Following the article in the current Caravan Club magazine, how many of us are using illegal towing mirrors. It seems we now how to have a mirror which has the 'E' mark on it and we can be heavily fined for not doing so. The stupid thing is we can still buy these mirrors, but cannot use them! Yet again the consumer is penalized whilst the responsibility should, in my opinion, lie with the manufacturer. Surely we buy mirrors in good faith that we are buying a product that is suitable for it's purpose.
Illegal towing mirrors
- Thread starter Chrissylizzie
- Start date
It's strange that neither VOSA nor CC has any details on this - the CC article openly relise on information from Milenco who stand to gain a huge increase in revenue if we all go out and buy new mirrors.
The reality is that Milenco are the only organisation providing this information - draw your own conclusions.
The reality is that Milenco are the only organisation providing this information - draw your own conclusions.
Having read the questions and answers on this subject, taking the whole of page 22 of the current Caravan Club magazine, I am non the wiser - in fact totally confused!
It seems that only Milenco sell the correct mirrors, and no doubt they are expensive (I haven't checked).
Until the situation is made more clear, I don't feel inclined to throw my mirrors away and buy Milenco ones - will have to take a chance on using the old ones. I wonder how many people will comply with the new law.
It seems that only Milenco sell the correct mirrors, and no doubt they are expensive (I haven't checked).
Until the situation is made more clear, I don't feel inclined to throw my mirrors away and buy Milenco ones - will have to take a chance on using the old ones. I wonder how many people will comply with the new law.
If you read "ask your club" in the latest,May,edition of the Caravan Club magazine carefully, you will actually find some good advice there.
In effect they seem to be saying that if you have a new car registered after January 26th then you should according to the strict letter of the law buy new 'E' marked mirrors.Given that the law is in general an ass,and that the average policeman these days can't even be bothered to record road traffic accidents if reported to them,then I would guess the chances of being fined are negligible,but could happen.
For older cars registered before that date their advice seems to be that you can continue using your existing mirrors.
My own milenco mirrors date back to 2004,as does my car, and are not 'E' marked.
I were to buy a new car I think I would probably replace the existing mirrors to be safe.
In effect they seem to be saying that if you have a new car registered after January 26th then you should according to the strict letter of the law buy new 'E' marked mirrors.Given that the law is in general an ass,and that the average policeman these days can't even be bothered to record road traffic accidents if reported to them,then I would guess the chances of being fined are negligible,but could happen.
For older cars registered before that date their advice seems to be that you can continue using your existing mirrors.
My own milenco mirrors date back to 2004,as does my car, and are not 'E' marked.
I were to buy a new car I think I would probably replace the existing mirrors to be safe.
As I've said in a similar thread elsewhere in this forum, yes, the mirrors should be E-marked, but that doesn't mean that one should allow one's self to be intimidated and to throw away perfectly good mirrors that they have been using for years and then go ahead to buy appropriately E-marked ones at the first opportunity. I cannot imagine that the powers-that-be will go around scrunitising existing mirrors. They've got better things to do, and besides, I doubt whether most of them even know what an E-mark was, even if they saw one.
The intent is to ensure that the mirrors meet certain minimum performance requirements as specified under EEC directive 71/127/EEC and/or ECE directive 46 and a well designed mirror will do that whether it is E-marked or not.
The intent is to ensure that the mirrors meet certain minimum performance requirements as specified under EEC directive 71/127/EEC and/or ECE directive 46 and a well designed mirror will do that whether it is E-marked or not.
Thanks for the interpretation Frank. Since my car was purchased after the operative date, but pre registered before, it would appear that I am safe to continue using the old ones. As you say I think a policeman might have difficulty interpreting the rules too.
Keith
Keith
i thought it was if used for commercial purposes,anyway round here you cant gat a policeman out if theres a gang of hooligans running wild,let alone to check emarks.
Frank you gave me hope so I re-read the CC article
Sadly it I read it says Jan 2007 not 2008
Decisions decisions
Sadly it I read it says Jan 2007 not 2008
Decisions decisions
At the NEC show in February I asked the staff on the Repusel stand about this particular point. Their view was that the legislation was primarily about commercial vehicle rear view mirrors and linking it to towing morrors was very tenuous.
Come on CC you can do better than this surely, members would expect you to be the experts in towing law as applied to caravans. If it is the law then the CC should have no problem in finding out which one and the full facts from VOSA, ACPO etc. By going to Milenco they were never going to get impartial advis.
As far as I can see Milenco are the only ones issuing this information. How are UK and other European authorities interpreting it in practice. Have there beeen any prosecutions?
Come on CC you can do better than this surely, members would expect you to be the experts in towing law as applied to caravans. If it is the law then the CC should have no problem in finding out which one and the full facts from VOSA, ACPO etc. By going to Milenco they were never going to get impartial advis.
