M5 accident J24

[Steve L]

There has been arguably the worst accident in the history of the M5's history yesterday.

While I do wish to pass our sympathies and thoughts on to those involved and their relatives, there will now be yet more questions asked of the "authorities" as to what happened. Also I guess there will again be a call for no increase in the speed limit.

I have for 4 years travelled on various days and nights from Herefordshire to Taunton visiting or conveying my daughter to and from university.

I have seen plenty of minor accidents in the area and IMO they were all caused by driver error either by lack of attention to the matter in hand "driving" or by simply not using the lane structure as it was intended.

What I think should be implemented is a driver assessment scheme where by, the driver goes every five years, for a short (30 min) assessment of their driving skills. This could very easily be conducted by the local police. I mention the police, as it would be a good opportunity for them to gain a better rapour and understanding by motorists instead of the image of ticket clippies that they have today. The assessment should be structured around advice rather than critisisum. Furthermore, I would support the driving test and lessons being updated to include motorway driving and not offered as a "pass plus" extra added on after learners become "qualified".
As it stands today a person could pass their driving test on their 17th birthday and bomb down the motorway the same day having no idea of how difficult and totally aloof the motorways are to what is portrayed in the highway code.

The pre-requisite of a motorway driver is to not only have excellent driving skills, but also ESP,PSP and built in radar for people driving their vehicles in totally illogical ways. By that I mean hog the center lanes, drive at less than 20ft behind the vehicle in front at 70 Mph and drive in poor visability without rear fog lights on or even worse just side lights in day time rain.

 

[RogerL]

The weather and/or visibility seems to have been a major factor.
I've long supported the idea that ALL motorways should have variable speeds limits which are strictly enforced so that the Highway Agency can reduce limits to suit conditions and then raise them afterwards - for me this should be a pre-requisite before increasing the top limit to 80mph.
I've also long supported the idea that average driving standards in the UK are woefully low and that the worst 50% of drivers should be taken off the road - strange that not many support that idea !!!

 

[Surfer]

I agree with Roger in that weather, speed and driving too clsoe to one another are all contributing factors to an accident of this sort. It takes just one driver to lsoe their concentration for a split second, i.e. fireworks nearby to M5 and ther is an accident.
Any one remeber the terrible accident on the M42 in March 1997 when 160 vehilces were involved. That was caused by people speeding into a bank of fog and one of them running into the back of another plus vehicles tailgating one another. amazingly there were only 3 fatalities.
You may be driving according to the various road conditions and taking weather into consideration but some other idiot isn't and then causes a major pile up and you are involved through no fault of your own. Isn't that stretch of the road notorious for accidents?

 

[RogerL]

There is a simple way to match speed and visibility - you MUST be able to stop within the distance you can see to be clear.

 

[MichaelE]

A couple of reports say the Police are looking into smoke from the adjacent firework display drifting across the motorway, which means that smoke must have drifted across?

I would like add my thoughts are with the families of those involved.

 

[otherclive]

I have driven through the Somerset Levels on many occassions and they are notorious at this time of year for localised mist patches rising from the level drains. The Highways Agency could not hope to advise reduced limits as the mists move and can come and go quite quickly. You just have to keep your defensive space around near vehicles and keep speed down as your dipped lights will not give you anything near to a safe braking distance.

 

[Dustydog]

I know the stretch very well.
The Rugby Football Club was having a Fireworks night and possibly the drivers were swan necking and not payig attention.
So what next?
Very upsetting for the families of the fatalities and I do feel for them so close to Christmas.
Taking Steve's points.
Reducing the speed limit wont help. Unless you can guarantee the driver is properly observing what's ahead no speed limit will stop such uneccessay carnage.
Extra driver checks every five years has an attraction. It will have to be funded by the poor driver / motorist who's hard pushed anyway and don't forget the poor old police are being "shrunk" every day.
Mind you Steve you may well solve the unemployment problem with your suggestion

.

