A friend of mine noted with glee that I have acquired a three litre diesel 4x4 weighing 2,200 kilos. Now he has asked me if I could do him a favour and transport to the coast his boat on a trailer weighing 3.5 tons in all. The car handbook says the car's maximum braked towing weight is 3,800 kilos, so it would be legal but I have never towed with more than an 85% ratio before. The prospect terrifies me as the implications of anything going wrong are too awful to contemplate, and the towball is a detachable fitting which I fear could be a weaker link. Would you do it??
I've been asked to tow 3.5 tons - would you?
- Thread starter Colinn
- Start date
Short answer. No
If he can afford a boat he can afford a proper tow vehicle. This is not to say that your car is not capable, but you will be running it at max loads. This will leave little or no safety margin. At the end of the day it's down to you, but he's asking a huge favor, so if you do it make sure he knows you're owed one.
If he can afford a boat he can afford a proper tow vehicle. This is not to say that your car is not capable, but you will be running it at max loads. This will leave little or no safety margin. At the end of the day it's down to you, but he's asking a huge favor, so if you do it make sure he knows you're owed one.
You would probably be over the 100% ratio as even 4x4s do not generally weigh that much. My Fourtrack is designed to tow 3.5 tonnes but even with a full tank of fuel it does not weigh that much. Many modern cars have a manufacturer's towing weight limit higher than the weight of the car. Many of the Mondeo range are a typical example of this. You may be satisfying the manufacturer's limits but how you would stand regarding both the law and your insurance is a different question.
I know that this is within my Range Rover's technical capability - BUT "for short distances and at not more than 20mph".
So, a couple of miles (without significant hills), yes, otherwise no!
This sort of capability was originally for military and agricultural use, so that heavy non road-legal equipment could be shifted from one field to another.
So, a couple of miles (without significant hills), yes, otherwise no!
This sort of capability was originally for military and agricultural use, so that heavy non road-legal equipment could be shifted from one field to another.
Colinn, you say your car has a maximum braked towing weight of 3800kg. Are you sure? 3500kg is the legal limit for any trailer without a service brake. I wouldn't worry too much about the detachable towbar. Because they have to cope with towing at maximum limit on the roughest of roads too, there will be ample margin of safety.
Otherwise, I'd go along with Oldfogey's advice. Perhaps 20mph is a bit low but, with due care, 40mph should still be quite safe if you are within the technical limits of the towcar.
Otherwise, I'd go along with Oldfogey's advice. Perhaps 20mph is a bit low but, with due care, 40mph should still be quite safe if you are within the technical limits of the towcar.
I once owned a sportsboat weighing in at 1600 kilos, it was ok behind our Sharan or my Ducato van up to 70 mph but it was a nightmare behind my friends Discovery, hit 60 and the snaking started, Oldfogey is right about the max towing limit on 4x4's applying to low speeds and short distances, I would happily tow at 100% in most vehicles but NOT in a 4x4. Their weight and traction are the only towing qualities a 4x4 has, everything else about their design goes against them for towing. Don't do it!.
Hi Colinn.
First of all check for certain with your franchise dealership that your 4x4 can actually tow a 3500kg trailer. I have towed for a number of years on a daily basis such weight in a goods trailer behind Diahatsu F70's which are the short wheel base 2.8Ltr 4x4.
A 3500Kg rated tow ball is essential and this usually takes the form of a drop pin and ball coupling, as a standard 50mm ball is rated to 2000Kgs if my memory serves me right. (www.towsure.co.uk)will show you a picture of one.
I have towed several yachts before and so long as the trailer is in good mechanical condition and has all wheel breaking an over run type braked trailer should be fine. Don't forget the old favorite of dunking the trailer in salt water ot launch the boat. Water ingress to wheel bearings realy knackers them in no time.
I agree with the others that caution IS the watch word, and if your 4x4 is able do do so I'd drive in four wheel drive while loaded. My Diahatsu's had selectable front hubs as when the four wheel drive was engaged the front axle diff became locked which meant that prolonged use on tarmac buggered up the front wheel bearings at
First of all check for certain with your franchise dealership that your 4x4 can actually tow a 3500kg trailer. I have towed for a number of years on a daily basis such weight in a goods trailer behind Diahatsu F70's which are the short wheel base 2.8Ltr 4x4.
A 3500Kg rated tow ball is essential and this usually takes the form of a drop pin and ball coupling, as a standard 50mm ball is rated to 2000Kgs if my memory serves me right. (www.towsure.co.uk)will show you a picture of one.
