Magazine Article - Used Volvos

[WoodlandsCamper]

The Sept edition of the magazine has an article on buying used Volvos 850/S70/V70, which states:

kerbweight 1412kg
towing limit 1600kg

On the right-hand side of the page is "Owners' views" and one owner states the Volvo "tows our 1612kg Bailey like a dream".

Is there a mis-print or is that person happy to tow over the max limit and at 114%.

In the event of an emergency the tail could wag the dog!!

 

[Lutz]

The kerbweight of 1412kg applies to which Volvo 850/S70/V70? With 3 basic models being mentioned, the range of actual kerbweights could be as much as 200kg and we don't know which model the owner in question drives or what its kerbweight is.
But even if it were 1412kg and the towing limit 1600kg, he would not necessarily be illegal because the towing limit is not the total weight of the caravan. If his Bailey has an MTPLM of 1612kg and assuming a noseweight of 75kg, the car is actually only towing 1537kg which is less than the 1600kg limit. Whether that sort of thing is advisable or not is another issue, but so long as he feels able to cope with his outfit, there's no reason to condemn him outright.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The belief that towing at over 100% will cause the tail to wag the dog is ill founded.

If you consider that all cases of where instability has been involved in a motoring incident, or the "tail is wagging the dog" then also consider how many of those incidents occurred with the ratio at over 100%, then what happened to the incidents where the ratio was less than 100%.

The only conclusion is that instability can and does occur with outfits where the towing ratio is well below 100%.

The 100% value is a myth, which like the oft used 85% has no technical basis.

The fact is that instability, and can occur with outfits of almost any towing ratio, its more to do with loading and driving within the capabilities of the outfit and the road conditions, than the weight ratio alone.

Towing any sort of trailer requires heightened awareness of how the outfit is behaving.

 

[Steve L]

John is quite right.

I have towed trailers of max tow capacity for many years and some have been way over the mythical 85% of a vehicle's kerbweight, that is suggested as some sort of a yard stick to a safe tow. For instance I used a Diahatsu F70 SWB commercial 4X4 to tow a fully loaded 3500Kg Ifor Williams goods trailer. The ratio for that one is about 180%.

The key to safer towing is loading the trailer correctly and getting the nose weight within the specification for the car/trailer combination.

VOSA do not count the nose weight as part of the car's load. They weigh car & caravan together. Car on it's own. Caravan on it's own and finally the nose weight of the caravan (trailer). Been there got that shirt on dealing with VOSA checking stations.

I used to tow a caravan that had a Max Gross weight 36 Kgs higher than the car was allowed to tow. All I did was to reduce the weight loaded into the van and put it into the tow car.

 

[RogerL]

VOSA don't just weigh the complete outfit, they also weigh each axle and if any exceed plated limits you'll be in trouble - so the effect of the noseweight on the rear axle will be included.
Discussion of 100% and instability can't ignore the different trailer types and the way that the various masses are distributed - I don't have any trouble towing a well loaded goods trailer at 120% but I'm damned if I'll take even a well loaded caravan at more than 100% - the dynamics are totally different.
Vehicle towing limits have to cover all types of trailer - just because other types are safe at 100+% doesn't mean that caravans will be - the problem is that each outfit combination, including the way it's loaded that day, is unique in it's dynamics and quoting a fixed safe % will always leave open the exceptions.
Given another thread on this forum which warns of the legal implications of helping someone fix their car/caravan, I find it very strange that established contributors seem to be encouraging caravanners to exceed the 100% guideline.
For most newer drivers with only a B licence, the 100% is a legal limit - contributors would do well to remember that most drivers with B+E in the UK have aquired that without ever taking or passing a +E towing test so any advice that over 100% is safe is questionable, from a legal point of view. Arguing that it's just an opinion and not advice could be difficult for contributors who word it as advice on their many postings on a PRACTICAL CARAVAN forum.

 

[Parksy]

Anyone who tows should ensure that they are aware and fully cognisant of the laws which govern all aspects of towing no matter what licence they hold.
Comments which are shown on the forum are in fact defined as 'user generated content' and the administrators of this forum strongly urge those who read this user generated content to check the accuracy and legality of it before following acting upon information imparted by it.
As stated in forum etiquette
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[xtrailman]

