MTLPM 9 kg heavier than vehicle tow allowance

[Steviedee1]

Hi,
I own a Bailey Pageant series 5 Bretagne which is plated at a MTLPM of 1409kg. The tow car we previously used a Kia Sorento is no longer available to us and we have a 2016 Audi A4 avant tdi sport with a maximum braked tow weight of 1400. The towing match services show it as a good match other than it is 9kg over and therefore illegal.
I was wondering if anyone had expereince of having a caravan replated by the manufacture to show a reduced MTLPM e.g by 9kg to bring it down to the required level. I have read and see on the Bailey site that you can up grade MTLPM weight limits for a fee etc but cannot find any mention of down grading.
I have emailed Bailey however I would appreciate your advice and Experience.
Thanks

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

I've never known people to down-plate. Generally the van is already at a lower level to make it more available to lighter cars, hence upgrading only.

 

[Damian]

Caravans are normally plated at their lowest figure to start with.
It has never been known for any maker to downgrade their MTPLM figure.

 

[LizziePope]

Hi Steviedee1. Welcome to the Practical Caravan forum and thank you for the question.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hi,
I own a Bailey Pageant series 5 Bretagne which is plated at a MTLPM of 1409kg. The tow car we previously used a Kia Sorento is no longer available to us and we have a 2016 Audi A4 avant tdi sport with a maximum braked tow weight of 1400. The towing match services show it as a good match other than it is 9kg over and therefore illegal.
I was wondering if anyone had expereince of having a caravan replated by the manufacture to show a reduced MTLPM e.g by 9kg to bring it down to the required level. I have read and see on the Bailey site that you can up grade MTLPM weight limits for a fee etc but cannot find any mention of down grading.
I have emailed Bailey however I would appreciate your advice and Experience.
Thanks

Hello Steviedee,

All may not be lost but please read on because its a complex issue:-.

The specification of the car states the towed weight limit is 1400kg. But this is not what you have assumed it means. The towed weight is only what is carried by a trailers road wheels, it does not include the trailers nose load!

As your caravan has an MTPLM of 1409Kg using the 5 to 7% guidance for nose load which gives a range of 70 to 98kg means the weight carried by the trailer wheels will be no more than 1339kg. This is within your cars towed weight limit of 1400kg.

Having given you some what seems to be good news, I must raise a note of caution. I have not looked up the details of your car, but generally VAG group cars do have a generous towed weight limit which is usually more than the cars unladen weight this means the towing ratio (Caravans MTPLM / Cars Unladen weight) is more than likely to be over 100%. This suggests your proposed outfit is well outside the industries guidelines which is a considerable increased danger.

 

[Woodentop]

I suspect there is some misunderstanding here.

First what is the kerb weight (equivalent to caravan MRO) of the A4? You will find this on the plate at the bottom of the passenger side B pillar (pillar between front and back doors.) We have a Passat estate TDi and that is 1552Kg so I would be surprised if the A4 is much less. It is this weight that the 85% (so-called) rule applies to.

As far as I can find the maximum braked towing weight is somewhere between 1600 and 2000Kg depending where you look. Again my Passat is 1800Kg and I would not expect the A4 to be much different.

Noseweight is dependent upon the towbar. If you have a Westfalia then the bar limit is 90Kg unless the chassis limit is less. Given that the same floor pan is used for all VAG models in that range I would doubt yours would be different - mine is 90Kg.

If you want a definite answer call Audi Customer Service - it will probably be the same place as VW in Sheffield and they will answer all your questions. 0800 699 888

 

[Steviedee1]

Thank you for all your help. Looking on my V5C the mass in service of my vehicle is shown as 1555kg the vin plate showing a weight of 3580 kg which I understand is the laden weight of the car 2100 plus the mtplm of any trailer which means 3580-2100=1480 which has confused me as I assumed this figure would be a basic addition of max perm mass of the veh plus mtplm of the trailer which could be pulled namely 1400 so is the additional 80kg mass on the towball. Fair to say I am now confused!

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

First what is the kerb weight (equivalent to caravan MRO) of the A4? You will find this on the plate at the bottom of the passenger side B pillar (pillar between front and back doors.)

NO - the kerb weight is NOT shown on the weight plate. The figures given are:

Gross car weight
Gross Train weight
Gross Front axle load
Gross Rear axle load

 

[Steviedee1]

Ok I have now consulted the Audi technical data in my handbook.
It shows the following for my manual gear box 2.0 tdi a4 avant
Kerb weight 1550
Gross vehicle weight 2095
Gross vehicle weight when towing 2175
Braked trailer gradients up to 8% 1900
Braked trailer gradients up to 12% 1700
Weight of vehicle and trailer on gradients up to 12% 3875
Draw bar loading not to exceed 80kg.
Therefore on the above weights the 1409kg MTPLM of the caravan is ok for my vehicle.
Why is it then the V5C shows a braked weight of 1400kg and the Vin plate shows a gross train weight of 3580 differing from the technical data? 3 sources of data each slightly different!

