Legal Question Regarding Nose Weights

[John_374564913]

IF REPLYING PLEASE DO NOT GUESS AND ANSWER IF NOT KNOW PLEASE DO NOT REPLY.

from reading many posts on the forum it seems that it is very difficult for manufacturers to submit to offering a Ex-Works nose weight for caravans for one reason or another.

However one would imagine the lack of published nose weights could be for either legal or commercial reasons based on the following:

Lets imagine I buy a caravan and it has a nose weight of 85Kilos

My towing vehicle has a nose limit of 75Kilo the retailer is aware of the towing vehicle and the caravan which is obvious could I not go back to the retailer and claim under the sale of goods act that the caravan is (NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE)

As I cannot tow it safely

Where does this leave the retailer legally and where does it leave him with the manufacturer.

I am not surprised that caravan manufacturers do not issue Ex-Works nose weights as if they did then surely this would remove the responsibility away from the retailer and on to the shoulders of the customer as both retailer and manufacturer would simply say the customer should have checked the literature before purchasing and therefore cannot claim (fit for purpose)

The above is based on Logic and not factual by any stretch of the imagination but as all logic it is worth considering

John

 

[Chrisbee]

The dealer would be selling you a caravan which is perfectly fit for purpose providing he has told you the correct weights if asked.It's up to you how you use it and what you chose to tow it with.

 

[John_374564913]

Chrisbee

Having read all the comments on this forum I am confident that if you asked a thousand members I doubt if more than ten would tell you there dealer volunteered the nose weight thereby proving the point I was trying to make.

 

[RayS]

The noseweight of a caravan is not 'declared' since it depends on how the caravan is loaded by the owner and this is obviously outside the control of either manufacturer or dealer.

The only quasi-legal values are the car makers maximum weight on the ball limit and the caravan makers ( or more accurately the chassis makers) limits on the hitch. Usually except for 4x4s the former is usually lower than the latter. An ex-works noseweight would be of very little real value.

There is also the question of 'recommended' nose weight of the 'van relative to the 'kerb' weight of the tow car. Note I am deliberately using quote marks as there is - to my knowledge - no absolute legal structure for the generally accepted guide figure of about 85%. But this is not really the question you pose.

John, I sense there may be more behind your question than appears. If you could be more specific - bearing in mind the Forum rules, of course - I'm sure that advice will be forthcoming

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello John,

Your argument is not quite logical, because in all road vehicle matters, the Driver is responsible for the condition and road-worthiness of their vehicle /outfit.

There is no legal duty on a manufacturer/retailer to police the actions of a customer once they are in possession of a caravan.

It is the responsibility of the driver to ensure their vehicle is capable of towing the trailer. If the actual loadings cannot be established by other means, The driver must measure them to establish their true value, and thus if compliant or otherwise.

There is no legal duty for a dealer to prevent a foreseeable load mismatch, though morally they should advise the driver of their concerns. It is then up to the driver to decide if they want to take the advice or not.

It is widely known that caravans need to be trimmed for nose load, so it is an accepted custom and normal practice. The owner's manual for the caravan should explain that the nose load can be adjusted by repositioning the payload within the caravan. So this establishes that it can be adjusted and the method of achieving it. The driver should read the instructions before towing a caravan.

If there is no payload available to redistribute, then the driver must add ballast to achieve the correct nose load.

Any retailer has the right to refuse to serve a customer provided it does not contravene discrimination laws. A dealer could refuse to make a contract to sell a caravan, but once a contract is signed and all agreed terms met, they cannot withhold the goods.

Basically it is Buyer Beware, and the Driver is responsible for any road going outfit

 

[Lutz]

I concur with JohnL.

The original post says "the retailer is aware of the towing vehicle". How can this be true? The retailer did not sell you the towing vehicle together with the caravan and is in no way responsible for the towing vehicle.

 

[xtrailman]

John

Its your responsibly to check the caravan nose weight, and to add ballast in the correct places, before you tow the caravan.

It would be a mistake to take the word of a dealer re the ex works nose weight, and often they pretend or genuinely don't know the nose weight anyway.

 

[John_374564913]

Ray

first let me say there is no hidden motive for my question just a case of trying to clear the facts based on reading many comments made on forums.

