Miss - Match???

[ProfAlGoogle]

Hi all, just back from our jolly's down in Devon, second week a couple arrived towing a Bailey Senator S6 Indiana, motor mover,full size Isabela awning two bikes, table, chairs and all the usual parafanalia that you take on holiday.
the tug on the front was a 2010 Vauxhall Astra SE CDTI 1686 Turbo Diesel, I would think at around 108 BHP, surely this could not be a safe match? Out of curiousety and being a little concerned in case he was a novice I asked how it performed on the road, he's reply was to tell me it towed superb with no problems and they had recently upgraded from a Bailey Ranger, so obviously not new comers to the world of caravaning! Surely this would have been an illegal match with the Senator having an MIRO of 1259 and an MTPLM of 1495.
Your thoughts.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Prof Al,

Lets leave the issue of safety just at the side for a moment, and look at the legality of an outfits weights.

I have searched various data bases and it seems the model of Astra you refer to has a ULW of about 1600Kg and a maximum braked towed weight limit of 1400Kg . The Bailey Indiana has an MIRO of 1264Kg and and MTPLM of 1500Kg.

So given those values the caravan is withing the cars towing capability and will have a conventional of 93% So there is nothing illegal about the weights.

Power to weight ratio's are always a touchy subject for some forum members. Many years ago there was another generalised recommendation that you needed to have about 40Bhp/tonne, but that was when most cars used petrol engines. These days there are far more diesels about, and their characteristic of lots of torque at low revs means that you can get away with as little as 30Bhp/tonne and still have respectable towing performance.

Now what I don't know is what the GVW of the Astra is, this might become important if the driver doesn't have B+e. If its over 2000Kg, as that would take the outfit to over 3500Kg, and then they would be over their licence entitlement.

Technically the car is capable of towing a trailer of that weight, whether its wise to or not is dependent on a number of factors for which we don't have the answers, but suffice to say that the outfit may not be recommended for novice tow-ers, but for more experienced tow-ers its a legal match with some spare weight capacity.

Now Safety, That almost certainly down to the capability of the driver to drive sensibly.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Hello john, this is what I have found on the caravan club matching service.

The Club advises that a Vauxhall Astra SE 1.7CDTi 16v (110PS) (2010) should not tow a Bailey Senator Series 6 Indiana (2009)

• 
  Kerbweight ratio: 103%
• The caravan's laden weight is more than the car's kerb weight. There is significant risk of stability problems, especially at higher speed. The Police may consider this combination unroadworthy, and it is illegal for drivers with a standard car licence issued since 1st January 1997.
• 
  Towing limit ratio: 107%
• The caravan's laden weight is over the car's towing limit, which the Police may consider unroadworthy and which may invalidate the car’s insurance. It is not usually practical to lightly load the caravan to mitigate this issue.
• 
  Gross train weight ratio: 103%
• The sum of the car and the caravan’s fully laden weights exceeds the car’s gross train weight. There is significant risk of the car’s GTW being exceeded in use, which would be illegal, and thus this combination is not recommended.
• 
  Nose weight ratio: 133%
• The car's nose weight should be fine to safely tow this caravan. If this figure is high, however, (typically over 100%) care will be needed to load the caravan so that the car’s nose weight limit is not exceeded, but this should be practically achievable. Aim for 5-7% of the caravan’s actual laden weight without overloading the car.
• 
  BHP per ton : 34
• The car's engine power is quite low to tow this caravan. It may be sluggish and uncomfortable on hills or at junctions.

 

[SteveW77]

You can't rely on the information given on these sites, I have never seen the "Mass in Service" weight of my Sorento given correctly, They can give a weight of up to 200kg lighter than that shown on my V5.

Steve W

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Quite agree with you Steve, but it is quite a heavy caravan and considering all the kit they had brought with them, not a combination I would be happy with.

regards, Allan.

 

[Lutz]

As for the kerbweight ratio, there is no legal requirement any more so it would not be illegal to tow on those grounds, despite what the club matching service says. Their information is out of date.
The towing weight would be slightly over the limit if the caravan is fully laden right up to its MTPLM. However, if the MTPLM is 1500kg the owner would only have to stay at least 25kg below that limit in order to be within the towload limit specified by the car manufacturer (if full use of the allowable 75kg noseweight is made)
As far as I have been able to establish, the max. GVW of the Astra in question is 1750kg (1830kg if it's an estate car). Add to that the maximum legal towload of 1400kg and the gross train weight will be 3150kg or 3230kg, respectively. So, so long as the towload is not exceeded, he would still be legal with a Category B licence, too.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Fully agree with what you are saying Lutz, but considering there was the motor mover, full Isabela awning, cadac ect all stowed in the caravan, I feel fairly sure he would have been very close to the MTPLM of the caravan @ 1500kg, and that would have been in excess of the Astra's 1400kg maximum tow limit, allowing for 75kg nose weight could still possibly but him 25kg the wrong side of the law, and render he's insurgence null and void.
i have the same model van but the California and I run fairly close to it's max MTPLM and I would not want to to tow it with an Astra, always best to have a little in reserve.
Regards, Allan.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Prof Al

I have post on many occasions that you cannot trust the data that matching sites use, and by the same token even the data base I use could be in error, however I took the caravan weights from the manufacturers web site, and the car data from a site that claims to use manufactures data.

The method and logic I used is correct, but because the source data may be wrong the outcome is may be wrong.

Now I know that Lutz has access to information concerning Vauxhall/Opel cars, so I trust his figures more so than those I found.

So the weights are debatable for this outfit. But I must stress that despite your assumptions, we don't know what the caravan actually weighed so we don't know if it is over weight or not.

Now I am left wondering why are you taking such a keen interest in this outfit? Why is it so important to you?

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Hello again John, why such interest? Mainly it is the same model van as I have, and I am a bit of a stickler for weight etc, we use an Isabela magnum porch awning, I have a motor mover fitted, and when used for holidays I am just within the max MTPLM of my caravan, and in my opinion this chap was sailing very close to the wind.
Dont get me wrong in over fourty years of enjoying our hobby on occasions I have been close to towing at 100% it's feasible but not enjoyable. At present I use a P3 Volvo V70 D5 producing over 200 BHP, and on some of the hills around Devon I was fully aware of the lump on the back.
on paper the Astra may be okay, but it could be a totally different story if things take a turn for the worse with very little if any in reserve. As Lutz has stated the maximum tow load for that model is 1400kg, and allowing 75kg nose load at max MTPLM for the caravan would put it 25kg the wrong side of the law. In my opinion the Senator is a heavy caravan requiring a heavy tow car.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

I have searched various data bases and it seems the model of Astra you refer [2010 Vauxhall Astra SE CDTI 1686 Turbo Diesel] to has a ULW of about 1600Kg and a maximum braked towed weight limit of 1400Kg . The Bailey Indiana has an MIRO of 1264Kg and and MTPLM of 1500Kg.

Prof
I'm not sure where you got that weight from for an Astra (1600kg) as my Vectra 1.9 CDTI turbo diesel only has a V5 mass in service of 1503kg and a Vectra is bigger and heavier than an Astra.

I would have expected an Astra to be in the region of 1450kg. I have looked because I intend downgrading the towcar car to an Astra next year when I retire and will still be pulling our Lunar at 1210kg.

 

[Surfer]

I would hazard a guess and say that more than likely they are exceeding the gross train weight which is about 3255kg and that is what counts. GVW 1855kg and MTPLM of caravan 1500kg equals 3355kg which is higher than gross train weight. This is an offence!

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Proff John has asked why my interest in this outfit, mainly as it is the same as mine, had they been traveling light then perhaps I would not have given it a second thought, but when you throw in a motor mover with power angegment, bikes, full awning, twin gas bottles, to say it worried me a little would be an understatement.
I'm sorry but a tow car with a max towing limit of 1400kg towing a van with a max MTPLM of 1500kg, under holiday conditions with everything but the kitchen sink thrown in is not really ideal, legal or otherwise.