 

[mullsy1]

Dont see a 30 min test proving anything.As soon as they get the examiner out of the way,back into the old routine.The only way forward is for greater enforcement,but as Dusty points out,police numbers are on the decline.I wonder how many centre lane hoggers are actually given a ticket each year?Not too many methinks

 

[Steve L]

It has come to light that there may well of been a fireworks display going on at the time of the incident.
It's about time fireworks were limited to proffessionally licensed events only and there should be an exclusion zone around motorways and other routes at risk of accidents. It appears that rubber necking is again the most likely cause of the accident and not spedd on it's own, which is usually blamed for crashes.
There is a field between J23 & J22 used every sunday in the summer for a car boot right next to the motorway. I have lost count of the number or rear end shunts I've seen at that spot, because of people suddenly braking to *** off at the next junction to go to the car boot.
Mullsey, you may be quite right that some people might just treat a driving assessment with the blazey attitude you suggested, but being quite honest a trained police assessor would be looking out for a couldn't careless driver and note accordingly. I do agree Dusty , that the police might be stretched due to cut backs, but if they could concentrate on driver skills rather than the £60 & 3 points tickets for one day a week, there might be a self motivated reduction in the need for inapropriate speed.

Being brutally honest, those of us on here who are in favor of improovements to the way the motorway network is run and used, are the people who would go to a driver assessment with an open mind and welcome constructive critasisum. It's the ones who couldn't give a S*1t, who will stand out a mile. Also if the thought that a test sharpens & focus's the mind has an affect, we might see some improvement.

 

[RogerL]

Being brutally honest, those of us on here who are in favor of improovements to the way the motorway network is run and used, are the people who would go to a driver assessment with an open mind and welcome constructive critasisum. It's the ones who couldn't give a S*1t, who will stand out a mile. Also if the thought that a test sharpens & focus's the mind has an affect, we might see some improvement.

100% spot-on - it's the difference between those who welcome constructive criticism and those who don't - but sadly that's the same problem with many aspects of society.

 

[Surfer]

By the same token one can do all the tests necessary and even get an "advanced Driving" licence, but if the idiot in the other lane suddenly decides to cut you up top get off at a junction or indicates change of lane regardless of the speed of traffic forcing every one to brake, what hope do you stand of not being involved ina pile up?
When I did my high speed pursuit police driver training, we were taught to look out for tell tale signs, i.e. driver looking to his left all the time may indicate he is going to change lanes unexpectedly or turn left. Some don't and just turn as if they are the only one on the road. The next thing is you have a collison.

 

[Parksy]

I'm not altogether convinced that driver re-assessment in the form of a test every few years would prevent incidents such as this latest one on the M5.
We all know that when faced with the prospect of a driving test ( I took and passed a vehicle driving test, a PSV for a 54 seat coach, a hgv 3 and an hgv 1 driving test) our driving will be up to standard because we want to pass the test.
Maintaining that standard at all times is another matter altogether and drivers should be taught and constantly reminded that a driving licence is a privilege and not a right.
As it happened I gave up my PSV entitlement when I drove lorries and I carried mainly steel, some of it bright bar which was considered to be a 'slippery load' and oiled plate which was indeed very slippery and potentially unstable without great care being taken when loading and when travelling.
For that reason I adopted defensive driving techniques because excessive braking or sudden stops may well have resulted in up to 14 tonnes of bright bar heading straight for my jacksy in the cab of the lorry and a jack knife or loss of control would have resulted in carnage.
Although I no longer drive for a living I continue to drive defensively and do do my very best to maintain my standards and I'm of the opinion that if this was taught at the initial stages and was part of the driving test overall standards of driving would be higher.
More enforcement on the roads and motorways would help, cameras can't prosecute drunk, dangerous or careless drivers and although speed cameras have a part to play in road safety there is an over reliance on these when more police patrols are needed.
If we cant afford police even plastic plods with the power to photograph and report dangerous or careless drivers on roads and motorways and especially those idiots using mobile phones or texting, would help.
Investigations are continuing into the causes of the M5 incident, on the surface it looks as though drivers were travelling too fast and too close to each other for the prevailing conditions at the time with surface water, poor visibility because of fog or smoke.
What is clear for all to see is that at least two articulated lorries had jacknifed which is indicative of excessive braking in wet conditions resulting in a loss of control. To have lost control when stopping the trucks must have been travelling too fast to stop in a straight line within the distance available to them and as an ex professional driver I wish that lorry drivers who travelled too close to the vehicle in front would immediately lose their licences, but of course they'd have to be caught by police patrols that are largely missing from our roads or motorways first.

