How long before British manufacturers loose their market ?

[JohnnyV]

My wife and I were at the NEC on Saturday, am I alone in thinking that the British Manufacturers are stagnating ?
We basically found ourselves criticising all of the vans on display - don't get me wrong there are some nice vans out there, but nothing is really any better than it was - where is the innovation, where are the quality improvements ? All I could see were minor changes such as moving a switch, changing a light, or adding a front roof light - all laudable improvements but nothing that really 'stands out'.
The Bailey Alutech may prove to be a giant leap forward, but internally they are just variations on a theme - we came away honestly saying that there was nothing that would tempt us to upgrade our two year old van - in fact quite the reverse, many looked cheaper with big lumps of plastic everywhere.
Whilst at the show I was shown a video taken at Dusseldorf show - Wow have you seen some of the finish and ideas from companies such as Dethleffs, a van with a bed that lowers from the ceiling electrically, ok their might be cost, weight, & centre of gravity issues but at least they are innovating and the interior quality looked stunning, how about slide out sides (a la motorhome), again weight might be an issue but I heard that a European manufacturer is working on exactly this set up.
I am a great supporter of Buy British - but if our manufacturers don't wake up, and if the exchange rate allows these European competitors in, then in all honesty how long will it be before we all have foreign vans ?
We still seem to operate here as a Cottage Industry - why is your warranty only with dealer you purchased from, if you buy a Ford car you take it to any Ford dealer who repairs it under warranty and bills Ford - Come on all of youBritish manufacturers wake up before its too late !
Or maybe its just me ?
Cheers
Jon

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi,I don't see any mention of your visit or not!,or even a passing glance at the Swift/Sterling little stunner's; or the big ones if you are into Twin Axle Caravans. It is my view that this new concept has put a whole new slant on caravan front end interiors. I think that it is a "Little More" than moving switches and playing about with scatter cushions etc.

 

[DavidKlyne]

Jon

Its intersting that the very European manufacturers you mention have tried to break into the UK market but without much success. In fact several have withdrawn UK models as clearly they did not sell enough to make it worth while. I can't see European caravans being anything but a niche market for the next few years. Now it might be different if Hobby were to make UK specific models as they are generally in the lower price bands but even then to bring them up to the same level of equipment provided by UK manufacturers would erode that price advantage, particular as you say with Sterling being at a low point compared to the Euro.

David

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello jon

With reference to your comment
"We still seem to operate here as a Cottage Industry - why is your warranty only with dealer you purchased from, if you buy a Ford car you take it to any Ford dealer who repairs it under warranty and bills Ford “

You have misunderstood what a warranty is:-

Whenever you make a retail purchase, you expect the goods or services to be fit for purpose and free from defects. The law also requires this as defined in the Sale of Goods Acts (SoGA). It is therefore assumed that when you make a retail purchase, the seller is confident that the goods will comply, and that is your warranty even if no specific document to that effect is given.

Because it is a contract between the seller and the buyer, the warranty only exists between the seller and the buyer, which is why warranty work can only be undertaken by the seller to the original purchaser. These are your normal legal rights.

However, most manufacturers also offer a manufactures guarantee. This has nothing to do with warranty and is entirely different in the way it is established and operates. Manufacturers are not legally obliged to offer a guarantee, so it’s a gift from the manufacture.

It is not a statement about the condition of the goods, it is a statement about how the manufacture will respond if certain specified events occur.

Most caravan manufactures will allow guarantee work to be carried out by any participating dealer even if they did not supply the caravan – almost identical to the Ford scenario you gave.
There are areas of overlap between warranty and guarantee, so some issues that should properly be dealt with by the supplier can with the approval of the manufacture be remedied by other participating dealers.

 

[chrisbee1]

If the Japanese decided to break into the caravan market you can be sure our manufacturers would go the same way our motorcycle companies did some years ago!