VOSA don't just weigh the complete outfit, they also weigh each axle and if any exceed plated limits you'll be in trouble - so the effect of the noseweight on the rear axle will be included.
Discussion of 100% and instability can't ignore the different trailer types and the way that the various masses are distributed - I don't have any trouble towing a well loaded goods trailer at 120% but I'm damned if I'll take even a well loaded caravan at more than 100% - the dynamics are totally different.
Vehicle towing limits have to cover all types of trailer - just because other types are safe at 100+% doesn't mean that caravans will be - the problem is that each outfit combination, including the way it's loaded that day, is unique in it's dynamics and quoting a fixed safe % will always leave open the exceptions.
Given another thread on this forum which warns of the legal implications of helping someone fix their car/caravan, I find it very strange that established contributors seem to be encouraging caravanners to exceed the 100% guideline.
For most newer drivers with only a B licence, the 100% is a legal limit - contributors would do well to remember that most drivers with B+E in the UK have aquired that without ever taking or passing a +E towing test so any advice that over 100% is safe is questionable, from a legal point of view. Arguing that it's just an opinion and not advice could be difficult for contributors who word it as advice on their many postings on a PRACTICAL CARAVAN forum.

well said Rodger.
The twins are for ever banging on about the 85%.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Ray,

I agree with Roger L, that ther is no specific figure that will universally offer a goor or evensafe towing ratio,which is why I do condemn the use of 85%, prefering to suggets keeping the trailer weigh as small as possible.

Who are the twins you refer to?

 

[RogerL]

John - I think you and I are diametrically opposed on this issue.
Too many comments on this, a CARAVAN forum, refer to the legal limits applying to all types of trailer and pay scant or no regard for the fact that caravans are one of the most unstable trailers.
Given the number of overturned caravans featuring on road reports, causing queueing and the number I've seen on my travels I think that any suggestion of altering upwards or abolishing the existing UK caravan towing guidelines is foolhardy.
I totally support the 85% guideline for beginners to caravan towing - I support the up to 100% guideline for experienced caravanners and I support towing up to the vehicle' limit, subject to licence, for other trailers even when this is higher than 100%.
I don't understand your obsession with condemning the 85% guideline for beginners and I think you're being irresponsible even suggesting it on a caravan forum where beginners come and ask for advice.
You and Lutz are very experienced caravanners - no-one's suggesting that the 85% should apply to you

 

[Surfer]

Given the number of overturned caravans featuring on road reports, causing queueing and the number I've seen on my travels I think that any suggestion of altering upwards or abolishing the existing UK caravan towing guidelines is foolhardy.

Can you give a fairly accurate number for the caravans that have oveturned due to the weight ratio? How can you abolish something that has never existed. When I first started towing I was well above the so called guideline, but it was not in this country. At the time there were no speed restrictions on trailers and you never saw an overturned unit. I used common sense and realised that towing at 50mph would be foolhardy bearing in mind that we were using strip roads in Rhodesia.
Modern cars and good motorways give people a false sense of security when it comes to towing as they do not take into account condtions and possible other scenarios. How often have you seen a small car come flying around a bend and you are wondering when it is going to overturn? Only the good design keeps it on the road, not the driver. Many drivers drive by the seat of their pants and are just lucky.

 

[RogerL]

Can you give a fairly accurate number for the caravans that have oveturned due to the weight ratio? How can you abolish something that has never existed.

Only those accidents fully investigated by the police can have a technical cause attributed, and that's only normally where death or life-threatening injuries have occured, thankfully very rare!
The guideline of 85% for beginners to caravanning has been in the NCC Towing Code for some years - so it does exist - the Caravan Club have published a guideline for decades, the actual percentage varying in line with the commonly used definitions of car and caravan weights at the time because that has varied.

 

[Parksy]

Actually Surfer I think that you have made a good point about modern car design but those of us who do in fact drive 'by the seat of our pants', that is to say, those of us who don't rely on self levelling suspension, stability or traction control when towing might be safer because the first signs of snaking or unusual unexpected movement from the caravan could be transferred via the tow hitch and towball to us in the driving seat quite literally 'through the seat of our pants' and not filtered out via modern computer controlled aids.
My towing vehicle is old school and has no modern stability aids, it doesn't have a computer thank God so I rely on my driving experience and road-craft gathered over the years to let me know immediately of any potential departure from my normal safe towing experience.
When I'm travelling down motorways I'm immediately aware of crosswinds, pitching or yawing of the caravan etc and I adjust my speed and / or driving technique accordingly because I drive by the seat of my pants or in other words by what I can feel.