 

[RogerL]

By the same token one can do all the tests necessary and even get an "advanced Driving" licence, but if the idiot in the other lane suddenly decides to cut you up top get off at a junction or indicates change of lane regardless of the speed of traffic forcing every one to brake, what hope do you stand of not being involved ina pile up?
When I did my high speed pursuit police driver training, we were taught to look out for tell tale signs, i.e. driver looking to his left all the time may indicate he is going to change lanes unexpectedly or turn left. Some don't and just turn as if they are the only one on the road. The next thing is you have a collison.

But if everyone followed the same principles taught in both police training and Advanced motoring then only the first car would hit the idiot - the rest would be able to stop safely as they will have left sufficient gaps - in other words, no multiple pile-up.
Sadly, the majority don't and won't follow those principles.
The latest news update on the accident investigation says that "the nearby firework display is the major line of enquiry"

 

[Steve L]

Spot on there roger. I have been trained in IAM and ROSPA safe driving standards. Had I not of been, there would of been a dozen cars in Hereford without a drivers door. Thats because of idiots who swing the door wide open without looking.
Like Parkesy I have got Motorcycle and LGV 1 (HGV 1) to my credit and I also drive deffencively. One of the biggest pay backs to that style of driving is dammed good fuel economy and a very long life of tyres, brake pads and clutch plates. I've towed low loaders up to 60 ton gross and shifted some pretty big volvo dump trucks as used in the open cast mining industry. Keeping a load like that moving smoothly and stopping without burning the brakes out is a skill.

Unfortunately today people are spoilt by esp, abs, and power assisted everything. Then there are drivers who drive because they need to get from A to B, and there are drivers who always want to drive. The latter are the ones who will more than likelygo to training sessions to learn higher levels of driver skills. You don't have to be a petrol head and know a car engine inside out to be a good driver, but being a thoughtfull patient and anticipative driver are all good skillsets to add to learning how to control a car or truck.

 

[NickinFrance]

While this was tragic for those & their families involved, I feel that it was just waiting to happen.
I travelled between Stafford & Torbay & back every weekend for a couple of years & that part of the M5 always frightened me, it was always busy, often misty & the standard of driving between the M4 junction & south of Taunton always seemed abysmal.

It really is about time the Police & authorities stopped blaming everything on speed & started targeting tailgaters & members of the 'Middle Lane Owners Club' but I guess that would cost money.

 

[Parksy]

If my memory serves me well there are road markings on some stretches of carriageway where the M5 passes through the Somerset levels to remind drivers to keep their distance. The markings consist of chevrons and drivers are advised to keep at least 2 chevrons between themselves and the vehicle in front. The stretch of motorway where the tragic incident took place is fairly straight so if a lorry or lorries deviated from the normal straight line this points to not enough stopping distance between vehicles.

It's obvious that there are not enough traffic police but there seem to be Highways Agency patrols so perhaps their vehicles ought to be equipped with evidential cameras to record bad driving, lane hoggers, phone users tailgaters etc so that they could be prosecuted.
The Highways Agency staff wouldn't have to do anything except switch on the camera, the charge, fine and penalty points could be dealt with by post in the way that speeding tickets are.

 

[NickinFrance]

I'm not sure about using 'Highways Agency' Staff, I've only had one encounter with them & came away with the impression that they were 'wannabe' Police Officers who didn't have the intelligence to be real ones.

