Is 65 - 70 MPH Safe??

[Litespeed]

This is a bit of a how long is a piece of string question, but given that it is perfectly legal to tow at 65 or even 70+ mph in france, is it safe? Do they have more accidents over there than us Brits?

Is speed a contributing factor to caravan accidents? Speed certainly contributes to reactions and stopping times but is it more likely to cause a snake?

OK youve got to be a complete muppet to tow downhill at 70mph, but what about along a flat, straight road that is devoid of trafic? Is the vean just as likely to develope a snake at 50 than 70? I realise that'possibly' a snake might be easier to control at 50.

I towed across France last year and kept my speed around the 65 mph mark yet other caravanners (usually Dutch or Belgium)were flying past me.

 

[Cockovan]

Hi Lightspeed,

You have opened a can of worms here!

I personally regard teh French speed limits as generally safe and have towed up to 80mph BUT I believe we have well set up outfit, a lot of experience and always take road conditions into consideration when driving at such speeds. In15 yrs of European touring we have only seen 2 van accidents, but in terms of actual statistics I don't know.

Obviously anything that happens is easier to deal with the slower you are driving, so should we all drive at 30 (as Jeremy Clarkson implies anyway). Surely, within the legal limits we should all have sufficient intellegence to drive within our our comfort zone and the capabilities of the outfit. It is largely when people go outside this limits that the accidents occur, they are trying to keep up with... rushing because .... etc.

If you are happy at 65mph why push it, I tend to drive at 70mph on the motorways but even then you are aware of howmuch more fuel you are using than at 60mph (at 80 you can see the fuel gauge going down). The older I get the less we rush, we plan the time more carefully and balance fuel costs against time, experience itself doesn't mean the faster I go!

Hope this personal view helps

Alan

 

[cooky1]

I tend to tow around the 60-65mph mark when in France, As my speedo is probably not that accurate, I am probably doing about 60mph. I find my outfit stable at 65, but I have gone up to 70+ on quiet roads in good weather conditions. When the traffic builds up or if it is a bit windy, I slow down to 60ish. I think that a lot depends upon how well you load your caravan, checking that the noseweight is correct for your car and how well matched your outfit is. I don't think I am unsafe towing at 65 when conditions allow, but I always slow down when conditions dictate.

 

[rob_jax]

Hi Litespeed,

Yes you probably have, and it's a good question too.

1. You need to check your caravan handbook - there may be a statement in there about maximum permissible speed.

Our Eriba Touring caravan (Hymer group) has a statement in the owners manual that the caravan has only been tested and warrantied at speeds of up to 100 kph I guess that if you ignore this, then your insurance company many not be obliging in case of an accident

2. You need to check the speed rating of your caravan tyres - for Tempo 100 in Germany - the permission to tow at 100 kph rather than 80 kph - you need to have at least L speed rated tyres.

A similar prorata upgrade (it's about 25% on top of the maximum speed) in tyre speed rating would seem to be a good idea if you are going to tug your tin tent at 130 kph.

3. And talking of tyres - setting the correct cold pressure is an importnat safety and stability issue.

4. Another section of the German Tempo 100 rules states that you must have shock absorbers fitted if you want to tow at 100 kph

Again, standard on German caravans - these have a positive effect of stability - and it would make sense to have them fitted for UK motorway driving, let alone autoroute driving

5. The reason a caravan needs a nose-weight is to counteract the negative nose-weight from aerodynamic forces acting on the front of the caravan - the effect of the air hitting the front is to try to lift (rotate) the coupling upwards.

Aerodynamic forces are a square power relationship, double the speed and you quadruple the force. That extra 20 mph (30 kph) is going to decrease nose-weight and stability by a very substantial amount.

So overall, stick with what you are happy at - maybe around 100 kph shouldn't cause you any unnecessary problems with traffic flow - and fuel consumption will be significantly better than at 130 kph

Robert

 

[Lutz]

There is a research paper published by Bath University which shows that the critical speed for caravan outfits is generally in the region of 55-60mph. Although you may be lucky and you have a particularly well-balanced outfit that shows no signs of nervousness above that speed, the risk of instability increases disproportionately with speed.

As Rob_jax says, German insurance companies will reduce claims in the event of an accident if it can be proved that the outfit was going in excess of 100km/h (60mph) even if the driver of the towcar was not to blame.

