Jump in electric costs

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Jul 18, 2017
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I understand the legal requirement for retailing, and accept that the equipment requires annual certification just as the existing electrical stuff. I dont think monitors and the tecky at the pitch cost much though. The installation cost can be accounted for and amortised to the pitch fee - perfectly legit. Some sites have already done this of coarse.
There is no need for there to be surplus charge at the point of sale as its just like a fuel filling station where you use your card first and then pay for what you use.
Cost mount when the technician is charging per hour and for every meter that they re-certify. Of course there is no obligation on the site owner to ever have re-certification done as the meters belong to them.
I have never heard of any meter for electrical installation where you put in your card at the beginning like for a fuel pump, remove it and then and are charged at the end of your visit.
I don't think that will go down too well as after a couple of days and while packing up to leave, you forget to trip the switch to end your consumption so next person gets free electric. Also the danger that while you are out and about someone else could plug into your supply and it will happen.
Just surmising some scenarios having done installations for some campsites.
 
Jan 3, 2012
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I agree but the cost of installing the sub metering and associated hassles with monitoring usage make it easier just to increase the overall price of using the pitch.


Unfortunately you will be in for a shock as price per unit will increase substantially whether or not you use comparison sites.
People have opinions but at the end of the day it my choice :)
 
Jun 16, 2020
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They will be sub meters privately installed by the owner so they need to recoup those costs. You will only have one main meter for the site that is installed by the Meter Operator for that area.
Owners are not allowed to profit from resale of electric and have to charge you exactly the same as they pay per unit. Meters should be checked at least once a year to make sure that they are accurate and this has to be done by a private company. If a sub meter goes faulty, then it is a cost to the owner.
They cannot charge a standing fee per meter as they only pay one standing fee for the main meter that supplies the whole site. If at end of stay you have £2 left on the pre-payment meter you can legally request that they pay back the £2 and they have to refund you.
As I said it is a lot of hassle installing sub metering per pitch and then having to maintain and monitor it!

I read about this a couple of years ago, some thought to sub metre would be illegal, others that it would be impractical and not financially viable.


However, it seems the obstacles are being overcome, and it will be an absolute necessity with the introduction of EV and hybrid vehicles. I was on a CS site a couple of weeks ago who had installed them. As it happens they were malfunctioning, but we came to an amicable compromise.

John
 

Ern

May 23, 2021
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It's quite common in Spain on long term pitches to have metered electric. The site fee for <30 days is higher and includes an allowance of kWh per day, then metered rates apply. Electricity is paid for on departure along with ite fees. On long term pitches there is no electric allowance but ste fees are lower. Things are different in Spain I know.
As electricity becomes more expensive in the UK we must accept that you are not always going to get it without a recognisable charge. The legislation against retailing at a profit was introduced in the UK to stop dodgy landlords letting rooms to poor people and ripping them off, and the big caravan clubs decided to deal with it the easy way by accounting for the electric cost in their the pitch overheads, and we all pay for it that way. Pitch costs will rise and the clubs will blame electricity charges, as they are already doing.
 
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Jun 20, 2005
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Smart meters bring absolutely no benefit to the end user. Who or where does it say they will be mandatory? A con from the suppliers to suck you in and make it hard to swap. So what is the benefit please 😜😜😜😜
 
Jul 23, 2021
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Smart meters bring absolutely no benefit to the end user. Who or where does it say they will be mandatory? A con from the suppliers to suck you in and make it hard to swap. So what is the benefit please 😜😜😜😜
The MASSIVE benefit to me is 30min billing meaning I pay 5p from 00:30 to 04:30 and 13p for the rest of the day. That is huge.
 
Jun 16, 2020
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The MASSIVE benefit to me is 30min billing meaning I pay 5p from 00:30 to 04:30 and 13p for the rest of the day. That is huge.

Isn’t that just economy 7? We have that without a smart meter.

I am not against having a smart meter. We will not doubt get one eventually. But the main benefit for me will be in not having to empty a cupboard to get to the meters once a month.

I also do not believe that they are mandatory.

John
 

Ern

May 23, 2021
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Smart meters bring absolutely no benefit to the end user. Who or where does it say they will be mandatory? A con from the suppliers to suck you in and make it hard to swap. So what is the benefit please 😜😜😜😜
The benefit will not be possible until a much higher proportion of all have them. Then the benefit for the individual will be that you will participate in smart pricing.
Discounted price per kWh when the National Grid want to offload.
Of coarse you can always refuse to participate and remain on default tariff 25/7. The national benefit is that we reduce peak demand and lower our maximum energy generation.
 
Jul 23, 2021
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Isn’t that just economy 7? We have that without a smart meter.

I am not against having a smart meter. We will not doubt get one eventually. But the main benefit for me will be in not having to empty a cupboard to get to the meters once a month.

I also do not believe that they are mandatory.

John
Yes and no. I was on economy 7 before, but the rate was 8p 16p, as opposed to 5p 13p. I can consume up to 43kWh a night charging my EV and PHEV. Thats a saving of £200 to £400 a year depending on how much I drive.
 