I have towed several yachts before and so long as the trailer is in good mechanical condition and has all wheel breaking an over run type braked trailer should be fine. Don't forget the old favorite of dunking the trailer in salt water ot launch the boat. Water ingress to wheel bearings realy knackers them in no time.
I agree with the others that caution IS the watch word, and if your 4x4 is able do do so I'd drive in four wheel drive while loaded. My Diahatsu's had selectable front hubs as when the four wheel drive was engaged the front axle diff became locked which meant that prolonged use on tarmac buggered up the front wheel bearings at
Thank you all very much for your good advice, especially Steve who has gone to so much trouble to advise...
I didn't want to be churlish by refusing this request, but i am happier to say no now because you have given me some well founded reasoning for doing so.
Thanks, I won't be doing it!
I didn't want to be churlish by refusing this request, but i am happier to say no now because you have given me some well founded reasoning for doing so.
Thanks, I won't be doing it!
Lutz, you are right as usual. Figure should have read 3500k - which I believe equates to 3.8 tons - hence my error. Still a huge towing weight in my book!! Thanks for reassurance on detachable towball as well, I'm glad to hear that even for my caravan (1600k)
For Colin (Bridgend)
Re your comment on 14 Mar 2007 11:13 PM,
Provided the mass of the trailer is within the manufactures limits, and the driver has B+E categories on their licence, the law is satisfied.
The insurance company would have to advise in writing if they were unhappy at the combination as it falls within the legal limits.
Re your comment on 14 Mar 2007 11:13 PM,
Provided the mass of the trailer is within the manufactures limits, and the driver has B+E categories on their licence, the law is satisfied.
The insurance company would have to advise in writing if they were unhappy at the combination as it falls within the legal limits.
Gary I think you are being too general in the statement that 4x4s are poor at towing at 100% weight ratio. I have a friend who towed a twin axle caravan all over Europe with a Daihatsu Fourtrack. He part exchanged it for a Discovery and after a short tow to Pembroke from Neath he came home and had his Fourtrack back. He reckoned the caravan was snaking badly behind the Discovery, something which rarely occurred with the Daihatsu. On his recommendation I bought a Fourtrack and it is a marvellous tow car with my caravan.
In fairness, Colin, it may not necessarily have been the Fourtrak vs. the Discovery but the different tyre equipment that they had. The softer the sidewalls (as is often the case with 4x4's), the more likely the car will feel unsteady.
Point taken, The Disco is regarded as being about the best 4x4 offroad Is the rule of thumb if you want to tow with a 4x4 to choose one that is rubbish offroad?
gary
Absolute load of rubbish. a cars ability on or off road will not change the fact that it can tow well or not. 4x4's have better towing capabilities than many road going cars.
I have towed with both and the 4x4 is far better all round. the extra weight, drive, stability is just a no brainer.
Absolute load of rubbish. a cars ability on or off road will not change the fact that it can tow well or not. 4x4's have better towing capabilities than many road going cars.
I have towed with both and the 4x4 is far better all round. the extra weight, drive, stability is just a no brainer.
As you can tell by my thread above I have many years of "practical" experience of towing some of the most bizar loads that can be towed with a PLG taxation class vehicle.
The most benificial asset of a 4x4 is the transfer box. With a hi-lo ratio available you now have 10 forward and 2 reverse gears to chose from. Then couple that to all wheel drive as I prefer to call it and you have the most "tractile" vehicle possible available to the "motorist".
Now before we all start swinging handbags at twenty paces about who has the best, I'll say one thing.
Having driven Disco's, Diahatsu's, Cherokee's, series 2 Landies and even an Austin Champ. I have to say that with it's Rolls Royce 4 Litre engine the Champ is the power daddy, but at 4Mpg petrol it cost's a fortune to run. Being a milatary vehicle field performance was the criteria.
Realy the best compromise between field and road is the farmers favorites of Landrover SWB and Diahatsu fourtrak.
I'm sorry to say that the Disco is all show and no go until the difflocks are added and the floppy suspension sorted out.
Great pitty no one has invented a splitter box for a car, then we could have the best of both worlds in a comfy motorway cruiser in the week and a tow tug to pull the side out of a house at the weekend.
In the mean time I'll potter on with my trusty Laguna towing at 100% capacity.
Steve.
The most benificial asset of a 4x4 is the transfer box. With a hi-lo ratio available you now have 10 forward and 2 reverse gears to chose from. Then couple that to all wheel drive as I prefer to call it and you have the most "tractile" vehicle possible available to the "motorist".
