Hi should my spirit level on the front of my van be perfectly in the middle when on the tow ball? (legs up etc) regards Jim
LEVEL TOWING?????
- Thread starter djduracell
- Start date
Simple answer
NO
With a bit more detail:-
The EU regulation state the centre of the loaded tow ball should ride between 350 and 420mm vertically from the ground. For some that might be level, but for most not necesarily.
It is not a requirement for the caravan to be 'level'.when towing.
NO
With a bit more detail:-
The EU regulation state the centre of the loaded tow ball should ride between 350 and 420mm vertically from the ground. For some that might be level, but for most not necesarily.
It is not a requirement for the caravan to be 'level'.when towing.
The Prof has mentioned the specified height of the towball. The same regulation also states that the hitch shall be between 395 and 465mm off the ground when the caravan is standing level. And both heights apply only when both car and caravan, respectively, are fully laden. It is therefore pure coincidence if the caravan is level when towing. The bias is towards a nose down attitude, but the tolerances also allow a slight nose up condition, as well.
It would be virtually impossible to load the caravan in such a way that it stands level while at the same time maintaining the correct noseload.
It would be virtually impossible to load the caravan in such a way that it stands level while at the same time maintaining the correct noseload.
The most important thing you need to do is load the caravan as per the guide in PC mag. I generally aim to get 75Kgs of nose weight as this guide figure has given me no trouble for 30 years.
Unless you're towing with a landrover or simularly high ground clearance vehicle, it will be very unlikely that you have the van looking level behind the car.
Do not flip a drop plate to give you extra height as this is actually illegal and will land you in trouble on a VOSA inspection.
Without boring you with the technical jargon, actually having the caravan nose down has the cheese wedge effect. It puts some down force load onto the caravan and may help stability.
Unless you're towing with a landrover or simularly high ground clearance vehicle, it will be very unlikely that you have the van looking level behind the car.
Do not flip a drop plate to give you extra height as this is actually illegal and will land you in trouble on a VOSA inspection.
Without boring you with the technical jargon, actually having the caravan nose down has the cheese wedge effect. It puts some down force load onto the caravan and may help stability.
A nose down attitude only has the appearance of giving the caravan more noseweight, but it is perfectly possible to achieve the same noseweight even with a nose up stance. You just have to adjust the noseweight in the same condition as when the caravan is actaully hitched to the car, which is the correct method anyway.steveinleo said:
I agree with that Lutz.
I have to add a bit more info in future.
My point is, the wedge effect of the caravn profile when presented to forward motion through the atmosphere will tend to have a benificial effect on the down force of the caravan which might give a slight improvement upon stability.
As you can see from my pfirst post, the main priority is to load the van correctly to achieve about 75 kgs nose weight.
I have to add a bit more info in future.
My point is, the wedge effect of the caravn profile when presented to forward motion through the atmosphere will tend to have a benificial effect on the down force of the caravan which might give a slight improvement upon stability.
As you can see from my pfirst post, the main priority is to load the van correctly to achieve about 75 kgs nose weight.
Unless the the towing vehicle has a lower noseweight limit,steveinleo said:
in which case this is the figure that MUST NOT be exeeded,
in any event the noseweight will have no bearing on the towing attitude of the outfit because as Lutz stated it is the towing height of the ball and hitch "under load" that determines this,
odd that as i found my last caravan towed more stable when level, rather than nose down.
Also had more clearance for the jockey wheel.
Time was when i could ask A1 towing to make a bar to achieve a level or slightly nose down tow.
Also had more clearance for the jockey wheel.
Time was when i could ask A1 towing to make a bar to achieve a level or slightly nose down tow.
Raywood said:
Nose up, level or nose down doesn't really have a bearing so long as the noseweight is adjusted accordingly. Caravans don't travel fast enough for aerodynamic properties to have anything more than a marginal effect.The advice from the Caravan Club is probably based on the assumption that many people tend to check the noseweight with the caravan level. If the front end is then raised when hitched, the noseweight would be less than when checked and that could be critical for stability. However, measuring noseweight level is not correct unless the caravan remains level when hitched.RAY said:
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You just have to adjust the noseweight in the same condition as when the caravan is actaully hitched to the car, which is the correct method anyway.
[/quote]
How do I check noseweight when I'm hitched up ? I have always used one of the Milenco gauges that sits in the nose therefore can't do it when hitched.
You just have to adjust the noseweight in the same condition as when the caravan is actaully hitched to the car, which is the correct method anyway.
[/quote]
How do I check noseweight when I'm hitched up ? I have always used one of the Milenco gauges that sits in the nose therefore can't do it when hitched.