As far as I can see Milenco are the only ones issuing this information. How are UK and other European authorities interpreting it in practice. Have there beeen any prosecutions?
Deli dave said "i thought it was if used for commercial purposes,anyway round here you cant gat a policeman out if theres a gang of hooligans running wild,let alone to check emarks"
With this government its all about money and if there is income from Fixed Penalty Notices you can be sure they will look at it. Dealing with hooligans running wild is much more difficult to stop and costs money [and real Police Officers].
With this government its all about money and if there is income from Fixed Penalty Notices you can be sure they will look at it. Dealing with hooligans running wild is much more difficult to stop and costs money [and real Police Officers].
Here's the lowdown from the Department of Transport:
From: Rohan Pohl [mailto:Rohan.Pohl@dft.gsi.gov.uk]
Sent: 30 April 2008 14:23
To: dan@pyramid-products.co.uk
Subject: Mirrors
Dan,
As discussed, we know that 2003/97/EC doesn't come into play for new cars until 26th January 2010 and that the caravan mirror requirements follow the vehicle rqeuirement..
Therefore, if the mirror is already in use, or newly purchased - E marking is preferred but not required.
If a NEW car is purchased after 26th January 2010, then new compliant and E marked caravan mirrors will be required.
Yours sincerely
Rohan Pohl
Department for Transport
Transport Technology & Standards Division Branch 4
Zone 2/05
Great Minster House
76 Marsham Street
London
SW1P 4DR
Tel: 0207 944 2091
Fax: 0207 944 2196 E-mail: Rohan.Pohl@dft.gsi.gov.uk
Web: www.dft.gov.uk
From: Rohan Pohl [mailto:Rohan.Pohl@dft.gsi.gov.uk]
Sent: 30 April 2008 14:23
To: dan@pyramid-products.co.uk
Subject: Mirrors
Dan,
As discussed, we know that 2003/97/EC doesn't come into play for new cars until 26th January 2010 and that the caravan mirror requirements follow the vehicle rqeuirement..
Therefore, if the mirror is already in use, or newly purchased - E marking is preferred but not required.
If a NEW car is purchased after 26th January 2010, then new compliant and E marked caravan mirrors will be required.
Yours sincerely
Rohan Pohl
Department for Transport
Transport Technology & Standards Division Branch 4
Zone 2/05
Great Minster House
76 Marsham Street
London
SW1P 4DR
Tel: 0207 944 2091
Fax: 0207 944 2196 E-mail: Rohan.Pohl@dft.gsi.gov.uk
Web: www.dft.gov.uk
I started a similar thread under towing and driving safely.
Catherine's post is a real eye opener and appears to be totally contradictory to the CC magazine article.
The Caravan Club should hang its head in shame for producing such a misleading article and effectively handing over a page of the magazine to an advertiser to provide an "expert opinion".
Both Bailey and Swift have raised the bar in terms of responding to issues raised on this forum. I'd like to see the CC take a similar stance and comment appropriately on this matter and its reasoning in producing this article. It is even more annoying that the magazine was accompanied by a leaflet from the same advertiser extolling the virtues of their towing mirrors and other products.
Catherine's post is a real eye opener and appears to be totally contradictory to the CC magazine article.
The Caravan Club should hang its head in shame for producing such a misleading article and effectively handing over a page of the magazine to an advertiser to provide an "expert opinion".
Both Bailey and Swift have raised the bar in terms of responding to issues raised on this forum. I'd like to see the CC take a similar stance and comment appropriately on this matter and its reasoning in producing this article. It is even more annoying that the magazine was accompanied by a leaflet from the same advertiser extolling the virtues of their towing mirrors and other products.
ive just checked my mirrors that i purchased just 6 month ago from harringtons leisure in delamere, they are made by pyramid products and boast as being proclaimed "superb value" by the caravan club and guess what they have No E mark what so ever !.
So are my mirrors illegal ? my S max is a 2007 aug reg so if i take the clubs advice then they are very illegal but if i take the advice of Rohan Pohl then they are not ?, im going to ring harringtons tomorow and see what they say as the club allso states that they can be fined and receive points for aiding and abbeting an offence, seems to me if this is true then the boss of every caravan accesory store in the uk is allmost certainly going to lose theire licence with the amount of non E marked mirrors being sold.
Ive just got back today from the caribean where most families travel 3 or 4 on one motorbike or scooter and in this bloody hell hole we call home we are penalised for not having a flaming E logo on a mirror it makes my blood boil.
So are my mirrors illegal ? my S max is a 2007 aug reg so if i take the clubs advice then they are very illegal but if i take the advice of Rohan Pohl then they are not ?, im going to ring harringtons tomorow and see what they say as the club allso states that they can be fined and receive points for aiding and abbeting an offence, seems to me if this is true then the boss of every caravan accesory store in the uk is allmost certainly going to lose theire licence with the amount of non E marked mirrors being sold.
