Luton car park fire

[Dustydog]

UK Dave asked

I wonder what the insurance position is if the source of the fire can be clearly identified to have originated from a single vehicle?

You must prove beyond all reasonable doubt the Owner of the vehicle was negligent in Law allowing the fire to start and spread. Virtually impossible imo.
Will everyone else be able to claim off the vehicle at fault insurance , thus saving their excess payment and possible NCB erosion?

Only if they can prove the above, ie absolute strictly legally negligent .

 

[Raywood]

The problem is almost certainly that the damage is so severe that the actual cause will not be precisely ascertainable so the location rather than the exact cause exact cause might be all we get.
In the remote circumstance of the exact cause being ascertained then the owner would need to show that they were not negligent. Basically if they can show the car was correctly maintained and they had no reason to suspect a problem that should do it. There insurer will almost certainly be doing the necessary investigation now.

 

[Buckman]

The problem is almost certainly that the damage is so severe that the actual cause will not be precisely ascertainable so the location rather than the exact cause exact cause might be all we get.
In the remote circumstance of the exact cause being ascertained then the owner would need to show that they were not negligent. Basically if they can show the car was correctly maintained and they had no reason to suspect a problem that should do it. There insurer will almost certainly be doing the necessary investigation now.

I would think that servicing records for the car in question may be requested and if it has not been maintain as per the servicing schedule there may be issues.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Evidence of a service is not evidence of vehicle safety, An MOT would have a more direct relevance, though as is all too often pointed out an MOT is a snapshot in time of the MOT inspection, and not a guarantee roadworthiness for any extended period.

Unless there is evidence of deliberate arson, or definite evidence of negligence, I suspect each affected car owner will end up having to cover their loss or claim off their own insurance.

 

[Buckman]

However lack of servicing could be the root cause of the fire however we should not speculate either way until we know all the facts. Again more speculation and for all we know the vehicle could have been the subject of a recall and as it had not been serviced, the recall was never done.

 

[otherclive]

However lack of servicing could be the root cause of the fire however we should not speculate either way until we know all the facts. Again more speculation and for all we know the vehicle could have been the subject of a recall and as it had not been serviced, the recall was never done.

Kia and Hyundai have last month issued a recall fir 3M+ cars in the USA due to potential fire risks associated brake fluid leakage. I very much doubt that the root cause would be picked up in the service schedule as it’s an O ring problem. A diligent mechanic might have spotted it. Serviced vehicles can spring faults even after service so it’s unlikely that a shortfall in servicing would be blamed.

 

[Buckman]

Kia and Hyundai have last month issued a recall fir 3M+ cars in the USA due to potential fire risks associated brake fluid leakage. I very much doubt that the root cause would be picked up in the service schedule as it’s an O ring problem. A diligent mechanic might have spotted it. Serviced vehicles can spring faults even after service so it’s unlikely that a shortfall in servicing would be blamed.

I agree that if the recall is not issued, the issue probably would not be picked up on a routine service. However when taking a vehicle in for a service the recall is automatically done.

On the recall sheet you are also advised that if the recall is not done, your insurance may be affected. I had a recall on our 2005 Jeep over 6 years from when it was purchased initially and we were the third owner and this was stated in the letter. I would assume this is standard advice on any recall notice.

 

[Dustydog]

However lack of servicing could be the root cause of the fire however we should not speculate either way until we know all the facts. Again more speculation and for all we know the vehicle could have been the subject of a recall and as it had not been serviced, the recall was never done.

Possible but not everyone uses a mechanic. There are quite a few on here who have done their own servicing for years, their cars regularly passing the MOT.

In my experience of Car Product Recalls it is incumbent upon the Manufacturer to take all reasonable steps to track down the owner and tell them. Telling a main dealer is only part of the story. The DVLA help them find the owner with information. Thereafter DVLA log the recall in their public database.

Perhaps more worrying for us all is exactly what is a service? An oil change? Tyre pressures? Filters?

 

[otherclive]

I agree that if the recall is not issued, the issue probably would not be picked up on a routine service. However when taking a vehicle in for a service the recall is automatically done.