 

[Lutz]

I would hazard a guess and say that more than likely they are exceeding the gross train weight which is about 3255kg and that is what counts. GVW 1855kg and MTPLM of caravan 1500kg equals 3355kg which is higher than gross train weight. This is an offence!

For a start, it is only an offence if the actual weights exceed the plated limits, not the maximum permissible. Secondly, gross train weight is not the sum of the GVW of the towcar and the MTPLM of the caravan.

 

[seth1]

Some of those late Astras with the Isuzu 1.7cdti are 130hp and a good dose of torque to go with it.Diesel car mag lists them at 221 lbs ft.Thats as much as the highest powered older shape sharran/galaxy/Alhambra had.A lower powered engine can easily be driven around.Perhaps he doesnt mind crawling up hills.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Hi Seth, this particular model had the 108 bhp engine fitted, so yes it must have been a struggle on some of the hills, and with all the kit they had with them the van would have been over the max tow weight of 1400kg, so yes, not legal. Had I have passed the combination on the road I would not have made that assumption, but being on the next pitch to me and seeing first hand the amount of kit with them in comparison to my own same model van it spoke for it's self.

 

[seth1]

There must be a hell of alot of outfits on our roads that are over wieght.I must be honest for years i was over on the nose wieght,but it always looked fine,handled fine and in 5 years never had a problem.Saying that ive always made sure ive had more than enough power though.

 

[johnandrew70]

My van has a mtplm of 1500kg and i tow with a passat estate with a 2.0 140bhp engine, i wouldnt want to tow it with anything less than that as i feel as though the passat is on the limit as it is.

 

[seth1]

On the limit in which way?As for regarding power i understand your thinking,but in reality it doesnt seem to work that way.Taking this case for example the astra has 108 bhp but because of that it may be on lower gearing.In my case my previous vehicle had 140hp,the replacement has 210hp plus the factory upgrade which takes it to 240hp.From were im sat it doesnt perform 100hp better than the last one and infact it gets wasted with the ultra high gearing.(60mph@1250rpm)So really its swings and rounderbouts,they give you one thing but take something else off you.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

hi guys,
from reading the posts it seems anything can be justified by statistics and data, but that in practice things are very different, I have towed with some very on the limit units that on paper should have been crap, but were in fact really good and some "others" that were on paper ideal, but turned out to be less than practical.
the unit in question could be quite legal if the van was below its MTPLM, (actual tow load) but I dont think it is one unit I would have considered viable, the reason for this is, I tow with a Meriva same engine and roughly the same weight as the Astra, yet the van is only 1058kg (74%) on paper this should be perfect but the gearing is too high for towing and I allways know the tin box is there as it just wont pull if the revs drop below 2000rpm. if the Astra has the same gearbox, with a 1475kg van attached,,,,,, nah.

 

[johnandrew70]

On the limit in which way?As for regarding power i understand your thinking,but in reality it doesnt seem to work that way.Taking this case for example the astra has 108 bhp but because of that it may be on lower gearing.In my case my previous vehicle had 140hp,the replacement has 210hp plus the factory upgrade which takes it to 240hp.From were im sat it doesnt perform 100hp better than the last one and infact it gets wasted with the ultra high gearing.(60mph@1250rpm)So really its swings and rounderbouts,they give you one thing but take something else off you.

Power wise its fine, need to drop down a cog or 2 on some hills, but i mean the weight when i say on the limit, You could deffo feel that the van is in charge especially when some lorries pass you in windy conditions making the unit wobble and snake thus pulling the car about a bit. it was fine at 50mph anything over that and i really didnt like the feeling i was getting when its not so windy its fine.
I think i would feel better if there was a bit more weight to the tow car to keep the van in tow

.