MTLPM 9 kg heavier than vehicle tow allowance

[rcpilot]

My meaning was( I missed out 2 words) the MTPLM is the weight the caravan can be by law but can be altered.
Also the weight of your caravan is law, breaking it whilst towing is nullifying your cars insurance no insurance is a criminal offence punishable by the police as they see fit sometimes to the confiscation and crushing of your vehicle by which your caravan is if it connected to your car.

 

[Plodd]

no insurance is a criminal offence punishable by the police as they see fit sometimes to the confiscation and crushing of your vehicle by which your caravan is if it connected to your car.

The crushing of your vehicle only happens if you don't get insurance and pay the fees to reclaim your vehicle. The vehicle isn't crushed as a punishment.

 

[ProfJohnL]

A simple way to look at is, there are 3 weights involved with caravans
1:- MIRO this is the weight of the caravan as it leaves the factory.
2:- MTPLM this is the total weight that the caravan can be and includes the MIRO, the payload(what you put in the caravan) and the noseweight
3 :- the Noseweight this is the weight that your car bears when hitching up.
If your car has a maximum towing weight the MTPLM must not exceed it but the MTPLM can be altered.
It is altered by simply removing part of your payload and putting it in the car. or removing it alltogether
If your caravan is heavier than the MTPLM the boys in blue can do a few things, if it is just over they can tell you to put some of the items in your car but remember the total weight of the car and caravan must not exceed the gross train weight.
They can give you a ticket or they can confiscate your caravan and crush it but you probably will not get stopped if the caravan looks level when towing and you are not involved in an accident, I have seen some outfits where it looks as though it's back has been broken a "V" shape in the middle.

Hello RC,
Some of your post is correct, but you have made the classic mistake of calling a weight limit a weight, and that is fundamentally wrong. A caravans MTPLM is a weight limit not it's actual weight.

In your point 3, you car's towed weight limit does not define the MTPLM of the trailer for two reasons, because the MTPLM is th maximum weight a trailer is designed to be, crucially including the nose load, which you have already pointed out is born by the car, and thus cannot form part of the towed load. And secondly, because the cars specification sets a maximum towed load that is a weight limit for the car, it does not define the MTPLM of the trailer which can be much bigger as long as the trailers actual only part loaded and it's actual weight is still less than the cars towed load limit.

I know these are technicalities, but it can make a legal difference to some towers.

 

[Parksy]

There is no legal requirement for a caravan to be covered by any insurance policy, it is a separate vehicle to the towing vehicle and could not be confiscated by police for having no insurance.
There would be a scenario whereby the police could impound a caravan if the removal of a towing vehicle caused the caravan to create a hazard but the most likely outcome of police action for overloading would be a fixed penalty and possible prohibition of movement.

 

[rcpilot]

You must inform your insurance that you do tow a caravan, otherwise they can and at their discretion refuse to pay out any arising claims.
Lets say you driving along in your little car towing your little caravan with everything above board and say your caravan hits an oil patch swerves and hits another car which insurance pays for the third party damages, your cars, and if the caravan was overweight again it would be the vehicle to which it was attached and the insurance company can and do wriggle out of paying claims for even the smallest reasons so the whole outfit has no insurance, also if your vehicle has no insurance going and getting it does not cover it for when the misdemeaner happened insurance is not back dateable so the law can and do what is required to the extent of getting vehicles crushed.

 

[rcpilot]

The MIRO is the weight of the caravan as it leaves the factory and does include the noseweight because I have one of those CWC units and it does add up the noseweight and the individual weight on each wheel to give the total weight of the caravan, the MTPLM is the MIRO plus the payload which in my case is 155kg the MTPLM is 1485kg the MIRO is 1330kg, I don't think the police would subtract the noseweight from the MTPLM to get the weight of the caravan, some people actually tow caravans that have a noseweight well above what is stipulated in the cars specs, so you could say that if that was the case then their MTPLM minus the noseweight would be well below the allowed towing weight.

 

[Plodd]

so the whole outfit has no insurance, also if your vehicle has no insurance going and getting it does not cover it for when the misdemeaner happened insurance is not back dateable so the law can and do what is required to the extent of getting vehicles crushed.

Your insurance would still pay out for third party claims. They may then try to claim it back from you if offences were revealed but they MUST by law cover third party claims.
The vehicle (car) can be towed if uninsured but will be returned once it has been insured and the recovery cost is paid. The penalty for no insurance is a fixed penalty or court imposed fine plus points on your licence NOT having your vehicle crushed. As has been said above you do not have to have insirance for your caravan.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The MIRO is the weight of the caravan as it leaves the factory and does include the noseweight because I have one of those CWC units and it does add up the noseweight and the individual weight on each wheel to give the total weight of the caravan, the MTPLM is the MIRO plus the payload which in my case is 155kg the MTPLM is 1485kg the MIRO is 1330kg, I don't think the police would subtract the noseweight from the MTPLM to get the weight of the caravan, some people actually tow caravans that have a noseweight well above what is stipulated in the cars specs, so you could say that if that was the case then their MTPLM minus the noseweight would be well below the allowed towing weight.

Hello RC
Yet again you have mixed up the difference between a weights and weight limits and giving inaccurate information. The difference is important:

A Payload is variable weight, and it should not exceed the payload margin, which is a limit..
The MIRO is an estimate of the unladen weight (unless it has been measured) but as such it cannot be relied on to be accurate. Whilst in theory MIRO + Payload Margin should = MTPLM, but that depends on the accuracy of the MIRO. However it is the drivers responsibility to ensure that regardless of the accuracy of the MIRO the total weight of the trailer including payload does not exceed its MTPLM. This could mean that the Payload cannot reach the theoretical payload margin if the MIRO is estimated to low.

I assume a CWC refers to a Reich Caravan Weight Control device. If that is so then please explain how you measure nose load which does not make contact with the road directly.

With regards to being stopped for an over load the offence cannot be sustained without measured evidence, consequently it is not just based on looking at the data plates, but it has to be a measured value which is compared to the data plate. So it is perfectly legal for a car to tow a trailers whose MTPLM exceeds the vehicles towed weight limit, provided it is part loaded and it when its axles are measured fall under the towed weight limit. This process automatically removes the trailers nose load from the axle weight measurement , and transfers it to the cars load.

By comparison Driving Licence entitlements are generally related to MAMs not measured weights.

If drivers set up an outfit with an nose load exceeding vehicle limits they are committing an offence, and that can be checked by the authorities, by repeating the tow vehicle measurement with the trailer uncoupled. The difference is the trailers nose load.

 

[Parksy]

Vehicles would only be crushed if they were not collected from the police impounding area upon payment of the appropriate fee and production of a valid car insurance policy.
I'd agree that caravanners certainly need to inform their insurance provider that they tow a caravan and also about any modifications such as a towbar, spring assistors, engine remapping etc.
The police don't randomly swoop on caravanners to crush their caravans however, have you any evidence to suggest that this happens because I've never seen forum postsings on any caravan related internet resource or news stories about these caravan crushing scenarios? :dry: