Land rover Defender

[joeby]

I thought this may be of interest to some readers ,this is part of an article in Vanuser trade mag ,

The Defender name was introduced in 1990 ,but the model is a direct descendant of the original Land Rover introduced in 1948 production of Defender and its predecessors has passed 1.8 million and it is claimed more than two thirds of them are still in use

 

[CliveV]

Hi Joby

Have a look at this:-

http://www.tanygraig.force9.co.uk/John/vlr/form2.htm#bottom

 

[Lutz]

Nice one, Clive

 

[CliveV]

The Series driving simulation is especially good - don't you think!

 

[RogerL]

Solihull has built Land-Rovers for the military, British and others throughout it's existence. These military versions are significantly different in specification to civilian versions. These differences reflect the operational conditions and the higher level of maintenance available, at least in peace-time.

The Defender name was chosen to re-inforce links to the military Land-Rovers because of the poor reliability reputation of civilian Land-Rovers.

My mate has a Series 2 - he's replaced the chassis, axles, transmission, engine, electrics and bodywork - some more than once. Nothing lasts, hence the poor reputation for reliability.

 

[CliveV]

Hi Roger

I agree that some old LR products are a bit like "Triggers Broom" (from Only Fools & Horses) now. But what else can you expect from a Series 2 !!!

How old is that vehicle?

Not many Ford Cortina's , Hillman Avengers, Morris Marina's af the same age still about - but loads of Series vehicles.

As for reliability - in their day they were as reliable as anything else available - and certainly more easily fixable as they were designed by someone who liked Meccano.

Reliability problems there were most certainly - but in my view these came later when there was no money for proper development in comparrison to what the other far bigger manufacturers achieved. So I do not think the name Defender was used to try and mask reliability problems - At least I have never come accross that story before and if you havn't already guessed it -I am a bit of an "anorak" on LR's.

Then of course came the Japanese - who took reliability to a whole new level leaving most UK products floundering.

When you consider the names that we no longer have (apart from badge engineering with some) - Singer, Hillman, Morris, Austin, Triumph, Riley etc etc (and on two wheels - Matchless, AJS, Velocette Norton etc etc.) - all these make failed - and are no more!

If you have ever tried to dive an original Mini home on a wet night with the Distributor (Ruddy Lucas!) getting drowned because they put it behind the grill so that the water could get at it more easily! - then you do not know how satisfying it was to open the Bonnet of a Land Rover to see the coil & Distributor up high out of the way.

Driving through a river is normal in a Land Rover. When the Series II was being produced - geting home in a Mini if it rained was virtualy impossible.

Yet Land Rover exists and is now going from strength to strength. Not saying there is not further room for improvement but certainly Ford has said it is delighted with LR's contribution to profit in this last quarter within its PAG.

New Freelander launched later this year.

Most likely that the current Defender production will go abroad where such a basic vehicle (but one that is still essentially "hand built") can still find a market, but a more modern version of the Defender (one that can be sold in the USA) built in the UK from the end of this decade.

 

[RogerL]

Hi Roger

I agree that some old LR products are a bit like "Triggers Broom" (from Only Fools & Horses) now. But what else can you expect from a Series 2 !!!

How old is that vehicle?

Not many Ford Cortina's , Hillman Avengers, Morris Marina's af the same age still about - but loads of Series vehicles.

As for reliability - in their day they were as reliable as anything else available - and certainly more easily fixable as they were designed by someone who liked Meccano.

Reliability problems there were most certainly - but in my view these came later when there was no money for proper development in comparrison to what the other far bigger manufacturers achieved. So I do not think the name Defender was used to try and mask reliability problems - At least I have never come accross that story before and if you havn't already guessed it -I am a bit of an "anorak" on LR's.

Then of course came the Japanese - who took reliability to a whole new level leaving most UK products floundering.

When you consider the names that we no longer have (apart from badge engineering with some) - Singer, Hillman, Morris, Austin, Triumph, Riley etc etc (and on two wheels - Matchless, AJS, Velocette Norton etc etc.) - all these make failed - and are no more!