 

[Surfer]

Actually Surfer I think that you have made a good point about modern car design but those of us who do in fact drive 'by the seat of our pants', that is to say, those of us who don't rely on self levelling suspension, stability or traction control when towing might be safer because the first signs of snaking or unusual unexpected movement from the caravan could be transferred via the tow hitch and towball to us in the driving seat quite literally 'through the seat of our pants' and not filtered out via modern computer controlled aids.
My towing vehicle is old school and has no modern stability aids, it doesn't have a computer thank God so I rely on my driving experience and road-craft gathered over the years to let me know immediately of any potential departure from my normal safe towing experience.
When I'm travelling down motorways I'm immediately aware of crosswinds, pitching or yawing of the caravan etc and I adjust my speed and / or driving technique accordingly because I drive by the seat of my pants or in other words by what I can feel.

Perhaps "seat of pants" was a poor reference by me and perhaps driving irresponsibly on luck would sum it up better. I drive listening to the engine and also by the steering wheel feel combined with common sense.

 

[xtrailman]

Actually Surfer I think that you have made a good point about modern car design but those of us who do in fact drive 'by the seat of our pants', that is to say, those of us who don't rely on self levelling suspension, stability or traction control when towing might be safer because the first signs of snaking or unusual unexpected movement from the caravan could be transferred via the tow hitch and towball to us in the driving seat quite literally 'through the seat of our pants' and not filtered out via modern computer controlled aids.
My towing vehicle is old school and has no modern stability aids, it doesn't have a computer thank God so I rely on my driving experience and road-craft gathered over the years to let me know immediately of any potential departure from my normal safe towing experience.
When I'm travelling down motorways I'm immediately aware of crosswinds, pitching or yawing of the caravan etc and I adjust my speed and / or driving technique accordingly because I drive by the seat of my pants or in other words by what I can feel.

Parksy
I think you are being very foolish not embracing modern driving and towing aids. And i suspect your car will be fitted with a processor/ECU
My only snake took place towing with no stabilizer, i wouldn't consider towing with out one. Although i realize it wouldn't prevent a snake, it should certainly help restore stability, same with the ATC.
My latest caravan has ATC, shockers, and AKS, along with the wheels balanced,unfortunatly the braking system is still 1930's based.
While the car has ABS, and ESP. Seat belts and airbags, all these i see as steps forward in safety.

I practically rebuilt a MK1 Cortina when i was a youngster, so have enough knowledge to understand what's happening when i'm driving.

So if you like i drive by the seat of my pants, but still embrace the available driving aids

 

[Parksy]

Hi Ray
My towcar definitely isn't fitted with a processor or an ECU, it's all done via cams and pulleys

I'm not against these stability aids as such, the caravan has an AlKo stabiliser, the car has anti lock brakes and I check the tyre pressures and maintain the car etc; but I choose to tow with an older 4x4 because they are ultra reliable, relatively cheap to repair and I can carry out my own servicing.
I've spoken to two unfortunates who have experienced loss of stability when towing caravans both of which resulted in total losses of towcars and caravans and what struck me was that neither were overloaded or speeding and both had no clue about what was about to happen to them. Both had relatively new (compared to mine) modern 4x4s with air suspension and other stability aids and I couldn't help wondering whether either of them would have 'felt' things starting to go wrong in time to take corrective action if they'd have been in an old Mitsubishi Pajero like mine.
I can't know for certain because I've never towed our caravan with an up to date 4x4 so I could be barking up the wrong tree altogether, if traction control or some other electronic stability programme operated automatically would this override the slight feeling of instability that can give the first hint of a potential snake until it was too late to back off the throttle, slow down and avoid the problem?

 

[xtrailman]

Parksy
I understand what you are saying, time was when i could literally stand inside along side a engine and wing!
And could and did tackle any job diy.
Today i don't do anything for fear of causing expensive damage, and change cars under 5 years for the same reason.
Repair costs can be more than the cars worth!
You are obviously diy capable which i think leads to a more aware driver, my wife for example wouldn't have a clue how the clutch works, she knows how to use it but thats it.
I think the concept of ATC is good, but is yet another device to maintain, but if it works as it should, then i think every caravan should have it fitted.

 

[ProfJohnL]

John - I think you and I are diametrically opposed on this issue.

I don't understand your obsession with condemning the 85% guideline for beginners and I think you're being irresponsible even suggesting it on a caravan forum where beginners come and ask for advice.

Hello Roger,
I don't think we are so far apart as I have had to reiterate on several occasions because some readers do not seem to read my posts, I am all for keeping the trailer weight as small as possible, Its just that I cannot recommend 85% as being the ideal or universal safety margin. There is no evidence that shows 0.85 as being the bestuniversal figure, as you and I both know that no two outfits will have the same stability characteristics.

This in no way should be taken to imply that you should aim to tow at 100% or over, but it is a fact that it is possible to legally consider such a situation, subject to the cars specification and the drivers licence.

I have no disagreement with anyone who chooses to use 85% provided it has been a considered selection with due regard for all the other critical factors that affect stability. But to choose it through the brainwashing the industry seems carry out with the exclusion of all other factors is fundamentally wrong.

For beginners (or old salts), it is sensible to keep the weight/mass of the trailer as small as possible, however experience may allow some drivers to 'feel' the way an outfit handles, and they may then feel they can increase the ratio.

 

[Sedo]

Sometimes I just can't understand why this same old chestnut starts and everyone piles in.
The 85% is, yes a guide and as most people would agree there are many other areas to address when towing.
What I can't understand, having spent many years in engineering repairing machinery, is why people constantly want to argue against safety margins, and before anyone starts, no, I'm not an elf and safety freak, in fact far from it.
Many times I've seen things that can't go wrong, go wrong and accidents occur.
Surely it's better more on the safety side of the fence.
One can play with figures til the cows come home, but it's a lot easier and safer just to sit well within any safety limits and not just caravanning.
I'm a fan of modern cars, they're more reliable, better made, more efficient and safer as a rule, wished I could afford one.
No I don't really like it when the computer takes over but sometimes it works.
The only thing that worries me is, and I witnessed this on industrial machinery, when too many safety aids are fitted, people stop using their brains and aquired skills and accidents happen.
I notice there's an example qouted lately in the press to do with pilots relying on their in flight computers too much.
I also remember years ago reading it was noted accidents increased in Germany in cars with more safety features fitted.
People apparently felt safer relying on these aids and therefore were less aware.
So why not use common sense combined with experience, and for those without the experience take advice and try to stay as far with advised limits. Far, far safer to err on the side of safety.
With a caravan on the back you've a really wonderful surface area for side winds, ask anyone who's tried carrying a big sheet of board in winds what it's like.
No matter how experienced one is having forces like that and it's a Jack Russell with a Retrievers tail being swung around.

 

[Lutz]

Of course, erring on the safe side is to be highly recommended. But what is safe and under what conditions? The advice that has been published by various sources has no verifiable basis so it does seem legitimate to question its validity.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Sedo

You make some very poignant points, and yes I fully agree that you should operate a caravan outfit within its capability, otherwise its out of control.

At the risk of being accused of having the same mother as Lutz, the difficulty is that no one has a reliable and non destructive method of establishing what the safe limit is. The only scientifically proven limit is the manufacturer's stated towed mass limit, which is not a universally fixed proportion of the towing vehicles mass. This means the widely used arbitrary 85% bears no relation to proven values, and in fact also bears no real relation to the actual outfit to which it is applied, as neither the car or caravan will be the masses the calculation uses.

The common phrase applied to towing "The tail wags the dog" is not true analogy, as the motions and freedoms of movement of an outfit are not that simple. This common misconception where the car is heavier than the trailer, the trailer will not move or control the car. This contention has to be discounted, as many instability incidents meet these conditions.

This is just another example of how dangerous 'common sense' is.

All towing requires great care, but caravans do represent one of the most difficult matching issues. Their relatively low density resulting in large surface areas makes them more susceptible to external forces so that aspect must be considered as part of the matching considerations.

There are some aids to towing, and recent revelations have called the effectiveness of some as being limited when they are most needed. Further thinking and development on ways to help manage stability is also needed.

There is a definite need for more work to be done to produce an easily applied process that will help trailer users establish safer towing matches.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi to you all out there. Just for the record and to demonstrate how far out the Data Bases can be,Not least of all the Towsafe Data Base for my 1997 Volvo V70 T5 CD Auto. I have had 5 different kerbweights attributed to that one very specific car,non were correct. The most laughable was 1360kgs the nearest was 1434kgs and both allegedly to to 90% full tank,68kgs driver & 7kgs of luggage.
The car actually weighs 1638kgs.It has a maximum braked towing weight of 1600kgs and tows at 97.5% very comfortably.
I also have a 2000 (W) 2.4T Geartronic that weighs in at 1725kgs.It has a maximum braked towing weight of 1800kgs. With the same caravan on the back as the T5 pulls it is loaded a little more and tows at 95%,the Geartronic box is a dream.

 

[Surfer]

Regarding safety aids etc in cars, didn't Landrover have a problem at one time with their self levelling suspension? It could not cope with numerous fluctuations in a short space of time, i.e. caravan nose lifts and then drops, lifts and drops etc but if this goes out of sequence, the self leveling compenstates too late causing a snake due to instability. Not exactly sure of the details but if I remember correctly, it took a court case to bring it to light