Lib Dem responce - ú2000 road tax

[CliveV]

Decided to take Del's advice and tackle the Lib Dems direct on this latest bit of silliness:-

This is their response to my asking them if they think that a £2000 road tax proposal is going to make people want to vote for them after their already dismal results in the recent local elections.

"Thank you for your email. Let me start by answering your assertion that we did badly in the local elections. We did not. We beat the Labour party in total votes cast and we made net gains in terms of councils and seats.

The proposals we have apply only to new vehicles. They do not apply to a 4X4 category of vehicles. Instead, the rates will be based on the carbon emissions for a particular type of vehicle per kilometre. The more pollution per kilometre a type of vehicle causes, the higher the tax band. Therefore the least polluting vehicles will pay far less. Many 4X4 vehicles would not fall into the top category and therefore would not be taxed at the £2000 rate. We anticipate that manufacturers will want to develop further the fuel efficiency of their 4X4 vehicles to ensure they carry less tax. We will also apply a discount to the most rural areas though not to the top rate applying to the most polluting vehicles.

Dr Jonathan Wallace

Communications Unit

Liberal Democrats"

So if you live in rural areas you are going to have discount!

What a load of spherical objects! - All that will do is to make having a rural home even more attractive so that local will be priced out of the market even more than they are now!

For goodness sake guys - email these idiots to let them know what you think!

Jonathan Wallace [J.Wallace@libdems.org.uk]

 

[Rioja]

Hi Clive, although I agree in principal on taxing emissions, the applied discount to rural areas is indeed badly judged. I can see all those suburban dwellers heading off to their second homes in the country gleeful in the knowledge that the authentic mud on their cars, proudly displayed back in town, will have been subsidised !

 

[RogerL]

The most effective way to reduce emissions is to increase fuel duty - the more you use the more you pay - but that's hardly going to get any more votes than

 

[CliveV]

Only if you believe that the car is the sole polluter Roger - it is ONE of the sources of pollution, but by no means the largest.

The article in the Guardian on Tuesday this week, quoted government figures that showed that the five (YES - JUST THE TOP FIVE!) biggest industrial polluters produce more CO2 than all motorist combined.

EON UK - the electricity generator produces 26.4 Million tonnes - which is apparently more than Croatia did.

Eon UK, RWE NPower, Drax, Corus & EDF produced more than 100m tonnes of CO2 in 2005. The UK motorists 26 million cars produce 91m tonnes of CO2 each year.

So whilst heads of industry get a Knighthood in return for a "loan", whilst their companies spew out CO2, we the motorist get the blame and pay 80% tax on our fuel!

And if the Lib Dems ever get into power (fat chance now) they would have some of us pay

 

[RogerL]

Clive - stick to the subject - Lib Dem policy on taxing cars!

I know we should be reducing all forms of emissions.

 

[CliveV]

Fail to see how pointing out that whilst the motorist is taxed heavily and possibly to be taxed even more, the main polluters get given Government grants to polute several time more than the total cars in the UK!

Lack of joined up thinking is obviously not limited to the Lib Dems alone!

LOL!!!

 

[RogerL]

These "main polluters" are only providing services and products which we, the consumer, want or need. If we didn't buy their products and services they wouldn't pollute.

As I stated, all forms of emissions need to be reduced.

Clive I assume from your indignant and righteous stance that you don't use any electricity at home or on site, and never buy any products made using electricity to avoid YOUR supplier causing pollution.

 

[colin(bridgend)]

What difference is the CO2 emissions in this country going to make to the overall global picture? America and China - two of the biggest culprits of gas emissions have refused to sign up to the treaty, therefore is our so called contribution to saving the ozone layer sufficient to counterbalance the output from these two major contributers. Let's get real and face facts the gestures the political parties are trying to potray in saving the world is a total farce and should be sent back to the comic books where it belongs. As Clive has stated the 5 major contributers in this country are heavy industry and not the motorist. Also if the government is so concerned about these emissions why not reduce heavy commercial emissions, get the rail service back on track as far as being a major transporter of passenger and freight and transfer the passenger/freight back to the railways. Today on the BBC news it highlighted the rail ticket farce regarding pricing - London to Manchester saver ticket return

 

[CliveV]

Now you are just being silly - my point is simple.

