MTPLM Sticker/chassis plate.

[Brasso530]

Hi all,Query for our tech bods.Sticker by door usual stuff,make model miro(1089) and mtplm(1253) tire pressure.
Sticker in gas locker,Elddis explorer group,then loads of numbers/ letters(assume type approval),next line 1253,next line 0-100 kg(assume nose weight limit),next line 1-1350(axle max)next line 2-nothing/ blank.
So my question is,if I get pulled over towing and let's say I'm showing 1320kg on weightbridge,am I illegal? Car is over 1600 kerb weight,can tow 1800kg,and I'm full licence entitled.I asked at several dealers coz I thought the gas locker one was the chassis upgrade plate you can get,no one could give me an answer and elddis just fobbed me off.
Thanks in advance.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Brasso

Its important to understand that becasue a caravan is not manufactured by just one company, but is actually classed as a "multi-stage product" that uses major components from a number of different suppliers some of which have to meet individual type approval standards. The last company to add weight or load critical components is authorised to to set the weight limits for the whole product.

This means the chassis components will be rated by the chassis supplier, but becasue the body is added afterwards, the caravan manufacture has the right to set lower weight limits to never to exceed the strength body work they have fitted, or lower to suit their marketing strategy.

A conforming data plate has to be This means the conforming vehicle data plate fitted by the body manufacture will be the one that would be taken into account by the authorities, when checking the loads acting in the caravan and towing vehicle.

I refer you to the almost identical thread in the "Caravan Weight. Carefull." in the Technical section with Lutz's reply

As discussed to death in another forum, the so-called plate by the door (actually usually a sticker) has no legal bearing if it doesn't comply with the requirements for a statutory plate - and many of them don't. On a caravan built after implementation of whole vehicle type approval (in most cases Oct 2014) to be legal, it's also got to display the type approval number and the maximum permitted axle loads. If it doesn't, it's not a legal plate and one will probably find another plate, the actual statutory one, in the front locker and that is binding.
Often the sticker next to the door serves only to confirm that the caravan meets NCC approval, but NCC approval has nothing to do with what legislation requires.

 

[Lutz]

Hi all,Query for our tech bods.Sticker by door usual stuff,make model miro(1089) and mtplm(1253) tire pressure.
Sticker in gas locker,Elddis explorer group,then loads of numbers/ letters(assume type approval),next line 1253,next line 0-100 kg(assume nose weight limit),next line 1-1350(axle max)next line 2-nothing/ blank.
So my question is,if I get pulled over towing and let's say I'm showing 1320kg on weightbridge,am I illegal? Car is over 1600 kerb weight,can tow 1800kg,and I'm full licence entitled.I asked at several dealers coz I thought the gas locker one was the chassis upgrade plate you can get,no one could give me an answer and elddis just fobbed me off.
Thanks in advance.

Let me add to some of the comments that I made in the thread that the Prof referred to.
At least the MTPLM shown on the sticker by the door (1253kg) agrees with that on the statutory plate. That is not always the case. The 1350kg is, as you say, the maximum permissible axle load, but that doesn't mean that you're OK if your caravan weighs 1320kg. The MTPLM remains the absolute limit. It just means that the caravan manufacturer could upgrade the caravan from 1253kg to 1350kg subject to certain conditions being fulfilled. The caravan must be technically OK to cope with the upgrade. For instance, the tyre load index must be adequate. The caravan manufacturer must also have covered the higher MTPLM in his type approval documentation. That is why only the manufacturer can issue a plate with a revised figure.

Things get a bit screwed up where the sticker by the door shows a lower MTPLM than the plate in the front locker, as is the case with some other makes. That just shows that the manufacturer hasn't grasped the purpose of each plate. The one by the door is in line with NCC (National Caravan Council) requirements and they calculate an MTPLM according to a formula based on the size of the caravan and the number of berths, but which really has nothing to do with the actual technical load carrying capacity. It is therefore for guidance only. The legal limit is that shown on the statutory plate which can be identified by the one that displays the type approval number.

The one in the front locker is not the chassis plate. There should be a further plate on the chassis frame itself which is the actual chassis plate, but it is important only for the Stage 2 build, in other words the caravan manufacturer. It is the caravan manufacturer who finally determines the load carrying capacity of the finished product.

 

[Brasso530]

Cheers guys,just wanted it clearing up as I couldn't get an answer anywhere.1253 it is,cheers.

 

[otherclive]

Hi all,Query for our tech bods.Sticker by door usual stuff,make model miro(1089) and mtplm(1253) tire pressure.
Sticker in gas locker,Elddis explorer group,then loads of numbers/ letters(assume type approval),next line 1253,next line 0-100 kg(assume nose weight limit),next line 1-1350(axle max)next line 2-nothing/ blank.
So my question is,if I get pulled over towing and let's say I'm showing 1320kg on weightbridge,am I illegal? Car is over 1600 kerb weight,can tow 1800kg,and I'm full licence entitled.I asked at several dealers coz I thought the gas locker one was the chassis upgrade plate you can get,no one could give me an answer and elddis just fobbed me off.
Thanks in advance.