If you have ever tried to dive an original Mini home on a wet night with the Distributor (Ruddy Lucas!) getting drowned because they put it behind the grill so that the water could get at it more easily! - then you do not know how satisfying it was to open the Bonnet of a Land Rover to see the coil & Distributor up high out of the way.

Driving through a river is normal in a Land Rover. When the Series II was being produced - geting home in a Mini if it rained was virtualy impossible.

Yet Land Rover exists and is now going from strength to strength. Not saying there is not further room for improvement but certainly Ford has said it is delighted with LR's contribution to profit in this last quarter within its PAG.

New Freelander launched later this year.

Most likely that the current Defender production will go abroad where such a basic vehicle (but one that is still essentially "hand built") can still find a market, but a more modern version of the Defender (one that can be sold in the USA) built in the UK from the end of this decade.

Isn't the new Freelander just a Ford-designed SUV built on a Ford chassis platform in an ex-Ford factory, with a L-R badge?

The current Discovery 3 has more in common with Ford and Peugeot than L-R.

The Range-Rover is a BMW engineered vehicle.

The only "real" L-R is the Defender. Given the value of land for housing it won't be long before Solihull closes.

 

[RogerL]

The new Freelander is a Ford-designed SUV based on a Ford chassis platform built in an ex-Ford factory.

The Discovery 3 has more in common with Ford, Jaguar and Peugeot than L-R.

The Range-Rover is BMW-engineered.

The only "real" L-R is the Defender. Given the very high value of housing land, it won't be long before Solihull closes. The Midlands will notice the economic effect of such a closure but no-one else will!

 

[CliveV]

Well you got a bit of it right!

Even the original Freelander was going to have the body built in Finland by Valmet but BMW said no - they will put enough money in the pot to allow the body to be built in the UK.

LR used Santana gearboxes as well as German and and American Autoboxes.

And as for that LR icon - the V8 engine - well its is actually a Buick designed motor.

So what is a true Land Rover?

Is a Triumph motorcycle today from the same heritage as the 1960's Daytona and Bonneville - Err! No it isn't.

Are the Jaguars of the same genus as the XJ12? - Err No - they are built on a Ford Scorpio platform with Ford engines.

Will the new Freelander be built at Lode Lane - No - because the platform is to be shared with Volvo who will be introducing their own 4x4 sharing a number of parts. The LR may well have some Volvo bits at well.

I personally cannot wait to see the new Freelander - I think it will be the first "mass market" Land Rover that will benefit from the Ford input - which has been TOTALLY positive as far as I can see.

I love Land Rovers but am not blind to their shortfall. Why is it that LR could never build a decent manual gearbox? Is it any wonder that the new Defenders will have Transit gearboxes - a gearbox that remains slick and "as new" after 250,000 miles. My RR gearbox rogerred its output shaft at 89,000 - which I thought was quite good!

Only good thing is that changing a gearbox can be done on your driveway on a weekend.

Try doing that on a Vauxhall Vectra! - Which you may have to if the clutch goes on the early ones! - read Honest Johns report on this appalling designed car.

In summary - should we be bothered that a new RR or LR3 or the new Freelander is not a "REAL" Land Rover?

Absolutely not! If I wanted to go back to those sorts of days of Minis' letting me down in the rain. Cars having no synchromesh on first gear and any Ford engine having to be rebuilt after 50K miles and the bodywork rusting away before your eyes I would hitch a lift in a TARDIS.

Things move on.

Just think of all those names I mentioned - Riley, Singer Hillman, Triumph etc. - they did NOT change and look what happened to them.

The only way a specialist manufacturer can survive today is to share expertise. If that means that we have commonality of parts within Fords PAG group then that is a good thing!

As for the factory being sold?

Well nothing is impossible

But to suggest that it means so little must be a slap in the face to all the workers and the companies that supply LR.

There was a call for us to boycott Peugeot as they are pulling out of the UK. They have my vote. If I were considering a new car - it would not be a Peugeot.

 

[GStockton]

Well said Clive V excellent and factual posting.

I think myself and you would get on well.

But heh ho lots of know alls on here!