 

[trickydicky]

Hello JohnnyV,
I don't think that UK caravan manufacturers are asleep.If Swifts,Baileys and all the others have got anything about them,then they will be analysing the competition as a matter of routine,because this is what makes a successful buisness, to be competitive.If they have a market share of say 90% in a free market,then it doesn't say a deal for the continental manufacturers.They must be giving consumers what they want,otherwise you would have a situation similar to the car industry.
Cheers Richard

 

[followmycaravan]

I wish everything stayed just the away it was when I was a kid, most of the caravans were manufactured in Britain. Unfortunately, times have changed.

 

[JohnnyV]

Hi all,
Maybe I was being a little provocative - I take the point re some of the recent changes (such as the Swift rooflight), the point I was really making was that having spent several hours looking inside all the different makes at the NEC none seemed to stand out - they were all variations on a theme - I recognise that most of us are ultra conservative (hence the host of negative comments that have appeared re both Stealth & Alutec) however at one time so was the British car buyer - I know I used to sell Austin's in a previous life & also had a Hillman as my first car.
I think that having seen some of the more upmarket 'experiments' being tested by some of the Continentals could show the way forward - it is a truism that if you just stand still you will get left behind !
What if the continentals could offer a van at UK prices that was more luxurious, better engineered and finished, with a better warranty back up - then what would happen ??
Look at the UK truck market who remembers AEC, Seddon, Atkinson, Guy, Scammel, Bristol, Bedford, Commer, and to a lesser extent ERF & Foden - when did you last see a Truck that wasn't a Volvo, Scania, Mercedes, DAF, or MAN ?
I sincerely hope that I am wrong and that UK manufacturers are monitoring the possible competition and making plans to beat them - it just seems as though they do just enough to maintain their share of the cake - why not some concept work like you see from the car manufacturers to judge consumer moods.
Anyway it may just be me - just hope I am proved wrong !

 

[NigelDonnelly]

Dear All,
Interesting thread.
I had a long chat with Adria in 2008 when the company still ran Fleetwood and one of their product guys (Boris) spent days trying to cost up a Bailey Pageant. He said that the high level of equipment demanded by UK buyers, combined with the nearside door and adherence to 85% guidelines (which don't exist in Europe) led them to conclude that they couldn't compete on price and equipment, particular after the strength of the Euro was taken into account. Despite what you might imagine, UK vans are very good value, even if some models lack the 'glam' of their European cousins.
There are some stunning German vans in particular - the Fendt models look amazing, but would you pay over £20k for a caravan with the door on the wrong side and no oven?
The best we saw ( as far as I'm concerned) were the Knaus Starclass models that Hants and Dorset bought in until Discover Leisure took them over. They were UK spec, layout and price and absolutely stunning. Shame supply stopped, but the price would have soared by now.

 

[Lutz]

I basically agree with what Nigel has written. The market demands over here on the Continent are so different to those of the UK that they cannot compete on equal grounds. If a Continental manufacturer wants to take UK preferences into account he must decide whether these will be in addition to those on the home market, which will make the product very expensive because it will have just about everything, or instead of those on the home market, which would make their UK model so different from the rest of their production that the relatively low volumes would not be viable. The few that have attempted to enter the UK market have generally taken the first route. This is probably why there is this perception that Continental caravans are so great but also very expensive. About the only manufacturer that has, to some extent, gone the other way with any success is Adria and, for a short time before they went broke, Knaus, with the Starclass that Nigel mentioned (although even these were expensive, too). A special case is Geist, but that is basically a UK and a German company in what amounts to a joint venture (although I don't know the exact details of their relationship to one another).
One will find that in their home markets, even what some consider as luxury caravans do not have a battery (practically no equivalent to CL sites, therefore no need), nor is it common to have an oven. Another difference is that the Continentals prefer single axle caravans to twins, even for the really big ones. That's, for instance, why AlKo are so proud of their new 2000kg single axle chassis which all manufacturers are trying to get a hold of, but only one has secured sole rights for during the first year of production.
Another big difference is that Continental caravanners, on the whole, use their caravans more for longer stays further afield rather than just for a weekend away. This means that not so much time is spent towing compared with the total length of stay at the site and they use more motorways more to get there. 2.5m wide caravans are the norm for all larger caravans as these are quite manageable on motorways, but may prove a shade unwieldly for regular weekend use on narrow English country lanes. All twin axles available on the Continent are 2.5m wide, though.