Now before we all start swinging handbags at twenty paces about who has the best, I'll say one thing.
Having driven Disco's, Diahatsu's, Cherokee's, series 2 Landies and even an Austin Champ. I have to say that with it's Rolls Royce 4 Litre engine the Champ is the power daddy, but at 4Mpg petrol it cost's a fortune to run. Being a milatary vehicle field performance was the criteria.
Realy the best compromise between field and road is the farmers favorites of Landrover SWB and Diahatsu fourtrak.
I'm sorry to say that the Disco is all show and no go until the difflocks are added and the floppy suspension sorted out.
Great pitty no one has invented a splitter box for a car, then we could have the best of both worlds in a comfy motorway cruiser in the week and a tow tug to pull the side out of a house at the weekend.
In the mean time I'll potter on with my trusty Laguna towing at 100% capacity.
Steve.
As you can tell by my thread above I have many years of "practical" experience of towing some of the most bizar loads that can be towed with a PLG taxation class vehicle.
The most benificial asset of a 4x4 is the transfer box. With a hi-lo ratio available you now have 10 forward and 2 reverse gears to chose from. Then couple that to all wheel drive as I prefer to call it and you have the most "tractile" vehicle possible available to the "motorist".
Now before we all start swinging handbags at twenty paces about who has the best, I'll say one thing.
Having driven Disco's, Diahatsu's, Cherokee's, series 2 Landies and even an Austin Champ. I have to say that with it's Rolls Royce 4 Litre engine the Champ is the power daddy, but at 4Mpg petrol it cost's a fortune to run. Being a milatary vehicle field performance was the criteria.
Realy the best compromise between field and road is the farmers favorites of Landrover SWB and Diahatsu fourtrak.
I'm sorry to say that the Disco is all show and no go until the difflocks are added and the floppy suspension sorted out.
Great pitty no one has invented a splitter box for a car, then we could have the best of both worlds in a comfy motorway cruiser in the week and a tow tug to pull the side out of a house at the weekend.
In the mean time I'll potter on with my trusty Laguna towing at 100% capacity.
Steve.
The most benificial asset of a 4x4 is the transfer box. With a hi-lo ratio available you now have 10 forward and 2 reverse gears to chose from. Then couple that to all wheel drive as I prefer to call it and you have the most "tractile" vehicle possible available to the "motorist".
Now before we all start swinging handbags at twenty paces about who has the best, I'll say one thing.
Having driven Disco's, Diahatsu's, Cherokee's, series 2 Landies and even an Austin Champ. I have to say that with it's Rolls Royce 4 Litre engine the Champ is the power daddy, but at 4Mpg petrol it cost's a fortune to run. Being a milatary vehicle field performance was the criteria.
Realy the best compromise between field and road is the farmers favorites of Landrover SWB and Diahatsu fourtrak.
I'm sorry to say that the Disco is all show and no go until the difflocks are added and the floppy suspension sorted out.
Great pitty no one has invented a splitter box for a car, then we could have the best of both worlds in a comfy motorway cruiser in the week and a tow tug to pull the side out of a house at the weekend.
In the mean time I'll potter on with my trusty Laguna towing at 100% capacity.
Steve.
What I was trying to get over was that tyres with very soft sidewalls are detrimental to stability. That has nothing to do with off-road ability of a 4x4 in normal use. Only in extreme cases not normally encountered by the average driver, such as very rocky conditions or very soft ground, are soft sidewalls useful. Ideally, for towing on good roads, one should have large wheels with low profiles tyres and that applies to any car, whether 4x4 or not. If you frequently go off road into really rough stuff, you'll have to make a compromise regarding tyre equipment.
Colinn - What sort of friend would ask you to undertake such a task?
He would need a 3.5 tonne truck to pull it safely. Say "No!" and be done with it. If he really is a friend he will surely understand.
He would need a 3.5 tonne truck to pull it safely. Say "No!" and be done with it. If he really is a friend he will surely understand.
Colin, I have towed outrageous loads in the past with all kinds of vehicles and I personally wouldn't have a problem towing 3.5t. If, however, you are not entirely confident with the prospect don't do it. On a different note I think your "friend" is taking liberties, and perhaps he should have considered how he was going to transport his boat before now.