Motorists are taxed more than big business.

Yes I do use fuel for heating - and that fuel does not suffer the 80% fuel duty that we all pay for our cars fuel. And yet a domestic boiler, gas or oil, produces the same pollutants as a car. So why isn't domestic fuel taxed the same?

To suggest that I am somehow "rightiously indignant" totally misses the point!

The oil/coal/gas that is burnt either directly by the consumer or used to generate electricity is NOT taxed the same as petrol or diesel (tho LPG is taxed a bit less - Heh heh heh!)

And yet these uses of oil/coal/gas produce more CO2 and other pollutants than all the cars in the UK!

Now tell me that this is fair!!

 

[CliveV]

What difference is the CO2 emissions in this country going to make to the overall global picture? America and China - two of the biggest culprits of gas emissions have refused to sign up to the treaty, therefore is our so called contribution to saving the ozone layer sufficient to counterbalance the output from these two major contributers. Let's get real and face facts the gestures the political parties are trying to potray in saving the world is a total farce and should be sent back to the comic books where it belongs. As Clive has stated the 5 major contributers in this country are heavy industry and not the motorist. Also if the government is so concerned about these emissions why not reduce heavy commercial emissions, get the rail service back on track as far as being a major transporter of passenger and freight and transfer the passenger/freight back to the railways. Today on the BBC news it highlighted the rail ticket farce regarding pricing - London to Manchester saver ticket return

 

[RogerL]

Do you really want vat at 17.5% AND fuel duty added to your electricity bill, instead of the 5% vat currently levied. That would be fair but we'd all have to pay extra!

 

[colin(bridgend)]

Going off on a tangent slightly I recently visited the Centre For Alternative Energy in mid Wales and, as a retrired chartered building suveyor,was astounded to read that the solar panels used at the centre were not cast efficient. The amount of material, time and effort in manufacturing the panels did not justify the anticipated life span of approx. 20 years. For these panels to break even in overall costing the minimum life span was to be at least 25 years. Where is the sense in this in manufacturing a product which will not be of overall financial and environmental benefit to the consumer?

 

[CliveV]

Don't be daft Roger! - of course I don't. I just want the numpties like the Lib Dems and the anti 4x4/ant car loud mouthed minority "action groups" to realise that the car is NOT the major polluter they say it is.

If the Lib Dems were serious about reducing polution rather than pandering to a vocal minority that they think they may be able to buy a few votes from, them they would tackle the big problem rather than suggesting a further tax on "Mr Average".

The average CO2 emmissions from a family home is circa 2 tonnes.

A flight to Australia 6 tonnes

From a car - 2.5 tonnes

(source - Environment Agency - University of East Anglia)

So why does the latter suffer an 80% user tax whilst aviation fuel is tax free and virtualy no tax on household fuel.

I do NOT want more tax on other fuels - just a level playing field and recognition that cars are not the major problem.

 

[colin(bridgend)]

Clive I think you are being hammered on this topic unfairly and I would not like to see another confrontation as happened a few days ago regarding another posting on this forum whereby the mod. stepped in and cleared the lot. I would suggest that you back off graciously and let the other contributers think as they so wish - you are not going to convince them otherwaise. You are right to have your opinion which to a certain degree I agree with but unfortunately I think it should be left amicably as a point to agree to disagree. Sorry Clive but I would not like the same to happen again and the bitterness it caused recently.

 

[stantonks@hotmail.com]

The most effective way to reduce emissions is to increase fuel duty - the more you use the more you pay - but that's hardly going to get any more votes than

 

[stantonks@hotmail.com]

These "main polluters" are only providing services and products which we, the consumer, want or need. If we didn't buy their products and services they wouldn't pollute.

As I stated, all forms of emissions need to be reduced.

Clive I assume from your indignant and righteous stance that you don't use any electricity at home or on site, and never buy any products made using electricity to avoid YOUR supplier causing pollution.

Are you the chairman of the Electric Board or some other big concern.