 

[Dustydog]

My wife and I were at the NEC on Saturday, am I alone in thinking that the British Manufacturers are stagnating ?
.
The Bailey Alutech may prove to be a giant leap forward, but internally they are just variations on a theme - we came away honestly saying that there was nothing that would tempt us to upgrade our two year old van - in fact quite the reverse, many looked cheaper with big lumps of plastic everywhere.
Or maybe its just me ?
Cheers
Jon

As far as I know sales of new caravans are doing well.
The two Club's sites are well sponsored.
All year round caravanning is increasing.
Forum like this one are well supported.
Is it us tuggers just wanting more and more rather than the Industry stagnating?
Alu-tech? Time will tell but even so a 10 year water ingress guarantee is not stagnating in my book.
I anticipate Swift and others will soon come up with their version of Alu-tech. In the interim they have done an excellent cosmetic job on the latest offerings which are of course still traditionally built.
Remember no one wanted to support James Dyson and his bagless vacuum cleaner. Now everyone makes their own bagless version!
I spent quite a bit of time exploring both the new Swifts and the Bailey Unicorn. Very pretty but imo they didn't do anymore than my Wyoming.
Maybe it's time I regressed back to a good old Blacks ridge tent

 

[ProfJohnL]

Johnny V,

For the reasons I gave above there can be no such thing as "warranty back up" as warranty only describes the condition of the goods at the time of sale. It occurs in the past and onl7 applies to the seller. The future in this context is covered by the guarantee.

 

[JonnyG]

Hello jon

With reference to your comment
"We still seem to operate here as a Cottage Industry - why is your warranty only with dealer you purchased from, if you buy a Ford car you take it to any Ford dealer who repairs it under warranty and bills Ford “

You have misunderstood what a warranty is:-

Whenever you make a retail purchase, you expect the goods or services to be fit for purpose and free from defects. The law also requires this as defined in the Sale of Goods Acts (SoGA). It is therefore assumed that when you make a retail purchase, the seller is confident that the goods will comply, and that is your warranty even if no specific document to that effect is given.

Because it is a contract between the seller and the buyer, the warranty only exists between the seller and the buyer, which is why warranty work can only be undertaken by the seller to the original purchaser. These are your normal legal rights.

However, most manufacturers also offer a manufactures guarantee. This has nothing to do with warranty and is entirely different in the way it is established and operates. Manufacturers are not legally obliged to offer a guarantee, so it’s a gift from the manufacture.

It is not a statement about the condition of the goods, it is a statement about how the manufacture will respond if certain specified events occur.

Most caravan manufactures will allow guarantee work to be carried out by any participating dealer even if they did not supply the caravan – almost identical to the Ford scenario you gave.

There are areas of overlap between warranty and guarantee, so some issues that should properly be dealt with by the supplier can with the approval of the manufacture be remedied by other participating dealers.

I am sure you have technically explained this word perfect, but prof, it gave me an headache just trying to understand the difference and how it relates to us the purchaser. Warranty , guarantee ! However or whichever way you look at it, a new vehicle is covered by the makers for at least 12 months, some even longer providing you follow their stipulations. In the auto world you almost certainly see the word 12 months warranty or 3 years warranty ect ect and not 12 months guarantee being stipulated by the manufacturer. In all this time you always have the manufacturer to fall back on regardless of your rights under the SOGA.
I also understand or have been led to believe Euro law gives you even more rights than the SOGA, as anything sold in Euro land has even better protection these day than the original SOGA... I could be wrong, but .......at least I don't believe one can get a headache from reading this.......LOL

 

[JohnnyV]