 

[Cockovan]

Hi,

Since we've heard a lot from the German side of things I include an extract from what the CC say about tryes abroad.

"As a general rule, if your vehicle meets the legal requirements for use in the UK, then it can be used across Europe without difficulty. An exception to this is the situation relating to tyres in France. Since on certain French motorways it is permissible to tow at up to 81mph (130kph), the French require that your tyres meet this requirement. This is only likely to be a concern with older caravans, but if in any doubt, check the specification of your tyres before travelling, since on-the-spot fines can be significant."

Which if their interpretation of French Law is correct would also apply to any visitor!

 

[Angus1]

To answer the original question, I would say yes!

However, when you put in the variables of poorly matched outfits, lack of maintainance on some outfits, incompetant drivers (generally, not just `vanners) then there is probably grounds for saying 40 is too fast.

The speed limit thing is of little consequence. I can`t remember seeing a caravan on its side in France, neither do I think my car doing a hundred plus is unsafe(its what is around it that causes the problems)and speed limits are arbitrary figures dreamt up by politicians with other agendas.

I`m not advocating speeding, merely making the point that just as 20 outside a school (in a 30 limit) is too fast, if you do 65 or 70 with a `van on the back you`re breaking the law, not necessarily being unsafe.

 

[Lutz]

Most countries on the Continent have lower speed limits than the UK. France and Belgium are exceptions. As I mentioned in my previous post, the researchers at Bath University found that the critical speed for caravans is around 55-60mph, so the speed limit is certainly not arbitrary.

 

[Angus1]

The fact that other contries have lower limits is pretty meaningless, unless you have evidence that these figures can be scientifically justified.

Also, on what basis was the Bath conclusion drawn and when?

You can`t suggest that every possibly configuration of car/caravan were tested under all possible conditions, and at all possible weight ratios. If not, it is a study which has drawn conclusions based upon the results available so not conclusive and therefore its findings can be questioned.

Also, I am not aware of any Government study of any car/caravan stability issues, and as they, not Bath auniversity, have chosen to set the limit, I will with justification use the word `arbitrary`.

 

[MikeP]

The answer to the original question "is it safe?" can only be "it depends". This forum cannot give a definitive answer, but it will provide a wealth of useful information.

In my opinion anyone who tows a caravan at the max in France simply because they can, and without considering their own and other road users' safety, is a fool.

Don't shoot me down ... it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it.

 

[rob_jax]

Hi Angus,

I think you need to look up the series of caravan reports by the School of Mechanical Engineering at Bath University, they were commissioned by at least one caravan manufacturer to perform authoratative reports on caravan stability and other physical properties of towing a caravan. They and their conclusions certianly aren't arbitrary.

A typical report used a series of instuemtned and data logged tow cars (of different kerbweights) and caravans (different shapes and MTPLM) to investigate the effect of a sudden steering input on caravan stabilty - with and without different stabilisers - and under a range of different nose-weights

Since these are from a school of mechanical engineering, these weren't written in layman's terms and you need to be able to follow a techincal, mathematical report - but the conculsions were pretty clear - allowing them to predict the zero stability speed for any combination of nose-weight, stabiliser action, etc.

And like my area of business (petroleum refining, motor vehicle fuels and control systems), the government test or regulatory bodies do not have the necessary level of expertise in every area - but will co-opt people from industry to provide the technical background to allow them to set standards.

And then looking at Germany, considerable efforts were spent on arriving at the Tempo 100 requirements for caravaning.

So yes, the UK motorway limit of 60 mph was set arbitrarily, but techncial evidence from T

 

[Lutz]

It may be pure coincidence that the speed limit in the UK is about the same as the findings of Bath University, but based on their conclusions, the speed limit seems very realistic to me.

Of course, not all configurations were tested under all conditions. Speed limits are (or should be) a reasonable compromise between ideal and worst case conditions. The ideal would be a well-balanced outfit driven by an experienced driver on a relatively straight road with little traffic and good weather conditions. Under such conditions, even 100mph could conceivably be considered safe. However, we all know that many outfits on the roads do not come close to the ideal so inevitably the speed limits have to be set lower.

 

[Angus1]

Basically, you`ve arrived at the same conclusion as me, albeit from a different angle.