 

[ProfJohnL]

... the vin plate showing a weight of 3580 kg which I understand is the laden weight of the car 2100 plus the mtplm of any trailer which means 3580-2100=1480 which has confused me as I assumed this figure would be a basic addition of max perm mass of the veh plus mtplm of the trailer which could be pulled namely 1400 so is the additional 80kg mass on the towball. Fair to say I am now confused!

NO! its not.!!!
The difference between the GTW and GVW which you tell us is 1480kg is the maximum weight of trailer your car is legally permitted to tow. That figure is the limit for the car, and does not define the MTPLM of the trailer. You could have a trailer with an MTPLM of 2000kg, but only part load it so its actual weight does not exceed 1480kg and still tow it.

The MTPLM of a trailer is the LIMIT to the total all up weight a trailer is permitted to be. So Nose load plus wheel ( or Axle Load) added together must not exceed the MTPLM, But when hitched the nose load is carried by the the car , the car only tows the axle load.

You would be legally safe if you chose a trailer whose MTPLM fell within the cars towed weight limit but the cars towed weight limit does not define the MTPLM you must choose.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

absolutely spot on prof, you are looking and assuming the wrong figures, the MTPLM is the theoretical maximum weight of the van, not the actual van weight, the figures for the maximum tow load, ie, weight of trailer minus noseweight has nothing at all to do with the maximum weight it is possible to load the van to.

look at it this way, if the MTPLM was absolute as the way of deciding the true weight it would be illegal to tow say a boat trailer or car transporter completely empty [without a load] if that trailer COULD carry more weight than was allowed for the car that towed it.

 

[Dustydog]

For the anoraks who have been watching the PC TV show David Motton on his tug test drives always quotes the caravans MRO . B) Never heard him mention the MTPLM on these tests.

 

[pitpony]

I think the caravan industry just do what they want to sell caravans, just the same with the motor industry, how can a vehicle manufacturer produce an heavier model of the same SUV and give it a 400kg heavier braked towing weight and then put a smaller engine in the vehicle which is 20hp less just to keep the green brigade happy,

 

[ProfJohnL]

I think the caravan industry just do what they want to sell caravans, just the same with the motor industry, how can a vehicle manufacturer produce an heavier model of the same SUV and give it a 400kg heavier braked towing weight and then put a smaller engine in the vehicle which is 20hp less just to keep the green brigade happy,

I'm sorry Pitpony, Caravan manufacturers can set an MTPLM to make the caravan as attractive as possible to a target group of buyers.

But the car industry cannot just slap figures on a vehicle, One of the good things the EU did was to enforce the Whole Vehicle Type Approval system, which sets out a range of tests that each model of car has to go through to determine maximum towed weight figures. Unless they have cheated the values they specify are based on the results of the EU required test regime.

Don't forget that whilst an engine may be quoted as having a certain HP, that does not represent the power and torque available at the road wheels. The gearbox ratio's can make a dramatic difference to the towing ability of a vehicle.

 

[00buzz]

I have recently seen a number of new buccaneer caravans (mtplm 1900ish) being towed by vw tiguan vehicles with a kerb weight of around 1688kg. towing capacity is given as 2200kg..... hmy: ....appeared to be towing ok though

 

[NigelHutson]

For the anoraks who have been watching the PC TV show David Motton on his tug test drives always quotes the caravans MRO . B) Never heard him mention the MTPLM on these tests.

Hi Dusty,

The reason that Motty only quotes MRO is because the caravans used for the tow car tests are borrowed from a dealership, and are therefore pretty much in MRO state (almost empty save for a step and mains cable etc). The caravans MRO is as near to the 85% figure as possible for the purposes of the tow car test.

Nigel

 

[ProfJohnL]

For the anoraks who have been watching the PC TV show David Motton on his tug test drives always quotes the caravans MRO . B) Never heard him mention the MTPLM on these tests.

Hello Dusty,
Nigel has given the reason why Motty does not refer to the MTPLM, As far as the test car is concerned all it's being asked to haul a caravan sized trailer whose mass ratio is about 85%. All the car sees is a trailer whose mass is about 85% of ULM and that it presents a windage load typical of a caravan. It doesn't care if its an empty caravan or a loaded caravan provided the all up mass is about 85%.