I didn't say that one should check noseweight when hitched up, but that one should check noseweight with the hitch at the same height as when the coupling is on the towball.Mickeyblueeyes said:
Have always aimed for a slight nose down towards level. Despite the multi height arrangement we now have on the lowest setting we are if anything slightly nose up. This worried me but no amount of every day weight in the boot or extra nose weight will make a blind bit of difference to the heavy duty suspension so changed a few things around in the van and orf we toddled with fingers crossed. She's the most stable tow car I have owned so goes to show that the loading is more important than the slight upwards stance I was so worried about!!!!
hi I agree Martin,Martin24 said:
the mondeo had soft rear suspension, and towed "nose down"
the megane had stiffer suspension and a slightly higher ball height and towed "level"
while the meriva has very stiff suspension and tows "nose up" as well as having a max noseweight of only 50kg,
while I allways load the van similar. out of the 3 the meriva is the better tow, this could be down to a better power to weight ratio or the vehicle roof line being higher. but I don't think the caravan attitude makes much difference,
Hello Micky,
If you use the forum search engine you may be lucky enough to find an extensive tread about the very question you have raised.
Without going into all the fine detail again, and as Lutz has already explained, you need to check the nose weight of the caravan/trailer with the hitch at the same height from the ground as when it is hitched and ready to tow. (car and caravan loaded with luggage and people inc. driver)
The reason is a trailers nose weight changes with the height of its hitch.so anything that affects the ride height of the to hitch must be included.
I have my grave reservations about all stick type nose weight gauges, They are not adjustable for length (ride height) and all change length when a load is applied, which means they support the hitch at different heights dependent on load, the graduations are very coarse and imprecise. At present only one manufacturer claims to sell a 'calibrated model' which incidentally is meaningless without a calibration certificate, allowing you to compensate the known error of the device. You may be lucky and find that a stick type does actually settle to the same ride height as your caravan, but 99.9% of time it will be different and thus not giving you your nose weight.
VOSA use a weighbridge method, and there are domestic weighbridge devices, which will give a more consistent measurement method, and also give to details of other loads of your outfit.
You can achieve good results with a pair of bathroom scales raised to the hitch height (support such as caravan steps and magazines for fine tuning).
Despite my reservations about stick type models, I do concede that their use is better than nothing. It should prevent gross overloads, but they are far from accurate or ideal. Overloading a hitch is illegal, so I suggest always allow for about a 10% error and set the weight to be about 90% of your intended target. ( eg if you intend a 75Kg nose load set the weight at about 68Kg)
All nose weight measurements must be carried out on level ground.
If you use the forum search engine you may be lucky enough to find an extensive tread about the very question you have raised.
Without going into all the fine detail again, and as Lutz has already explained, you need to check the nose weight of the caravan/trailer with the hitch at the same height from the ground as when it is hitched and ready to tow. (car and caravan loaded with luggage and people inc. driver)
The reason is a trailers nose weight changes with the height of its hitch.so anything that affects the ride height of the to hitch must be included.
I have my grave reservations about all stick type nose weight gauges, They are not adjustable for length (ride height) and all change length when a load is applied, which means they support the hitch at different heights dependent on load, the graduations are very coarse and imprecise. At present only one manufacturer claims to sell a 'calibrated model' which incidentally is meaningless without a calibration certificate, allowing you to compensate the known error of the device. You may be lucky and find that a stick type does actually settle to the same ride height as your caravan, but 99.9% of time it will be different and thus not giving you your nose weight.
VOSA use a weighbridge method, and there are domestic weighbridge devices, which will give a more consistent measurement method, and also give to details of other loads of your outfit.
You can achieve good results with a pair of bathroom scales raised to the hitch height (support such as caravan steps and magazines for fine tuning).
Despite my reservations about stick type models, I do concede that their use is better than nothing. It should prevent gross overloads, but they are far from accurate or ideal. Overloading a hitch is illegal, so I suggest always allow for about a 10% error and set the weight to be about 90% of your intended target. ( eg if you intend a 75Kg nose load set the weight at about 68Kg)
All nose weight measurements must be carried out on level ground.
Obviously it is correct that if your tow car has a lower hitch weight capacity, you need to adhere to that. But as a general guide, there are very few tow cars with a hitch weight capacity of less than 75Kgs.
As for checking the nose weight while hitched there is realistically only one actual way.
You would have to go to a public weigh bridge with the car and caravan. Then you would drive the car onto the weigh bridge on it's own and weigh it. Then couple the caravan to the car and drive back onto the weigh bridge. You must then stop before the caravan axle goes onto the bridge.
Now do the math. Subtract weight 1 from weight 2 and that gives you the actual weight bearing onto the car from the caravan.
You can get a good measurement of the nose weight using the bathroom scale under the jockey wheel method. To do this you do the following.
Cut a piece of 3/4 inch wood to beef up the bathroom scale platform where you would normally stand.
Place this on the scale and zero the scale.
Check that the parking brake is on, on the caravan.