I never advocated a higher limit, and as I said earlier, 60 is too high for some combinations on the road anyway.

I have towed at more than 60 and felt perfectly safe. I`ve also slowed to 40 when I have reason (terrain, traffic, wind etc) to feel less than 100% secure, only to be blitzed by someone with more confidence/less sense/bigger sqashy bits than me.

In ideal world there would be no need for ANY speed limits as commonsense and intelligence would prevail. But not on this planet.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi all.

after reading this tread so far I ask the question WHY??

seeing that the max speed limit on british roads is 60mph on unrestricted dual carrageways and 70mph on motorways which includes the outside or fast lane that trailers are not allowed in why would anyone want to tow a 20ft van at the same speed as the aston martin DB6 that as just overtaken you??in the outside lane.

OR am I missing something?

on a recent trip down to somerset 300 miles or so following our daughter who went solo with a tent in the boot and us towing the van the difference in arrival time was less than one hour thats about 10mph diference overall so why rush??

colin

 

[Angus1]

Colin,

"After reading this thread" thats the point - you didn`t!

Litespeeds original question was as it`s legal to do 65 or even 70+ in France is it safe,not if there`s any point in doing it, or even if there`s any benefit.

You`re answering a question (perhaps valid) that no-one asked.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi angus

so it was a hypothethical question then and not based on actual towing speeds attained by posters,I guess that was what I was missing?.

 

[Guest]

We have towed our caravans in France at 70mph and more at odd times. Of course we take into account the conditions and speed limits for downhill sections of the autoroutes that are often reduced.

You also have to take into account traffic and weather conditions as you would eleswhere.

A lot of places in France have wind socks to indicate wind speed and strength.

French Autoroutes are mainly dual carriageway and with a speed limit of around 81mph and with a lot of cars exceeding that it could be argued that tavelling at over 20 mphh less than many other vehicles travelling at the legal limit can compromise your safety at times.

With a good tow car and correctly loaded caravan 70mph where possible is our general motorway speed in France, fast moving cars also seem to have less effect when passing you when speeds are closer on the dual carriageways

We find it safe, but it is not a target and if traffic or weather gives us any doubts we are at 60mph or less.

We came in on a ferry yesterday having left the caravan in France, a few UK caravanners on the M2O heading home from Dover seemed to think that 65 - 70mph was safe ;-)

If the the speed limit for caravanners was not considerd safe in France, surely the French would reduce it as they do on downhill sections or where there are high cross winds! Euro

 

[Angus1]

Colin,

I think that more or less it.

Yes, I`ve towed at 70+ but I wouldn`t say it was a safe speed for towing. I, personally, felt it safe at that particular point(s) given all prevailing factors, but there are so many variables to throw into the equation I couldn`t make a categoric statement which covers everyone else and their outfits and abilities.

If someone wishes to go slower, or faster, than me thats their choice and as along as it doesn`t endanger me, my family or any innocent party I`ll leave them to arrive at their own decision.

As mentioned elsewhere, perhaps a contributory factor in higher French limits is having decent roads which aren`t a hazard in themselves (that most of the U.K network out then) and the use of windsocks and signs targetted at towing vehicles.

 

[rob_jax]

Hi,

The Dutch motorway network is probably the best in Europe, with 2,3,4 or 5 lane carriageways in pretty much perfect condition, excellent overhead signage with fully automated traffic problem reporting from under road sensors and road side computers. It also helps that they have a very flat country, so no issues with hills, a very savvy, caravan aware driving population (25% of homes have caravans), and a caravan-towing speed limit of ... 80 kph (50 mph)

Robert

 

[Angus1]

Just to add to Roberts observation, do not some American states still have a blanket 55MPH limit?

I know their home-built cars tend to be borderline primitive, but to suggest that 55 is anything but a politically imposed limit when you can drive for miles on arrow-straight roads without seeing another vehicle, house or junction is absurd.

The Dutch limit is more likely to be set so low as it`s far easier to get off your head on `puff` over there and it limits the damage you can do. I know that may be flippant, but to my mind the suggestion that a well matched and maintained outfit should not, whatever the circumstances exceed 50mph, is as daft as a 70mph limit for British motorways 24/7 for solo cars, and the ludicrous suggestion that the plethora of speed cameras make us all safer than when we actually had police cars on the roads to target the real cause of accidents be it solo,towing or whatever - BAD DRIVING.