Jul 23, 2021
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The benefit will not be possible until a much higher proportion of all have them. Then the benefit for the individual will be that you will participate in smart pricing.
Discounted price per kWh when the National Grid want to offload.
Of coarse you can always refuse to participate and remain on default tariff 25/7. The national benefit is that we reduce peak demand and lower our maximum energy generation.
That option is already available with changing 30 min pricing set at the wholesale rate (look up Octopus Agile and Octopus Agile export). On occasions, the price drops to negative (when there is too much generation), typically over night if it is very windy and you get paid to use electricity. If you have lots of solar and a large battery system in place, you can in theory buy cheap electricity in low periods and sell it back to the grid in peak periods for a profit. I want to be able to use V2G or V2H for exaclty that, when CCS or type 2 connecters suppory it in my car.
 

Ern

May 23, 2021
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That option is already available with changing 30 min pricing set at the wholesale rate (look up Octopus Agile and Octopus Agile export). On occasions, the price drops to negative (when there is too much generation), typically over night if it is very windy and you get paid to use electricity. If you have lots of solar and a large battery system in place, you can in theory buy cheap electricity in low periods and sell it back to the grid in peak periods for a profit. I want to be able to use V2G or V2H for exaclty that, when CCS or type 2 connecters suppory it in my car.
Quite.
I am looking forward to enjoying the facility of reduced tariff. Hopefully our supplier SSE will not be too long.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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That option is already available with changing 30 min pricing set at the wholesale rate (look up Octopus Agile and Octopus Agile export). On occasions, the price drops to negative (when there is too much generation), typically over night if it is very windy and you get paid to use electricity. If you have lots of solar and a large battery system in place, you can in theory buy cheap electricity in low periods and sell it back to the grid in peak periods for a profit. I want to be able to use V2G or V2H for exaclty that, when CCS or type 2 connecters suppory it in my car.
What’s V2G and V2H please?
 
Mar 14, 2005
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On the whole I do think smart meters are the way to go, i'm fed up of having my
my consumption over estimated , and the company are very reluctant to reimburse the difference.

BUT; The old disk meters are good for one reason, and that is how they handle "Power Factor".

For non electricians you may not know that any appliance that has an inductive or a reactive component it will change the way it consumes the mains electricity.
1629403652102.png

There is a difference between the apparent power and the real power it consumes. and its all to do with phase angle difference between the Voltage and the current.

The old style wheel meters respond to rela power - so you pay for what you genuinely use, but the smart meters can be switched to work on real power or to apparent power. Presently the legislation says they have to be switched to real power which is good, but when teh retail price regulations for electricity are reviewed, the generating companies will almostcertainly be pressing to switch to apparent power.

Does it make a difference? - yes it can. Items like kettles and most forms of resistive electric heating will be fine and will have a Power Factor (PF) of 1 , but items where there is inductance or reactance components close to the input can exhibit significant phase differences resulting in low PF values which are less efficient.

Filament bulbs are pure resistive loads and have PF of 1, but most LED lamps will have integral current limiting circuit which will be a capacitive dropper, and many have a PF of only 0.5. Despite this low PF, they are still way more efficient at producing light than filament bulbs.

Virtually every electronic device you purchase these days will have a power supply device either as a "wall wart" or built into them, for smaller items they are usually capacitive droppers of for bigger items they are Switch Mode Power Supplies. Both these methods exhibit poor power factors, and we are getting more of them all the time.

Contentious manufacturers can fit components to correct the PF, but it will make the product a little more expensive, but it would also keep your measured consumption as low as possible.

Phone and other USB chargers cordless vacuum cleaners, TV's chargers and of course ever more powerful computer systems. Most of us will have something approaching a 500W or more of non resistive power supplies.

If the power industry does switch to Apparent power costing, many of us could see our bills increase.

Be warned, There are scam merchants already out there trying to sell plugin systems with claims they will reduce your electricity bill. These often have no working parts. Other have made an attempt, but until you know what your PF actually is you won't know what values these components should be, and of course your use of appliances is continually changing so unless they are smart (which they are not) they could actually be making the situation worse rather than better.

PF correction is best applied at the device that using the current.
 
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Jun 20, 2005
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Good script Prof.
Looking at various articles and indeed pop ups selling “save electricity bill” devices I see the scam factor.
This article also help give me a better understanding. Teaching Old dogs new tricks🤪🤪🤪
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Good script Prof.
Looking at various articles and indeed pop ups selling “save electricity bill” devices I see the scam factor.
This article also help give me a better understanding. Teaching Old dogs new tricks🤪🤪🤪
The artic al confirms my own posting, even though its from the USA and from 2007. The same principles apply, though the situation has changed slightly. I emphasise that an increasing number of home products now use capacitive droppers or switch mode power supplies, which means we will be increasingly loading the grid with more devices with poor PF's. so any change to the apparent power measuring will have a proportionately bigger impact on or electricity charges.

It's just something to be aware of.
 
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