It's not as simple as ' switch on the camera' some offences need the experience that, IMHO, only a trained Police Officer can give.

These people, like PCSOs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcgdnDOe6uc&feature=player_embedded) are just policing on the cheap but I guess that's what the UK has come to.

 

[Parksy]

How hard can it be? There are cameras mounted on buses in London and evidence from them helps to prosecute those who infringe bus lane byelaws. The same technology could be applied to tailgaters, mobile phone users etc.
I'd agree that fully trained police officers would be preferable but if the thought of being caught on camera at any given moment deters tailgaters, mobile phone users, lane hoggers and dangerous drivers then I wouldn't care who did the filming, the video evidence could be reviewed later by those with better training in order to decide whether or not to issue a fixed penalty notice.
I'd go so far as to say that a fully trained police officer may be over qualified for the purpose of nicking bad motorists, I'd rather they were out being the 'organ grinder' doing real police work such as catching thieves, druggies, muggers and rapists while the Highways Agency or PCSO's were the 'monkeys' filming motorists who deserve a ticket and penalty points.

 

[Dustydog]

Spot on there roger. I have been trained in IAM and ROSPA safe driving standards. Had I not of been, there would of been a dozen cars in Hereford without a drivers door. Thats because of idiots who swing the door wide open without looking.
Like Parkesy I have got Motorcycle and LGV 1 (HGV 1) to my credit and I also drive deffencively. One of the biggest pay backs to that style of driving is dammed good fuel economy and a very long life of tyres, brake pads and clutch plates. I've towed low loaders up to 60 ton gross and shifted some pretty big volvo dump trucks as used in the open cast mining industry. Keeping a load like that moving smoothly and stopping without burning the brakes out is a skill.

Unfortunately today people are spoilt by esp, abs, and power assisted everything. Then there are drivers who drive because they need to get from A to B, and there are drivers who always want to drive. The latter are the ones who will more than likelygo to training sessions to learn higher levels of driver skills. You don't have to be a petrol head and know a car engine inside out to be a good driver, but being a thoughtfull patient and anticipative driver are all good skillsets to add to learning how to control a car or truck.

Couldn't agree more Steve.
When the kids were very young I had a near miss , my fault. I went for the IAM training and test and went onto to be an Observer and helped others.
Same on the motorbike. Not many drivers today could give you a running commentary . That's a shame because it's all about awareness and near, middle and distance observation.
Tailgaters and rubber neckers should be locked up.
In truth the fundemental problem with poor driving standards is the totally useless driving test we currently have. Learners are not allowed on the motorway but once they pass they can go straight on there by themselves. I cannot understand how that can be right.

 

[NickinFrance]

There are cameras mounted on buses in London and evidence from them helps to prosecute those who infringe bus lane byelaws.

I've been forced into a bus lane by someone who wanted to be in the same piece of road that I was in, a camera would just see me in the bus lane & issue a ticket, a Police Officer would have seen the circumstances & probably have nicked the pratt who forced me there.

the video evidence could be reviewed later by those with better training in order to decide whether or not to issue a fixed penalty notice.

Nice idea but you & I both know that that wouldn't happen, at least after the next round of cuts.

I'd go so far as to say that a fully trained police officer may be over qualified for the purpose of nicking bad motorists, I'd rather they were out being the 'organ grinder' doing real police work such as catching thieves, druggies, muggers and rapists

Different skill sets, if there is a traffic division, let them be effective.

 

[Surfer]

Investigating a crime and investigating a traffc accident are totally different. In South Africa a policeman would not do any traffic investigation unless it was a rural area or it was a potential court case. Then they worked hand in hand with the Traffic Police.
The various provinces had their own Traffic Police and they were trained to deal with accidents, speeding and all traffic related matters including poor parking. On many occasions if there had been an accident or perhaps traffic lights had gone faulty, there would be a traffic policeman directing traffic. That does not happen in this country. They just let the motorist get on with it whether it creates traffic chaos or not is of no ingterest to them!