 

[Guest]

Only here on a 2 day visit we've left our caravan near Le Touquet.

As is the usual case heading north in France we were overtaken by faster moving Dutch and German caravanners. When we get back to our caravan tomorrow I can more or less guarantee that most of the faster moving caravans will be from the same two countries as has been our experience for many years and as we find around our home area in France as the Dutch and Germans head to the Med

As regular visitors to Holland I agree with Rob on the road standards, the caravan towing speed limit though to us is a menace there on motorways as was the 50mph limit here years ago and Holland has a higher motorway speed limit for cars than the UK.

We may have been unfortunate but have seen some of the worst car accidents in Holland and suffered some really bad delays and seen very poor driving standards in the snow.

I'm with Angus, if you are happy let others get on with it. But slow moving caravans and high speed cars are not always a good mix, making good quickish progress if the conditions permit is the best rule for us.

Enjoy your summer caravanning trips.

Bonne route et bonne chance. Au revoir, Euro.

 

[rob_jax]

Hi Euro,

Whilst the national speed limit is 120 kph in Holland, large sections of the network are restricted to 100 kph or (around Rotterdam and other cities) to 80 kph.

Wacky baccy Dutch drivers are not an issue - there's pretty intensive road side testing for both alcohol and drug impairment - including closing sections of roads and motorways (at night) and analysing everyone trapped.

And the reason the Dutch drive through France so quickly is they only have 25 kg of potatoes in the caravan, and consequently they need to get to their destination before the supply runs out. Sorry, that's a cruel characterisation in the same way that Brits always take bacon, sliced white loaf and PG-Tips with them.

Robert (working in Rotterdam this week)

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi all.

in the 1970s when the speed limits were introduced because of the oil shortage the boffins and road safty campainers yes they had them in those days noticed a dramatic reduction in road deaths and accidents that came with lower speeds so when the oil crisis was over the speed limits stayed.

should the limits be raised well probably considering the improvements in modern car technoligy and safty improvements baring in mind that when the limit was set few cars could maintain high speed (the car I was driving at that time a austin A35 did only 50mph balls out downhill with the wind behind it),so 70mph seemed reasonable however succesive goverments from that time cut down on road mantainance in favor of building new ones instead of upgrading the old ones with the result that the speed limits became perminantly nessesary.

will this alter I doubt it in my lifetime the question may be is it safe to tow above 60mph??that is for others to answer for me I am quite happy to keep the speed down and watch out for the pot holes

colin

 

[Guest]

We visit near Venlo and Helmond Rob and know our way around Holland quite well.

Our Dutch friends locals serve Leffe, I thought the Dutch were all racing to E Leclerc to corner the limited supplies on the shelves ;-)

We have been stopped in Holland. All clean ;-) Euro

 

[Guest]

Sorry, to leave on this note.

But I think you have your facts a little mixed up Colin.

My memory is that Truck speed limits have remained with limiters since that time in the 70's but the reduced speeds for other road users were returned to normal and since then towing speeds increased to 60 mph for caravanners on the motorways and dual carriageways.

The Oil crisis speed limits I undersatnd were considered virtualy un-enforcable at the time and most people ignored them. I returned to the UK for a few months at the time they were in place and was unaware of them and saw little to show that there were lower limits!

On many UK single carrriageway roads 50mph is considered to cause more problems than it solves and I note many caravanners here show that in the speed they drive at.

If you are driving pot holed roads you adjust your speeds as you should on tight twisty roads or in heavy traffic or bad weather conditions.

I have no doubt that it is very safe to travel at 70 mph towing a caravan and faster if the conditions and outfit are good.

I'm happy for others to travel at their chosen speed providing they do not hinder or endanger others and others should leave I and others to travel at the safe speeds we have chosen for very many years.

A few caravanners would do well to take note of the following article that was passed to my son in-law and take note on recent findings.

Type of tow car and speed choice are also an important issue.

I drive a 4 x 4 before anyone gets excited!

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200wales/tm_headline=experts-warn-of-dangers---of--towing-caravans-with-4x4s&method=full&objectid=19391547&siteid=50082-name_page.html