Assuming the caravan is un coupled, wind down the front steadies and raise the jockey wheel.
Place the scales under the jockey wheel and wind down the jockey wheel, and raise the front steady's
Now adjust the hitch height to resemble the height of the car's towball form the ground when hitched.
Take the reading on the scales.
This should be accurate enough to load to.
Having used this method to establish my best weight of about 75kgs that gives me the good tow I look for, I then us my compact weighing guage that fits between the ball on the car and the cup of the hitch on the caravan. I then puy a mark on the sliding scale of that guage to indicate the 75kg load position. I use a sharpie pen for that as it is a permenant marker unaffected by UV rays.
I do that because, the height of the caravan hitch will be about 125mm above the normal hitched height due to the guage being ontop of the towball. Now theoretically I should be as close as to the 75Kg weight without going through the weighbridge everytime.
This is realistically all you can do to achieve a sensible nose weight for towing and by using the compact guage and your own mark on it, you will be close to the same weight everytime.
Sometimes people can get a little too "hung up" on hitch weight and forget the basics of loading the van correctly following the guide published by PC.
I've heard of folks half filling aquarolls with water and using them as ballast to get the hitch weight. This can be very dangerous as liquids have residual motion stored in them when travelling and can cause the barrel to move which can cause damage to your van or in an accident it could become a 20Kg cannonball!
Next time you see a tanker lorry stop quicker than anticipated and you will see why the driver keeps his foot on the brakes. The liquid will surge back and forth and cause the truck to rock fore and back too. just as a milk tanker driver who collects from farms. He'll tell you that he is happyest empty or fully loaded and never inbetween.
As for checking the nose weight while hitched there is realistically only one actual way.
You would have to go to a public weigh bridge with the car and caravan. Then you would drive the car onto the weigh bridge on it's own and weigh it. Then couple the caravan to the car and drive back onto the weigh bridge. You must then stop before the caravan axle goes onto the bridge.
Now do the math. Subtract weight 1 from weight 2 and that gives you the actual weight bearing onto the car from the caravan.
You can get a good measurement of the nose weight using the bathroom scale under the jockey wheel method. To do this you do the following.
Cut a piece of 3/4 inch wood to beef up the bathroom scale platform where you would normally stand.
Place this on the scale and zero the scale.
Check that the parking brake is on, on the caravan.
Assuming the caravan is un coupled, wind down the front steadies and raise the jockey wheel.
Place the scales under the jockey wheel and wind down the jockey wheel, and raise the front steady's
Now adjust the hitch height to resemble the height of the car's towball form the ground when hitched.
Take the reading on the scales.
This should be accurate enough to load to.
Having used this method to establish my best weight of about 75kgs that gives me the good tow I look for, I then us my compact weighing guage that fits between the ball on the car and the cup of the hitch on the caravan. I then puy a mark on the sliding scale of that guage to indicate the 75kg load position. I use a sharpie pen for that as it is a permenant marker unaffected by UV rays.
I do that because, the height of the caravan hitch will be about 125mm above the normal hitched height due to the guage being ontop of the towball. Now theoretically I should be as close as to the 75Kg weight without going through the weighbridge everytime.
This is realistically all you can do to achieve a sensible nose weight for towing and by using the compact guage and your own mark on it, you will be close to the same weight everytime.
Sometimes people can get a little too "hung up" on hitch weight and forget the basics of loading the van correctly following the guide published by PC.
I've heard of folks half filling aquarolls with water and using them as ballast to get the hitch weight. This can be very dangerous as liquids have residual motion stored in them when travelling and can cause the barrel to move which can cause damage to your van or in an accident it could become a 20Kg cannonball!
Next time you see a tanker lorry stop quicker than anticipated and you will see why the driver keeps his foot on the brakes. The liquid will surge back and forth and cause the truck to rock fore and back too. just as a milk tanker driver who collects from farms. He'll tell you that he is happyest empty or fully loaded and never inbetween.
Hello Steve,
Taking the nose weight with the jockey wheel will always show a higher value than the the actual nose weight. So if you set you nose load to the top limit as displayed on the bathroom scales, then you will always err of the right side of the limit. But one of the difficulties in terms of accuracy when relying on the jockey wheel, is the direction the wheel is set when the measurement is taken, as the contact point with the scales will have a different distance from the main axle which will affect the applied load. You should always set the jockyey wheel in the same direction relative to the caravan.
As for ballast, I have used water containers when towing empty caravans. The containers are practical and flexible method of applying the necessary mass to compensate for manufacturers ex works excesive nose weights. The containers are secured to prevent movement, That is just a standard and obvious safety activity, and anyone who dosen't deserves what they get.
Your example of tanker drivers, is accurate and very appropriate where a fluid payloads are concerned. However most tankers have small compartmants inside the main tanks to break up and prevent the large scale movements of fluids under accelerations. The continued use of brakes whist a vehicle is stationary is just good driving practice, and should be adopted by every one - even caravanners.