Well it seems that most think 'nothing is going to happen'
Nigel - I would agree price would be the main factor, this may change in the future, and the types of developments I was talking about do not conflict with Lutz's comments - they would apply to both markets (albeit that they might have to add cookers etc for UK) - can we have some coverage in the magazine of some of the Continental 'stuff' maybe it would change my opinion ?
Dusty, - Your point about James Dyson, and the fact that you have "seen nothing better than my Wyoming" is exactly the point that I was making - why haven't you ? As I said stand still and in effect you go backwards - also agree entirely have seen nothing that would entice us to change our Delta.
John G - Agree, think Prof's answer is probably 'spot on' but all I care about is that someone fixes it if it goes wrong and ideally they would be as near to my house as possible.
Appreciate your views
Regards
Jon

 

[OmOnWeelz]

With thanks to Labours years of reckless spending the UK caravan industry only has a finger on the wheel rather than both hands steering its chosen path.
Cost of livng soaring along with tax's and 20%vat, increased pension contributions and low interest rates for savings, 500000+ heading for the dole queue and social housing rents rising along with travel costs.
Many may buy now before the reality hits home, give it a few more months and caravan and other leisure good sales are likely to go in to free fall and thats before the morally bankrupt EU tries to inpose new tax's on us.
If the coming depression doesn't do for the caravan industry a raid by venture capalists will probably do for it. The UK car industry has gone and if they can make LH & RH drive cars with alll the expenses with steering racks, peddles , dash's and hand brakes an EU built caravan with a door on the other side and an oven and building on readily avialable twin axle chassis will not be a problem if the market and margins are there.
Risking new ideas in the current economic mayhem could be a big mistake for any manufacturer. At the moment financial survival will be the driving factor for suppliers and end users rather than new styles and innovation

 

[Lutz]

The UK car industry has gone and if they can make LH & RH drive cars with alll the expenses with steering racks, peddles , dash's and hand brakes an EU built caravan with a door on the other side and an oven and building on readily avialable twin axle chassis will not be a problem if the market and margins are there.

But the car industry benefits from the volume of sales of right hand drive vehicles in other markets, too. This is an advantage that Continental caravan manufacturers which don't export outside Europe don't have. The availability of twin axle chassis is not a problem, it's the non-availability of base models of 2.3m wide twin axle caravans from which to build a left-hand door version.

 

[OmOnWeelz]

Some small volume car builders also cope buildig LH and RH models. Left handed and right handed door panels and what is little more than a layout swap around is not going to break the bank compared to all the differing needs of LH and RH cars of the same model.
European caravan also manufacturers have an isnstant supply of however many 2.3 metre wide chassis they wanted or is supply outside UK borders beyond AlKo. We are after all supposed to be part of one European state.

According to Alko
"Chassis supplied to the UK Caravan Manufacturers are designed using the latest CAD packages in our Engineering Department, here in the UK. Actual production of the chassis take place in our state-of-the art manufacturing facility in Kötz, Germany, where economies of scale can be fully employed. The axles and axle components are subsequently manufactured here at our head office in Warwickshire"
If it's worth AlKo's efforts to ship the UK spec chassis through Germany passing through say France, Belgium or Holland I doubt that the'd take long sorting out dropping them of gto German ,French or Dutch caravan manufacturers or getting a UK sized Axle to them

 

[Lutz]

The issue is not just moving the dor from one side to the other, but practically the entire interior layout has got to be mirrored, too. This is something that car manufacturers don't have to do.
I did say that 2.3. wide twin axle chassis wouldn't be an issue because AlKo and/or BPW produce them already. It's the caravan manufacturers that don't have any 2.3m wide layouts to go on those chassis, so new ones would have to be designed exclusively for the UK market.