On the recall sheet you are also advised that if the recall is not done, your insurance may be affected. I had a recall on our 2005 Jeep over 6 years from when it was purchased initially and we were the third owner and this was stated in the letter. I would assume this is standard advice on any recall notice.

If you use a non franchise garage they may not be aware of recalls or technical bulletins, so the recall job would not be incorporated.

 

[Buckman]

If you use a non franchise garage they may not be aware of recalls or technical bulletins, so the recall job would not be incorporated.

Does not matter as you are sent the letter to the address on the V5 by the manufacturer. The DVSA give the manufacturer the addresses for affected vehicles. The recall is obviously free and it would have to be a very foolish person that ignores a recall sent to them by letter.

 

[otherclive]

Does not matter as you are sent the letter to the address on the V5 by the manufacturer. The DVSA give the manufacturer the addresses for affected vehicles. The recall is obviously free and it would have to be a very foolish person that ignores a recall sent to them by letter.

Thanks I do know how recalls work as over the years I’ve had a few cars affected.

 

[Buckman]

Thanks I do know how recalls work as over the years I’ve had a few cars affected.

Apologies as your posts came across that you had never received any and were not aware of the procedure.

 

[otherclive]

Apologies as your posts came across that you had never received any and were not aware of the procedure.

I was just seeking to supplement your statement which is only correct if the car goes in to a franchised dealership for service.

"I agree that if the recall is not issued, the issue probably would not be picked up on a routine service. However when taking a vehicle in for a service the recall is automatically done."

 

[Buckman]

I was just seeking to supplement your statement which is only correct if the car goes in to a franchised dealership for service.

"I agree that if the recall is not issued, the issue probably would not be picked up on a routine service. However when taking a vehicle in for a service the recall is automatically done."

There is no necessity for the vehicle to be serviced when in for a recall. Sorry I thought that was fairly obvious, but obviously I never worded it correctly . Thank you for pointing out such a glaring mistake by me.

 

[Buckman]

I think this thread as run its course and needs to be closed!

 

[RogerL]

I agree that if the recall is not issued, the issue probably would not be picked up on a routine service. However when taking a vehicle in for a service the recall is automatically done.

On the recall sheet you are also advised that if the recall is not done, your insurance may be affected. I had a recall on our 2005 Jeep over 6 years from when it was purchased initially and we were the third owner and this was stated in the letter. I would assume this is standard advice on any recall notice.

Recalls shouldn't be done automatically - they should only be done with the owners' consent.

Some of the software changes done as recalls have potential to make things worse - word gets around on internet forums and savvy owners avoid having them done.

 

[otherclive]

Recalls shouldn't be done automatically - they should only be done with the owners' consent.

Some of the software changes done as recalls have potential to make things worse - word gets around on internet forums and savvy owners avoid having them done.

Did you have the Dieselgate recall installed? I had it installed in my 2.0litre Superb and could not tell any difference either when driving or on fuel usage. But some owners on the Skoda Forum swore that it had affected their cars.

 

[RogerL]

Did you have the Dieselgate recall installed? I had it installed in my 2.0litre Superb and could not tell any difference either when driving or on fuel usage. But some owners on the Skoda Forum swore that it had affected their cars.

According to VW UK there was no "dieselgate recall" for the V6/V8 diesels, ie they have always maintained that it only affected the 4-cylinder models - but they did issue an "emissions update" which I declined to have for quite some time until it seemed clear from internet forums that there were no driveability issues so I eventually had it done - it was just a software update and my Adblue consumption has gone up a little but I'm ok with that if it helps the environment.

 

[ProfJohnL]

This has strayed a little off topic, but because recalls have been raised, and some comments have been made that need some additional information.

Not all recalls are managed through the DVSA. It will depend on the nature of the recall, and if there is any urgency either to meet safety or legal requirements.
Specifically my daughter continued to receive recall notices for a car that she had sold on, so the DVSA data base was not used.

Recall work is not always tagged onto normal service schedules or work. Frequently you have to specifically request the recall to be carried out .You normally have to book your vehicle in to have the recall work carried out

Some recalls may only advisory but some may be mandatory depending on the nature of the problem.

Ultimately if you own the car, then it is up to you to decide if any recall work should be carried out on your property.