Glenn

 

[DavidW1]

My experience of Landies is from use in Malaysia in the 60's on RAF service. I was on a Helicopter Squadron and we spent most of our time following the choppers from one jungle clearing to another. As to wether there was any difference from the civilian models, I think they were standard series 2's although some had 24 volt systems and one had been modified as a service platform with an overhead work surface and a power lead to start aircraft.

We towed 10 cwt trailers, some adapted as mobile tool kits and oil storage units and these made useful "anchors" during cornering at max speed on the local roads. The technique was to hang the trailer out into the rough at the side of the black top before the corner and with the landie flat out, about 60 mph, and still on the firm stuff just plough on through the corner - worked a treat even on mountain hairpins. I don't tow the van like that now I hasten to add.

As for reliability - don't remember one ever breaking down except one guy broke a rear half shaft after severe misuse of the clutch during towing sombody out of a ditch - we just used it in FWD for a month, it drove ok.

As for servicing, well if the tyres were flat we pumped them up a bit and if they ran hot we might check the radiator level and thet was it. MT at base gave them something whch passed for service when they saw them which wasn't often and we rekoned jungle mud and dust was good cameouflage - some had rice growing in the muck on the floors.

They were undoubtedly unbreakable and reliable but cured me of driving them forever - they were slow, incredibly uncomfotable; my mate's teeth loosened after a particularly long detachment and the dentist said it was down to the harsh ride and they drank too much. Mind you so did we but that was Anchor beer not petrol!

I can understand the LR addiction but am now cured.

 

[CliveV]

Hi David.

Really enjoyed your post.

Try this:-

http://www.tanygraig.force9.co.uk/John/vlr/form2.htm#bottom
The "simulation" at the end will have your teeth on the floor!

 

[CliveV]

Well said Clive V excellent and factual posting.

I think myself and you would get on well.

But heh ho lots of know alls on here!

Glenn

Ssshhhh! Glenn - I mentioned a 4x4 but I think I got away with it!

LOL!!!

 

[DavidW1]

That made me chuckle, took me back almost 40 years too that simulator, could almost smell the jungle and feel the sweat.

I'm glad to see that you Land Rover nuts don't take yourselves too seriously, pity some others on this forum can't do the same. Life is not a rehearsal, as the man said

 

[Pelyma1]

Anyone who says Disco 3 is not a real LR hasn't driven one. Off road there is nothing to compare in standard form. Even MTR shod snorkeled up Defenders struggle to keep up with a D3 on road rubber. I've beendriving them since launch and am on the second one, it has green laned and been to quarries like Tixover where it has humbled even tricked up real LRs.

The new Freelander was seen last night by a friend at a viewing at Gaydon. It is bigger, more powerful, more torquey (reputedly almost as much torque as the V8 D3), faster (0-60 in 9 s and 3 seconds slower than a Supercharged Range Rover Sport around the Nuremburgring)has terrain response and is more grown up. It should make a great towcar for those that don't want a car as big as Disco3.

As for the RR being a BMW, things have changed, they insisted on it being monocoque, but there are no BMW engines anymore, the wheezy TD6 being the last to go with the TDV8 in its place. It too now has terrain response.

It is a regular call that LRs are unreliable and it is true in the past there have been problems, but the latest LRs seem to be well built and are every bit a real LR, except in one area and that is mechanical simplicity.

 

[CliveV]

Well said that man!

We went on a Land Rover Experience day down in Devon - the electronic gizmos are very good.

It was interesting to see how the different vehicles (RR/LR3/Current Freelander dealt with the rollers. (Who else would have a section of the track where the wheels are on rollers!!) The viscous dif lock of the current Freelander just had to heat its oil up a bit for the other wheels to bite.

But the RR was impressive with the computer checking each wheel in turn then applying power to those that wouldn't slip.

More than capable? - Absolutely no doubt about it!

Are they LR vehicles for this century not the previous? - Most certainly.

Ford should be congratulated. Its ethos of the PAG where selected brands benefit from Fords expertise, but retain the brand identity is spot on.

As much as I love the old V8 - it had to be superseded by something - it was designed in the 1950's! The TD200 & TD300 were fine engines and the TD5 underrated. But the TDV6 is truly outstanding.

There will be a market for a more basic model and the Defender will fit that role.

The only certainty in life is change.