 

[OmOnWeelz]

Excuse me, I'm praying for strength here

Manufacturers can re jig layouts season to season. In many cases the ends of the caravan would remain much the same. Manufcaturers can fit a varitey of layouts in ths same sized shell to suggest that swapping left to right is a big expensive restrctive problem is a complete nonsense.
If British manufacturers start to lose their way any European manufacturer will soon find that they have the ability to change production for more profit.
Making a 2.3 metre design revision is not a long job on what is only a mobile box with cupboards for a CAD designer

. Ask one, I have!

 

[JonnyG]

We are talking caravans here, and not cars. The British public are more than happy to buy Germany French ect cars, but caravans?
Burstner have a very good name on the continent building statics, motor homes and caravans. they launched a range specifically aimed at the British public doors on the right side [our left] and layouts that are common here in the UK. Pricing was also very competitive but they pulled out 2 years ago due to the public wanting British rather than continental.If more proof was needed the second hand prices of these outfits were a steal compared to what was on offer from British manufacturers, i should know bought a 2004 burstner for 8k at the binging of 2007! For that money I couldn't get a equivalent Baileys younger than say a 2000 model.....Simply but the vast majority of British caravan buyers would rather buy British when it comes to caravans. Regardless of whether or not continental vans are as good or not....

 

[Lutz]

Making a 2.3 metre design revision is not a long job on what is only a mobile box with cupboards for a CAD designer

. Ask one, I have!

Agreed, designing one is, as you say, not a big issue, (CAD can easily mirror an interior design), but the parts have to be sourced too, and extra floor space has to be allocated for stocking twice the number of parts, both for production and for service. If new factory buildings have to be erected to store these parts because the necessary space is currently not available, that can be an expensive undertaking.

 

[OmOnWeelz]

How many dealers did Burstner have? If you take on a new market you need to make sure you have a large dealer network to cover the country.
Stocking parts is no dfferent than having an extra model in the range really. LH or RH the caravan still needs many of the same interior parts and again the ends in many cases would syay much the same. Good designers would design build process allowing for swap over with parts such as side cupboards and kitchen set-ups.
Failure of continental manufacturers to make inroads to UK sales is likely to be based on UK build problem experiences. A Swift or Lunar with a problem has a factory here that will hopefully have the van back to resolve a problem, Buy a Knaus or other foreign van and that changes unless you have a full network and prove build quality and reliability of build.

 

[xtrailman]

Why not just fit two doors?
Many uk owners would find that a bonus.
And offer modular furniture to cover the door unused?

 

[JohnnyV]

Whoops - seem to have opened a minefield !
If I was going to introduce a range of vans into the UK one thing that I think I would do is look at how they were serviced or had 'warranty' repairs done, why not utilise approved mobile sevicing engineers I figure this would apeal to most owners - you would still need a workshop somewhere for major works, but you could manage with one and offer a 'free' collection and delivery service ?
I take the point about most caravan purchasers preferring British - yes so would I, but not if there was something superior out there at a competitive cost - for example you could tailor make vans - standard pattern but with 'extras' fitted to the customer spec (microwave, small or large fridge, TV, DVD/CD player etc) you might wait longer to get your new van but you wouldn't pay for things that you didn't want ?
Don't think we are going to see a flood of Continental manufacturers entering the UK market anytime soon - but I bet it will happen at some point !
Jon

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Hi all, regards servicing and warranty work, we bought a brand new Bailey California last year from a supplier almost 200 miles from where we live. The reason being that we saved a considerable amount of money on the deal (part ex on our 2007 Bailey Arizona) plus we payed no delivery charge, the local dealers could get no where near to matching what we were being offered and when asked where we were purchasing the new van we were met with a sharp intake of breath, silly smile on there face quickly followed by ahh, if you have any warranty issues even though we are Bailey dealers we give priority to customers who have purchased from us (IE long wait) or you could end up taking it back to the supplying dealer. well it has just had it`s first service at a local Bailey approved workshop at Long Eaton Nott`s, who do not retail caravans but purely service and repair, we had a couple of warranty issues that were sorted out with no problems whatsoever, unlike the supplying dealer of the Arizona who`s after service was abysmal. So yes from my experience you can buy away from home and still get a good level of service.