In reality there could be some difference to the handling of the outfit, as an empty caravan with an MRO of 85% is likely to be slightly longer than a caravan with an MTPLM of 85% Whilst the mass will be the same, the size and thus the loading characteristics will be slightly different. BUT these differences will be small, and probably not much different to the effect of towing a caravan with a different internal layout.

You must also bear in mind that whilst Motty does have a wealth of experience and many will value his reports, his reports are only based on his experience, and other people may have an equally valid alternative perspective about the same vehicle or caravan.

 

[NigelHutson]

I quite agree John. In my experience, caravans always tow better with a bit of a load, and indeed, some empty ones are absolute pigs! The ones that we use at the Tow Car Awards that are ballasted are generally superb to tow. The car makes the difference there. Great caravan plus great car equals a very relaxed tow. For instance, I remember a few years ago at the Tow Car Awards, when it was my turn to test the Jaguar XF, it was throwing it down with rain and blowing a gale. However, the car was so sublime, I could concentrate more on the Shostakovich Piano Concerto that was playing on the radio than having to control the car (it was on test tracks, but naughty I accept!). Conversely, there have been some cars with the same caravan that are a real handful in perfect weather conditions!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Nigel,

I can wholly agree about the variations in caravan towing characteristics from empty to properly loaded. That is why I used to carry 4 collapsible 10Litre bottles and various straps and bungees with me when collecting unladen caravans so I could use them to ballast for the correct nose load (Don't start me again on nose load)

I am also very much aware that a caravan that towed impeccably behind a Renault Espace with a 50Kg was quite a handful behind a Vauxhall Carlton until it was ballasted to 70Kg nose load. So nothing can be taken as gospel.

 

[Dustydog]

For the anoraks who have been watching the PC TV show David Motton on his tug test drives always quotes the caravans MRO . B) Never heard him mention the MTPLM on these tests.

Hi Dusty,

The reason that Motty only quotes MRO is because the caravans used for the tow car tests are borrowed from a dealership, and are therefore pretty much in MRO state (almost empty save for a step and mains cable etc). The caravans MRO is as near to the 85% figure as possible for the purposes of the tow car test.

Nigel

Hi Nigel

Many thanks for that. Now I understand the logic.
I was very impressed with David's report on the Skoda Superb Estate and tthe way it handled the slalom test.
Equally I a precise your comment on the tow car of the year where the caravans are suitably ballasted.
I can say with confidence I hate the first tow home with a new caravan which is empty and tends to be nose heavy. Don't panic Prof . I do check it at the dealers

 

[Raywood]

I have recently seen a number of new buccaneer caravans (mtplm 1900ish) being towed by vw tiguan vehicles with a kerb weight of around 1688kg. towing capacity is given as 2200kg..... hmy: ....appeared to be towing ok though

It is when things go wrong or there are strong winds that the weight problems can show up and certainly the combination is not advisable. I would say that if there was a problem the car is far too light to control the caravan even though it has an excellent reputation as a tow car. That towing capacity has nothing to do with safety and is simply its ability to restart the load on a 12% slope.

 

[RayS]

Gosh ! I for one do not fancy trying to go through this with gendarmes / guardia civil on the roadside ( and probably not with UK police either).

In a way I have a similar problem in that my gross trainweight comes out at 3509kg, but this is not a serious problem if I keep to the lower speed limit in France.

Subsequently : for gross train weight read MAM Towing speed limits in France are reduced above 3500kg.

 

[rcpilot]

A simple way to look at is, there are 3 weights involved with caravans
1:- MIRO this is the weight of the caravan as it leaves the factory.
2:- MTPLM this is the total weight that the caravan can be and includes the MIRO, the payload(what you put in the caravan) and the noseweight
3 :- the Noseweight this is the weight that your car bears when hitching up.
If your car has a maximum towing weight the MTPLM must not exceed it but the MTPLM can be altered.
It is altered by simply removing part of your payload and putting it in the car. or removing it alltogether
If your caravan is heavier than the MTPLM the boys in blue can do a few things, if it is just over they can tell you to put some of the items in your car but remember the total weight of the car and caravan must not exceed the gross train weight.
They can give you a ticket or they can confiscate your caravan and crush it but you probably will not get stopped if the caravan looks level when towing and you are not involved in an accident, I have seen some outfits where it looks as though it's back has been broken a "V" shape in the middle.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

....but the MTPLM can be altered.
It is altered by simply removing part of your payload and putting it in the car. or removing it alltogether

NOTE - the MTPLM is fixed and is stated on the weight plate. What you mean is you need not necessarily load the van to its maximum.

 

[Plodd]

or they can confiscate your caravan and crush it .

Really? For being overweight? Which part of UK Road Traffic Law gives them the power to do that?