Th gas locker plate is installed at manufacture. When I had an upgrade from Swift and Bailey I received new tally plate to go on the side near the door, and an updated Certificate of Compliance showing the new loading details against the chassis number. So my locker plate showed three figure. Top one 1300kg, Line 0 100 kg and Line 1 1300 kg.
So there no doubt it serves to confuse as if said above the door plate has no significance then the pervious owner could have accepted 1300kg as the MTPLM as shown in the locker plate without transgressing the law. I remain firmly of the view that we enjoy the products of a cottage industry! Just look at how payload loading is defined as well.

 

[Raywood]

If the plate inside the gas locker is an Eldiss one and shows a higher weight than that by the door then it would be very difficult for the prosecution to prove that a caravan weighing something between the two was overloaded. I would doubt that if this higher weight plate bearing the Eldiss name was shown to whoever weighed the caravan that they would take the risk of creating a new precedent but you never know.
If the second plate was the chassis manufacturer then the Eldiss one would prevail.
I am still of the opinion that where the caravan manufacturer would upgrade the weights with no change to the caravan to a figure above the weight when checked that a court would be unlikely to convict assuming the caravan manufacturer confirmed that the caravan was in fact safe at that weight. As far as I know it has never been tested possibly because the prosecution would not want to test that theory or possibly the defence has never been tried.

 

[Lutz]

If the plate inside the gas locker is an Eldiss one and shows a higher weight than that by the door then it would be very difficult for the prosecution to prove that a caravan weighing something between the two was overloaded. I would doubt that if this higher weight plate bearing the Eldiss name was shown to whoever weighed the caravan that they would take the risk of creating a new precedent but you never know.
If the second plate was the chassis manufacturer then the Eldiss one would prevail.
I am still of the opinion that where the caravan manufacturer would upgrade the weights with no change to the caravan to a figure above the weight when checked that a court would be unlikely to convict assuming the caravan manufacturer confirmed that the caravan was in fact safe at that weight. As far as I know it has never been tested possibly because the prosecution would not want to test that theory or possibly the defence has never been tried.

Eldiss seem to have got things right inasmuch as their plate in the locker agrees with the one next to the door and both carry the Eldiss name.
Yes, the plates applied by the caravan manufacturer will prevail but the chassis plate is often not readily visible anyway, especially when it is hidden behind the A-frame fairing, as is very likely.

 

[ProfJohnL]

This topic has highlighted an issue that does need further investigation.

We know that some caravan manufacturers issue a caravan with an artificially lowered MTPLM make their caravans more attractive to drivers who do not have entitlement BE on their licence. If the driver chooses a caravan based on the manufacturers advertised (and lowered NCC value) MTPLM but the caravan has fixed plate with a higher stated MTPLM.

If the NCC plate is now classed as not official, and the authorities will use the fixed plate to establish the caravans legal MTPLM, the driver may now be driving without a valid licence for the vehicle.

This may mean caravan manufactures have to stop reducing MTPLMs and thus being able to offer upgrades.

However there is a formal process already in place for HGV's. Vehicle manufacturers produce vehicles as large as possible and with as much weight capacity as they can, but the greater the weight limit the more it is taxed. But there are industries where they need a large volume transport, but the density of the goods is low so they don't need the manufactured weight capacity with its high taxation rate.

Such companies can apply to have the "plated load" capacity reduced to reduce the taxation burden. The original manufactures data plate remains permanently attached to the vehicle but , The "Plate" is attached to the vehicle, but it is not permanent. (rather like the NCC sticker) The plate is accepted and used by the authorities.

Does the NCC sticker carry the same authority as the HGV plate?

 

[otherclive]

This topic has highlighted an issue that does need further investigation.

We know that some caravan manufacturers issue a caravan with an artificially lowered MTPLM make their caravans more attractive to drivers who do not have entitlement BE on their licence. If the driver chooses a caravan based on the manufacturers advertised (and lowered NCC value) MTPLM but the caravan has fixed plate with a higher stated MTPLM.

If the NCC plate is now classed as not official, and the authorities will use the fixed plate to establish the caravans legal MTPLM, the driver may now be driving without a valid licence for the vehicle.

This may mean caravan manufactures have to stop reducing MTPLMs and thus being able to offer upgrades.

However there is a formal process already in place for HGV's. Vehicle manufacturers produce vehicles as large as possible and with as much weight capacity as they can, but the greater the weight limit the more it is taxed. But there are industries where they need a large volume transport, but the density of the goods is low so they don't need the manufactured weight capacity with its high taxation rate.