Mr Mcghee, your comment intrigues me. You say you wouldn't have a problem towing 3.5 tons, which implies it's no big deal if you're capable and careful. My own reservation is based mainly on the weight imbalance, not my ability as a driver. I consider myself as competent and careful as the next man in terms of towing capability. So I wonder what extra experience/qualities I need (that you obviously have) to do this safely...?? And I wonder how you would approach the task and what special skills you would call upon to stay safe en route??
By imbalance I presume you are referring to the considerably heavier trailer relative to the weight of the towcar. Of course this makes it more susceptible to instability so you would have to be able to react immediately at the first sign of any 'nervousness' of the outfit and ease off the accelerator right away. The most important thing when towing at such an unfavourable weight relationship is to be even more vigilant than normal and take heed of the slightest sign of unease that you may feel through the 'seat of your pants'.
Hello Ann,
Motor manufacturers test and establish what the maximum allowable mass (MAM) of the vehicle can be. That in turn defines what he maximum mass of trailer can be. It is not a secret and it is quite easy to find out what most vehicles are technically able to tow.
There is a lot misinformed comment about percentage mass that can be towed, and two figures keep coming up, 85% and 100%.
The 85% is an arbitrary figure and is purely a suggested guideline put about by parts of the caravan industry. It is in my view a sensible target, but it is not enshrined in any law.
100% is part of the current driving licence restrictions, it too is an arbitrary figure but and has no other bearing on the technical capability of any vehicle. It is used because it is easy for the authorities to check against the vehicle data plates on roadside checks.
You must consider that virtually all articulated lorries tow at well over 100% sometimes as much as 500%, but that is well within their capabilities because of the mechanical arrangements of the tow hitch (5th wheel) and the way the weight is transferred from the load to the tug.
Provided the vehicle is rated to tow the desired load, and both the vehicle and trailer are in full working order, then the limiting factor is the driver - who must be sensible about loading, choosing the best route, and as ever choosing to travel at a speed that will enable full control to be maintained.
If I had a large load to move, and I knew of a friend who had a suitable vehicle then I would be happy to ask, but I would also accept a refusal if they were not confident about the task.
Motor manufacturers test and establish what the maximum allowable mass (MAM) of the vehicle can be. That in turn defines what he maximum mass of trailer can be. It is not a secret and it is quite easy to find out what most vehicles are technically able to tow.
There is a lot misinformed comment about percentage mass that can be towed, and two figures keep coming up, 85% and 100%.
The 85% is an arbitrary figure and is purely a suggested guideline put about by parts of the caravan industry. It is in my view a sensible target, but it is not enshrined in any law.
100% is part of the current driving licence restrictions, it too is an arbitrary figure but and has no other bearing on the technical capability of any vehicle. It is used because it is easy for the authorities to check against the vehicle data plates on roadside checks.
You must consider that virtually all articulated lorries tow at well over 100% sometimes as much as 500%, but that is well within their capabilities because of the mechanical arrangements of the tow hitch (5th wheel) and the way the weight is transferred from the load to the tug.
Provided the vehicle is rated to tow the desired load, and both the vehicle and trailer are in full working order, then the limiting factor is the driver - who must be sensible about loading, choosing the best route, and as ever choosing to travel at a speed that will enable full control to be maintained.
If I had a large load to move, and I knew of a friend who had a suitable vehicle then I would be happy to ask, but I would also accept a refusal if they were not confident about the task.
On your first point, Lutz, the answer is yes, with all the consequent potential hazards it may present...The other signs of danger I hope I cd recognise (relying in some small measure on 40 years of clean-licence driving, including plenty of trouble-free towing miles).
It is precisely because I am a careful driver that I posed this question in the first place, as I am not one for taking ill-advised risks...Thanks for your advice.
Hi Colinn. Please do not misinterpret my comments. I am not questioning your ability as a driver. My willingness to tow 3 tonnes or more comes from years of towing such loads the length of Britain and back again with various vehicles. I can't tell you what you need to do to stay safe because I can't predict the future unfortunately. I can only say that I've had a few scary moments and learned from each of them to the point where, as Lutz says, reactions to the slightest twitch are instinctive. I'll repeat: If you don't feel confident with the safety aspects don't do it.
quite right dont do it
I once got roped into recovering a 3litre ford granada with my VW LT35 motor home
sure it weighed over 3ton and the granny's only 2ton BUT add the weight of a 20ft car transporter trailer @ 800kg and a tank of fuel and so on,
it was legal and within the cababilities of the van but was a nightmare I had to take a 40mile detour to aviod a rather large hill on the way.
its something I wouldn't do again at any price and I definitly would not recommend it
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