With some modern cars, in my case a 2017 VW Passat, I use an independent garage but they have to log onto the VW data base to log services, and that also gives them access to service bulletins and software updates etc, and any manufacturers recall information.

 

[Buckman]

I am really sorry that i mentioned in #28 that servicing records "MAY" be requested as that has led to all sorts of wild speculation about recalls and servicing almost as it I had used the word "will" instead of "MAY". After all it is up to the insurance companies to decide how any claims should be progressed.

 

[Dustydog]

This has strayed a little off topic, but because recalls have been raised, and some comments have been made that need some additional information.

Not all recalls are managed through the DVSA. It will depend on the nature of the recall, and if there is any urgency either to meet safety or legal requirements.
Specifically my daughter continued to receive recall notices for a car that she had sold on, so the DVSA data base was not used.

Recall work is not always tagged onto normal service schedules or work. Frequently you have to specifically request the recall to be carried out .You normally have to book your vehicle in to have the recall work carried out

Some recalls may only advisory but some may be mandatory depending on the nature of the problem.

Ultimately if you own the car, then it is up to you to decide if any recall work should be carried out on your property.

With some modern cars, in my case a 2017 VW Passat, I use an independent garage but they have to log onto the VW data base to log services, and that also gives them access to service bulletins and software updates etc, and any manufacturers recall information.

It may have strayed off a little but does cover a very wide interesting point worthy of its own thread?
All the product recall claims I have seen insured or not are the absolute total responsibility of the Manufacturer. They can and will use the DVSA for access to the identity of the registered keeper of a vehicle . DVSA in my experience have never played an active part in the recall.
Your independent must be paying a fee to VAG Audi for such access.
A couple of years ago Roger gave me a heads up on a blocked drainage channel on my VW. It wasn’t a recall but a technical bulletin issued to VW Dealers only. The VW dealer in Solihull took a few days to track down the bulletin. The remedial work was carried out foc.I doubt that bulletin would appear on an indies computer?

My experience with Kia has been very different. Our main dealer at Chippenham has always been proactive and has done “fixes” at the service. It is worth noting these fixes were not necessarily safety items or recalls but recommended checks and replace if necessary.

 

[otherclive]

At times I used a VAG Independent for servicing and repairs my Skoda Superb. They had access to the full suite of VAG diagnostics. They could upload the service details to VAG and those details went into the car's record, but they could not upload any details of repairs carried out to the car's records. For recall work that was carried out by the franchised dealership at a mutually agreed date/time.

 

[ProfJohnL]

It may have strayed off a little but does cover a very wide interesting point worthy of its own thread?
All the product recall claims I have seen insured or not are the absolute total responsibility of the Manufacturer. They can and will use the DVSA for access to the identity of the registered keeper of a vehicle . DVSA in my experience have never played an active part in the recall.
Your independent must be paying a fee to VAG Audi for such access.
A couple of years ago Roger gave me a heads up on a blocked drainage channel on my VW. It wasn’t a recall but a technical bulletin issued to VW Dealers only. The VW dealer in Solihull took a few days to track down the bulletin. The remedial work was carried out foc.I doubt that bulletin would appear on an indies computer?

My experience with Kia has been very different. Our main dealer at Chippenham has always been proactive and has done “fixes” at the service. It is worth noting these fixes were not necessarily safety items or recalls but recommended checks and replace if necessary.

Yes my indy does have to pay to access the VAG system, but the owner recons it's worth it, especially as it also provides more detail about some more detailed features including product technical bulletins. Apparently most of the major manufacturers are going in much the same way. Centralising service information records makes it easier for customers to get their cars booked for work almost anywhere. The other advantage is the manufacturer can review the reliability data about their products, which can inform on what problems arise, and where to focus research investment and spread information and best practice.

 

[RogerL]

The other advantage is the manufacturer can review the reliability data about their products, which can inform on what problems arise, and where to focus research investment and spread information and best practice.

It seems to me that many car, and caravan, manufacturers keep reliability data secret and don't bother to use it to improve future models!

 

[ProfJohnL]

It seems to me that many car, and caravan, manufacturers keep reliability data secret and don't bother to use it to improve future models!

I would certainly agree with that point in regards to Caravan manufacturers, but car manufacturers are frequently making small changes which could be the result of reliability (and cost) issues.