Such companies can apply to have the "plated load" capacity reduced to reduce the taxation burden. The original manufactures data plate remains permanently attached to the vehicle but , The "Plate" is attached to the vehicle, but it is not permanent. (rather like the NCC sticker) The plate is accepted and used by the authorities

Does the NCC sticker carry the same authority as the HGV plate?

In similar vein some Motorhome owners replate their MH to 3500 kg when they reach age 70 years as they align this with their new licence entitlement rather than the hassle and cost of an annual recertification of fitness to drive a heavier vehicle. A new younger driver with full entitlement can pay to have the MH replated back to its original weight. P

 

[camel]

How is it that the caravan industry seem to just please themselves when it comes to displaying chassis plates, weight plates, manufacturers plates, do they not have to follow DSA guidelines and have the informaton in a place that it can be viewed by the DSA or the Police, I could go to an LGV and find the plates within seconds because they are either positioned for a trailer on the N/S front of chassis or on the cab unit N/S door panel or on the N/S dash.

 

[camel]

How is it that the caravan industry seem to just please themselves when it comes to displaying chassis plates, weight plates, manufacturers plates, do they not have to follow DSA guidelines and have the informaton in a place that it can be viewed by the DSA or the Police, I could go to an LGV and find the plates within seconds because they are either positioned for a trailer on the N/S front of chassis or on the cab unit N/S door panel or on the N/S dash.

 

[Lutz]

Does the NCC sticker carry the same authority as the HGV plate?

In short, no. Because it doesn't comply with the regulations, the NCC sticker can only be for guidance purposes.

How is it that the caravan industry seem to just please themselves when it comes to displaying chassis plates, weight plates, manufacturers plates, do they not have to follow DSA guidelines and have the informaton in a place that it can be viewed by the DSA or the Police, I could go to an LGV and find the plates within seconds because they are either positioned for a trailer on the N/S front of chassis or on the cab unit N/S door panel or on the N/S dash.

They are not just DSA guidelines, they are all covered in the respective legislation and that doesn't specify where exactly the statutory plate has to be fitted. The law just says that the plate must be accessible and visible.

The chassis plate is irrelevant to the final product. Otherwise, there is only one plate that is required, the type approval plate and the respective provisions in the law state explicitly what information must be displayed on that plate.

 

[camel]

Lutz, who are the NCC, and who are they answerable to, are they just an organisation set by the caravan industry similar to the RHA and FTA in the transport world, just bodies that carry no legal weight but just a pressure group,

 

[Lutz]

Lutz, who are the NCC, and who are they answerable to, are they just an organisation set by the caravan industry similar to the RHA and FTA in the transport world, just bodies that carry no legal weight but just a pressure group,

Exactly, you guessed right. The NCC are not empowered in any way to enforce any rules laid down in legislation. They are just a trade organisation and not even all caravan manufacturers are members. That's why not all caravans have a sticker next to the door. Only those that are NCC members have one.
The Certificates of Compliance that they issue don't certify that the caravan meets all legal construction and use regulations, but only that the caravan meets certain industry standards, many of which aren't even legally required.

 

[Raywood]

I do accept that the current situation is a mess and the Prof has highlighted another potential problem. I do think however that a court would be unlikely to find against anyone using the published MTPLM and shown on the sticker by the door, but it would be a risk assuming the person inspecting the caravan for whatever reason actually knew the other plate was there.

 

[Lutz]

You're right. It is a mess, but as I see it it's a self imposed mess brought about by the NCC meddling in something for which there was absolutely no need.

 

[camel]

If caravans , horseboxes and the like came under the DSA and had to have a mot stuck on them it would be a problem solved in my view but I'm one for less meddling by the DSA after being pulled more times than I can remember over the years,

 

[Hutch]

In my Coachman 2013 VIP the only data plate I can find is the one on the bodywork aft of the door. Nothing in the front locker.

 

[VicMallows]

In my Coachman 3013 VIP the only data plate I can find is the one on the bodywork aft of the door. Nothing in the front locker.

You're lucky! I don't have a plate anywhere on my 2005 Elddis. The one by the door obviously fell off before I bought it.

 

[Hutch]

In my Coachman 3013 VIP the only data plate I can find is the one on the bodywork aft of the door. Nothing in the front locker.

You're lucky! I don't have a plate anywhere on my 2005 Elddis. The one by the door obviously fell off before I bought it.

Anyone else found another data plate on a Coachman, . Apart from near the door.

 

[ProfJohnL]

If caravans , horseboxes and the like came under the DSA and had to have a mot stuck on them it would be a problem solved in my view but I'm one for less meddling by the DSA after being pulled more times than I can remember over the years,

I don't understand how having an MOT would resolve the MTPLM issue we've been discussing. Can you enlighten us please?