Ive just got back today from the caribean where most families travel 3 or 4 on one motorbike or scooter and in this bloody hell hole we call home we are penalised for not having a flaming E logo on a mirror it makes my blood boil.
Don't take it all too seriously, Icemaker. The CC is not the definitive source of all information. I'd trust the contents of a letter from the Dept. for Transport a lot more than anything I read in a magazine. Besides, can you imagine anyone being fined and/or getting points because of a missing E-mark? If the powers-that-be do their job properly, they'd have to check whether the proper E-mark is present on all other components on the vehicle where it is required (all exterior lamps, all glass, seat belts, just to name a few)
Hi Icemaker
That was exactly my initial reaction together with the feeling that yet another part of our lives was being legislated for doubtful reasons. We holidayed in the Canary Islands earlier in the year and saw so many things considered to be part of normal everyday life, which over here, the Health and Safety would be creating about. If only there was SOME way we could say 'enough is enough' as for me, it is all wearing a bit thin.
That was exactly my initial reaction together with the feeling that yet another part of our lives was being legislated for doubtful reasons. We holidayed in the Canary Islands earlier in the year and saw so many things considered to be part of normal everyday life, which over here, the Health and Safety would be creating about. If only there was SOME way we could say 'enough is enough' as for me, it is all wearing a bit thin.
Icemaker,
When all this hoo haa started up a short while back, I checked my mirrors, also 6 months old, also from Pyramid and no E mark. I emailed Pyramid who assured me that they complied with the legislation but that they would be happy to change them for E Marked mirrors.
I accept this offer and a couple of weeks later, a couple of mirrors, glass only, arrived in the post. Again, no E Mark. I emailed them again and they said that dispatch had made a mistake, they'll send some replacements out. A few weeks later, a letter arrived from Pyramid containing two silvered stickers with the E mark printed on them. Eh?!?!! LOL
So presumably, I'm meant to just stick these E mark stickers on the mirrors and they're legal? Hmmmm. Anyone could get some silvered stickers from any good stationers and print their own E mark and stick them on their mirrors. There. Job done. ;-)
When all this hoo haa started up a short while back, I checked my mirrors, also 6 months old, also from Pyramid and no E mark. I emailed Pyramid who assured me that they complied with the legislation but that they would be happy to change them for E Marked mirrors.
I accept this offer and a couple of weeks later, a couple of mirrors, glass only, arrived in the post. Again, no E Mark. I emailed them again and they said that dispatch had made a mistake, they'll send some replacements out. A few weeks later, a letter arrived from Pyramid containing two silvered stickers with the E mark printed on them. Eh?!?!! LOL
So presumably, I'm meant to just stick these E mark stickers on the mirrors and they're legal? Hmmmm. Anyone could get some silvered stickers from any good stationers and print their own E mark and stick them on their mirrors. There. Job done. ;-)
Interesting message on Milencos website. See attached link
http://www.milenco.com/mirror-cc-update.html
http://www.milenco.com/mirror-cc-update.html
When this issue settles down with some reliable facts, as it will eventually, I'll ensure that I'm legal but it's still a farce as far as I'm concerned
By introducing an approval system for outside rear view mirrors, as documented by the E-mark, (by the way, it applies to the standard mirrors, too) the lawmakers only wanted to ensure that mirrors actually fulfil certain specified performance criteria, making them 'fit for the purpose', i.e. that the field of view is adequate and that they are not a hazard to pedestrians, etc.
Catherine
If you could get this information, why couldn't the CC? Isn't the CC in serious breach of it's indepedent status by publishing what is blatantly free and misleading advertising material - given Milenco are so knowledgeable of the regulations, you can only wonder why they ommitted the dates!
This is not what I expect from the CC.
Alan
If you could get this information, why couldn't the CC? Isn't the CC in serious breach of it's indepedent status by publishing what is blatantly free and misleading advertising material - given Milenco are so knowledgeable of the regulations, you can only wonder why they ommitted the dates!
This is not what I expect from the CC.
Alan
Need to go to the right dealers - Chichester Caravans in Redhill keep on top of this sort of thing, and, unlike the CC's apalling association with Milenco, I have no connection with Chichester Caravans!!!!
The article is confusing to say the least. I phoned Wandahome at Ferrybridge who tell me that they don't sell Milenco mirrors, but that their mirror supplier has spoken to the D.oT who have stated that "E" marked mirrors will not be made compulsory until 2010.
Hi all
At he end of the day we'd seem to be the only people that take any notice of EC directives. They bring out directives like confetti and like good little soldiers here in UK, they say jump we are forced to say how high. The rest of the EU just does its own thing.
At he end of the day we'd seem to be the only people that take any notice of EC directives. They bring out directives like confetti and like good little soldiers here in UK, they say jump we are forced to say how high. The rest of the EU just does its own thing.
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