In practice if the small volume of water sloshing around inside an Aquarol container is enough to destablise a trailer, then there is something very amiss with the outfit, and it shouldn't be on the roads anyway.
steveinleo said:
Taking the nose weight with the jockey wheel will always show a higher value than the the actual nose weight. So if you set you nose load to the top limit as displayed on the bathroom scales, then you will always err of the right side of the limit. But one of the difficulties in terms of accuracy when relying on the jockey wheel, is the direction the wheel is set when the measurement is taken, as the contact point with the scales will have a different distance from the main axle which will affect the applied load. You should always set the jockyey wheel in the same direction relative to the caravan.
As for ballast, I have used water containers when towing empty caravans. The containers are practical and flexible method of applying the necessary mass to compensate for manufacturers ex works excesive nose weights. The containers are secured to prevent movement, That is just a standard and obvious safety activity, and anyone who dosen't deserves what they get.
Your example of tanker drivers, is accurate and very appropriate where a fluid payloads are concerned. However most tankers have small compartmants inside the main tanks to break up and prevent the large scale movements of fluids under accelerations. The continued use of brakes whist a vehicle is stationary is just good driving practice, and should be adopted by every one - even caravanners.
In practice if the small volume of water sloshing around inside an Aquarol container is enough to destablise a trailer, then there is something very amiss with the outfit, and it shouldn't be on the roads anyway.
Hi there guys, FANTASTIC information, thanks so much, been away for the weekend so just read all the replys just now, not had a chance to messure the height of the hitch when attached to ball, I did just go out the now and weigh the hitch with blocks of wood and bathroom scales, it was 122kg my caravan max weight is to be 1300kg, I did find a thing in caravan club site saying nose weight should be 85kg as I own a 1999 passat tdi, I am assuming I nead to reduce the nose weight??, I have been looking at alot of caravans being towed over the weekend and there was very very few that wasnt low at the front, as I am new to caravaning I just want everything to be correct and stick to this over the coming years.
Yes, if 85kg is the noseweight limit for the Passat you will need to reduce it to get to that level.
Hi.
At 122Kg you are well over the hitch limit for the caravan and probably also for the car and illegal.
Both the car and the caravan have nose weight limits, and if they are different you must not exceed the lower of the two values.
The majority of caravans use Alko Chassis and hitches and they tend to have a limit of 100Kg,
Domestic cars have limits ty[ically around 75Kg, but to confirm yours check the data plate on the towbar assembly fitted to your car which should carry the max nose weight value you are allowed.
You must trim the caravan to give a nose weight value close to but not exceeding your available capacity, and don't forget that when you reduce you nose weight the tow ball will rise a little so you will need to recheck your ride height.
At 122Kg you are well over the hitch limit for the caravan and probably also for the car and illegal.
Both the car and the caravan have nose weight limits, and if they are different you must not exceed the lower of the two values.
The majority of caravans use Alko Chassis and hitches and they tend to have a limit of 100Kg,
Domestic cars have limits ty[ically around 75Kg, but to confirm yours check the data plate on the towbar assembly fitted to your car which should carry the max nose weight value you are allowed.
You must trim the caravan to give a nose weight value close to but not exceeding your available capacity, and don't forget that when you reduce you nose weight the tow ball will rise a little so you will need to recheck your ride height.
http://www.witter-towbars.co.uk/towbars/faq8.php# Hope this link works. Reading this thread it's stated that the tow ball height should be between 395 - 465 above the ground, my tow bar (Witter) just reaches the lower figure unloaded. I checked Witter web site and they state as link, that shows my tow bar specs Which is right? One set of figures I'm legal the other I'm not. Read the questian HOW HIGH SHOULD THE TOW BALL BE
I'm afraid you misread the information in this thread. The towball should be between 350mm and 420mm above the ground when the car is fully laden (as correctly stated in the Witter website). However, the hitch on the caravan should be between 395 and 465mm when the caravan is standing level.
This ensures a bias towards a nose down condition, but under adverse tolerances the caravan could also be slightly nose up.
This ensures a bias towards a nose down condition, but under adverse tolerances the caravan could also be slightly nose up.
Hi Lutz I think your information was very straight forward, but I havent had the vav hitched up for a few weeks and wont be doing this for atleast another 2 weeks so I went the other route and weighed the nose weight of the van, my tow bar does state 75kg and I had it at 122kg, I have now moved things about and got the van at 85kg, anything to go in the van before going away will be put in the rear of the van, I will be checking the height when hitched up, a think I did read was with an Alko hitch stabaliser on the van you should never be over 100kg, my van has this so I am glad I have now reduced the weight, Thanks so much to everyone again for all of your help. kind regards Jim
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