 

[jon_5062082]

we all need electricity but there has to be a better way of producing it without pumping 21m tonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere every year plus all the other nasties you get by burning cheaper USA sourced petroleum coke.(and thats just one coal fired power station )no wonder after they floated drax power on the stockmarket everyone who worked there got a huge share dividend.they are making millions by burning cheap s**e and not giving a stuff about the way they pollute.dont notice my leccy bill dropping though.

the politicians mess about by hammering the motorist while industry gets away with it, they have no incentive to clean up their act.

 

[colin(bridgend)]

we all need electricity but there has to be a better way of producing it without pumping 21m tonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere every year plus all the other nasties you get by burning cheaper USA sourced petroleum coke.(and thats just one coal fired power station )no wonder after they floated drax power on the stockmarket everyone who worked there got a huge share dividend.they are making millions by burning cheap s**e and not giving a stuff about the way they pollute.dont notice my leccy bill dropping though.

the politicians mess about by hammering the motorist while industry gets away with it, they have no incentive to clean up their act.

Also cheap nasty imported coke being burnt at Port Talbot & Llanwern steel works by Corus - the soot drop out in Margam every day from the blast furnaces is unbelievable.

 

[RogerL]

Nuclear power stations produce zero CO2 so we could solve global warming by changing 100% to nuclear - oh yes there is a problem with the waste product, let's just bury it!

How about we ALL tackle it by using less energy from every source?

 

[DavidW1]

Getting slightly off track I know but does any body have any up to date info on the progress of Nuclear fusion. About 20 years ago my company got a small order to manufacture components for the Joint European Taurus (JET) at Culham. Got interested at the time because of the involvement and they were then constructing a centrifuge that would accelerate plasma to prodce fusion. The concept is attractive in that you generate immense heat with little raw material input and no nuclear waste - the heat is then harnessed to produce steam and drive turbines to generate electricity in the conventional way.

There is much talk about alternative energy, wind and tide etc. but you never hear about fusion.

If it could be made to work on a commercial scale it would seem to be the answer to the planets enviromental woes - any body hear about it or is up to date on the story?

 

[DavidW1]

P.S Just put Joint European Taurus into the search engine and the website answers my question - fascinating stuff! Why arn't politicians pushing this? Possibly vested interst in huge tax takes from Oil companies and multi national power generators - or is that too cynical??

 

[MikeAce]

regrettably the current labour government is not giving us much incentive to buy less emmision emmitting cars.

I converted my 2 year old vectra to LPG which lowered my emmissions to that of a ford KA. this should lower my tax by about 70 pound a year.

I contacted the DVLA and produced a certificate to prove the new emmisions, they refuse to change my banding, this is to keep things simple for them they told me.

bottom line, i now have to go miles out of my way to fill up, i payed 1700 for the conversion and our (apparently) environmentally friendlt government are still screwing me like a normal petrol car.

(whinge whinge whinge)

 

[DavidW1]

regrettably the current labour government is not giving us much incentive to buy less emmision emmitting cars.

I converted my 2 year old vectra to LPG which lowered my emmissions to that of a ford KA. this should lower my tax by about 70 pound a year.

I contacted the DVLA and produced a certificate to prove the new emmisions, they refuse to change my banding, this is to keep things simple for them they told me.

bottom line, i now have to go miles out of my way to fill up, i payed 1700 for the conversion and our (apparently) environmentally friendlt government are still screwing me like a normal petrol car.

(whinge whinge whinge)

I sympathise - my Vectra is a factory fit but is a 2000 model, the 2001, which is identical, gets the reduced tax and I don't. Reason vehicle not submitted for test by the manufacturer until 2001. Still we do get the reduced tax at the pump so it's not all bad.

 

[MikeAce]

I sympathise - my Vectra is a factory fit but is a 2000 model, the 2001, which is identical, gets the reduced tax and I don't. Reason vehicle not submitted for test by the manufacturer until 2001. Still we do get the reduced tax at the pump so it's not all bad.

Hi David

It seems that only people who can afford new cars get to pay less tax, lol

the frustrating thint is that mine too is a factory fit, all vauxhalls when new are converted in Milbrook. i had mine done up there, it went down the production line with brand new cars. it is identical to that of a brand new dual fuel.

still, they will sting you from all angles if theres a way.

You are right though, everytime i fill her up i get a smile on my face knowing that brown isnt getting any of it.