This comes about because too often I read statements like you must ballast a caravan in order to achieve an acceptable nose weight.

However reading other related articles it seems apparent that this is not the case because it seems also possible to abuse the stability case by ballasting too much in order to achieve the correct nose weight but still not achieving a stable unit.

What I am trying to say is I think that many people place a question on a forum and the same answers come up why? because maybe this was the correct answer for them but it does not necessarily mean it is the correct answer for the person asking the original question .

Therefore all I am saying that people should be aware of taking for granted that when raising a question the answer they receive is not necessarily the correct one.

We should always air on the side of caution and although I think everybody is in agreement that it is not down to manufacturers or retailers to advise on matches or towing capability.

It would be nice to have some form of professional guidance particularly when it comes to stability.

As I am fairly confident that although ballast does resolve the problem of achieving acceptable nose weights it does not necessarily mean it will also achive stability for you

John

 

[xtrailman]

John

Your posts aren't making a lot of sense to me.

While i agree a declared ex works weight would be an advantage, for initially collecting the caravan from a dealer.

And also to access whether your car might struggle to obtain a nose weight with in the nose weight limit, even after loading.

Once you have possession of the caravan, you will typically fit a battery, gas cylinders, items into the front locker, tool kit, maybe a mover, all items that may never leave the van even for a service?

These will alter the nose weight yet again, so prompting another nose weight check.

Then finally when you load for your tour, all items don't always go into the same place, my wife always loads the caravan, my job is to set the nose weight, which usually requires items from the front locker into the car.

Yet again the nose weight requires checking.

If you require expert advise google the uni of Bath, they have done extensive research on caravan stability.

Finally if someone posts a question, you have to expect replies from such as my self, who may have sorted a particular problem, by what ever means.

That then requires YOU to make a decision whether or not to adopt the suggestion?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello again John,

Fundamentally what you are saying is that contributors to a forum may not be offering the correct advice.

Sadly that is one of the characteristics of all anonymous forums, the reader has absolutely no way of knowing if the advice is accurate or not without making further enquiries elsewhere.

So if you want copper-bottomed accurate information you must go to horses mouth and don't post questions on anonymous forums or believe them.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I was perhaps a bit abrupt with my last answer, but the intent is still true.

With regard to the technicalities of trimming a caravan,

The driver has number of choices:

 

[RayS]

As you know, postings on this Forum are immediate and are only 'moderated' after the event, with (overall) very little editing or deletion. None of us Mods would claim to be 'authorities' but between us bring quite a lot of expereince of caravan matters (and, given our collective age and widely differing backgrounds0 of life. Therefore postings will be made which do contain opinion rather than hard fact, and in some instances 'hard fact' does not actually exist.

Caravan stability is a case in point. Much work has been done - typically by University of Bristol in conjunction with Baileys and you can see this on the web by Googling suitably.

It happens that the mathematics of stablity has much in common with that of my professional discipline - control engineering - and gets very very complicated. Application of the theory is equally difficult in an absolute sense - experimental conditions can almost never be extroplated to everyday usage - e.g. the degree of wear of a tyre running on a road surface of particular texture on a day of variable rainfall.

However, the reserach has prroduced several workable 'rules of thumb' which many of us have tested in practice and find to hold true within reasonable tolerances. These include keeping the centre of gravity as low as possible i.e. heavy loads near the floor; placing heavy items as near the caravan axle as practicable - thus avoiding a 'dumbell' effect (increase moment of inertia to be technical) and having the noseweight somewhere around 5% of the caravan all up weight (but keeping inside limits of hitch and car towball.

The term 'ballast' may confuse some, as it generally refers to weight added to obtain balance or a desired loading but having no other purpose. This should be rarely or never necessary with a caravan and 'correct loading' (of things you need for other purposes) is probably a better term.

All this information is widely available and we frequently refer new caravanneers to the sources - this PCV website, carvan club handbooks and publications etc. etc. Manufacturers have taken the problem of stability generally very seriously - those like me who have towed for many many years appreciate the improvements brought about by modern chassis construction, better caravan design - very few end kitchen 'vans now - and such things as hitch stabilisers and auto braking.

I apologise for 'going on a bit' but I'm afraid not everything can be as black and white as may be felt desirable.