 

[camel]

Prof, top of the morning to you on this fine day,
It's just my view that braked trailers that are under 3500kgs like caravans , horse boxes, cattle trailers etc, should come under the same regs like trailers that weigh over 3500kgs at the same time caravans trailers under 3500kgs should have a DSA/ministry weight plate, which would carry the information of the trailers MAM/GVW plus Tare weight and pay load, very straight rather that all the caravanning gobbledegook on weights,a caravan comes out the factory with a axle weight of say 1500 kgs, the caravan is then weighed for a tare lets say 1200kgs this then leaves a pay load of 300kgs which is all your bits and bobs spare wheel motrormover etc, I forgot the dreaded nose weight, that will go off whatever the towing vehicles nose weight is and if the caravan exceeds the nose weight just the pay load accordingly, MOT's on caravans and trailers would be the best thing that ever happened at least it would prove that the caravan at the time was in a roadworthy condition rather than some of the rubbish that is stored at the storage facility I use,

 

[otherclive]

Prof, top of the morning to you on this fine day,
It's just my view that braked trailers that are under 3500kgs like caravans , horse boxes, cattle trailers etc, should come under the same regs like trailers that weigh over 3500kgs at the same time caravans trailers under 3500kgs should have a DSA/ministry weight plate, which would carry the information of the trailers MAM/GVW plus Tare weight and pay load, very straight rather that all the caravanning gobbledegook on weights,a caravan comes out the factory with a axle weight of say 1500 kgs, the caravan is then weighed for a tare lets say 1200kgs this then leaves a pay load of 300kgs which is all your bits and bobs spare wheel motrormover etc, I forgot the dreaded nose weight, that will go off whatever the towing vehicles nose weight is and if the caravan exceeds the nose weight just the pay load accordingly, MOT's on caravans and trailers would be the best thing that ever happened at least it would prove that the caravan at the time was in a roadworthy condition rather than some of the rubbish that is stored at the storage facility I use,

Whilst I agree that a simpler system of weight plating would be of benefit rather than the complex arrangements which define payload (essential, habitation etc) there’s no evidence that annual caravan MoT would aid road safety. If you do a web search you will find that this was looked at a few years back by the UK, European Commission and EU Parliament. The conclusions were that there was minimal cost benefit. Caravans are involved in a low accident rate, the road worthiness of the caravan had negligible effect on the accident rate. Major causes being badly matched outfit, speed, driver error, and of course overloaded or poorly distributed load. None of which would be prevented by an MoT. So how would your suggestion be implemented to show improvements to road safety? Might it not be simpler to require a mandatory annual service at an approved NCC service Center and to display the sticker? Or better still leave a system that seems to be working well alone and concentrate on driver training and education?

 

[Lutz]

Prof, top of the morning to you on this fine day,
It's just my view that braked trailers that are under 3500kgs like caravans , horse boxes, cattle trailers etc, should come under the same regs like trailers that weigh over 3500kgs at the same time caravans trailers under 3500kgs should have a DSA/ministry weight plate, which would carry the information of the trailers MAM/GVW plus Tare weight and pay load, very straight rather that all the caravanning gobbledegook on weights,a caravan comes out the factory with a axle weight of say 1500 kgs, the caravan is then weighed for a tare lets say 1200kgs this then leaves a pay load of 300kgs which is all your bits and bobs spare wheel motrormover etc, I forgot the dreaded nose weight, that will go off whatever the towing vehicles nose weight is and if the caravan exceeds the nose weight just the pay load accordingly, MOT's on caravans and trailers would be the best thing that ever happened at least it would prove that the caravan at the time was in a roadworthy condition rather than some of the rubbish that is stored at the storage facility I use,

The information that must be displayed on the statutory plate is laid down in detail in existing regulations and they apply to all road vehicles, whether motor vehicle or trailer. Caravans are no exception. There is no legal requirement for the tare weight or the payload to be plated. On the other hand, the MTPLM, the max. noseweight and the maximum allowable axle loads must be shown. In the case of a motor vehicle which may be used for towing, the permissible gross train weight must also be shown.

 

[camel]

Clive , I think we have seen caravans that should not be on the road also caravanners with no idea of load distribution just by looking at their outfits, the problem with MOT's either on trucks, cars LGV trailers is that the they hardly make any money out of it, last week I had my car MOT'ed and it cost me £34.00 not much profit in that when overheads are taken out, but I still think there should be an annual test or a test every two years on braked trailers because of the mechanics involved in the hitch, braking system suspension and tyres, you can go and buy your caravan and never put a spanner or bit of grease on it for the next ten years,take note I do stop at putting a road tax on caravans because I think we pay for that with the extra fuel we put in the tank,