold in Norfolk ostensibly for pottering up and down the Broads, is I suggest not necessarily also going to cope well with that round the globe trip we have in mind. Though in both cases, "used in water".

Boat or caravan, plus a far bit more we have to select them for the job in hand.
With the case here, I would not have assumed the Freedom was going to fair well as an all-seasons caravan. Sadly, if in that I am "right" I feel that aspect has the potential to wrong foot the OP's case.