Nationwide issue with diesel fuel of all brands?

May 7, 2012
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I have seen the reports but have not come accross anyone who has had a problem yet. It does need investigation but looks like the beaurocrats have boobed again.
 
Aug 11, 2010
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Raywood said:
I have seen the reports but have not come accross anyone who has had a problem yet. It does need investigation but looks like the beaurocrats have boobed again.
Its not a beaurocrat boob! diesel winter fuel comes in 2 classes mild climate and artic climate mild climate is good enough for us as there are several groups of adititives to help with temp control ie 5 degrees 0 degrees minus 5 degrees ect ect down to about minus 15.... if some are selling stuff graded to 5 degrees or 0 degrees then given the temps we had there not up to scratch.....no mistery really just ignorance of reporters thinking everybodies as stupid as them!!!!!!!!!!!!!111
 
Mar 14, 2005
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The reports suggest the issue is not to do with waxing solely related to low temperatures, but the apparent waxing caused by Bio Diesel elements compulsory added to comply with EU regs.

I must admit concern, as a label fixed to my VW Pasast in the fuel filler clearly states do not use bio diesel, yet it seems we have no means of avoiding it.
 
Oct 28, 2006
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Bio diesel is naturally going to wax in low temperatures,and also freeze in to solid blocks within the filters depending on how much water is in there.
But one problem with Bio is for the first few miles it completely washes the fuel system clean including all the deposits left in the fuel pipes,this lot then ends up clogging the fuel filters.After maybe 3 or 4 filter changes they then seem to run fine.But a more worrying problem is the fact because Bio cleans the internals so well,it seems alot of it ends up in the sump along with the crap from inside the engine,this tends to prematurely block oil filters up.Not a problem if things are serviced alot more often than recommended.
We had a customer who ran a lot of Scania and Cummins gensets all on Bio and besides the above all ran perfect,and to be honest when we were doing overhauls on the hours ive never seen engines in as good condition internally.I would not believe whats wriiten in a paper by some kid whos done nothing.
 
Aug 4, 2004
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seth said:
Bio diesel is naturally going to wax in low temperatures,and also freeze in to solid blocks within the filters depending on how much water is in there.
But one problem with Bio is for the first few miles it completely washes the fuel system clean including all the deposits left in the fuel pipes,this lot then ends up clogging the fuel filters.After maybe 3 or 4 filter changes they then seem to run fine.But a more worrying problem is the fact because Bio cleans the internals so well,it seems alot of it ends up in the sump along with the crap from inside the engine,this tends to prematurely block oil filters up.Not a problem if things are serviced alot more often than recommended.
We had a customer who ran a lot of Scania and Cummins gensets all on Bio and besides the above all ran perfect,and to be honest when we were doing overhauls on the hours ive never seen engines in as good condition internally.I would not believe whats wriiten in a paper by some kid whos done nothing.

Bio fuels also attack rubber components causing them to become brittle. My previous 1996 vehicle could run on straight veg oil during the summer, but during the winter the mix needed to be 80% diesel and 20% veg oil. In colder climates 100% diesel.
On first use the veg oil would clean the tank and the fuel system and you probbaly needed to replace the filter 3 or 4 times within two months depending on usage of the vehicle.
 
Aug 11, 2010
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newer cars from 2003 or 4 should have been built to tolerate these small percentage figures of bio diesel and it is up to car manufacturers to build vehicles that comply,ie they must run on the fuels available and yes there are issues which seth explained very well but newer cleaner running cars that are serviced properly and have their filters changed regular should be fine..
prof. your vw will be fine theres a huge difference between do not run on bio diesel which implies 100% bio diesel and these small biodiesel amounts that are compulsary and VW will know that and comply and construct vehicles accordingly
If in doubt give your car an extra fuel filter,oil change and oil filter change .but yearly should surfice.. i still do yearly changes which are usually 7 or 8000 mile intervals regardless of longer interval changes 12k was and is my max.....no doubt half those reported incidents will be down to poor servicing remember we have had is it 3 or 4% biodiesel in diesel for a fair few years now so its been cleaning out engines prior to these latist changes...
 
Oct 28, 2006
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There is not very much rubber used now in common rail systems(viton).The problem on older vehicles was that the Bio again due to the amount of water content would attack internal injection pump items such as hall switches and speed sensors.Attacking means making them corrode.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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Some later Volvo D5 engines have had issues with sump levels rising when successive DPF regenerations failed. This was in part attributed to the bio element in modern diesel. It particularly affected cars used on short trips or in congested traffic. There were a number of recalls as the rising sump level could lead to engines failing to shut down. The solution was to modify the regeneration fuelling map where neat fuel is injected on the exhaust stroke to provide the energy source to regenerate the DPF. The other part of the solution was to only fill the sump to the half way mark. This left room for any excess fuel to increase the sump level without risk of engine run on, or a service warning light. There is no easy accessible dipstick on these cars so the recall modified the electronic level read out to show oil level at max when in fact it was at half way mark in the sump. I've had the car nearly 4 years and done 39000 miles and never had an increased sump oil level due to unsuccessful DPF regeneration. What I have had though is several burnt lower arms as I strive to reach right down into the engine to access the technicians dipstick. Which confirmed the electronic read out. One of the reasons given for increased sump levels was that the bio element of the diesel fuel didn't vapourize adequately when injected into the exhaust stroke. Under normal injection conditions it burnt satisfactorily.
 
Oct 28, 2006
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What a poor system the Volvo uses.Affected Mazda to so im led to believe.So now Volvo have rectified the problem does that mean that Bio is an absolute no no or do Volvo owners still use Bio?Because quite clearly if Bio is still used in Volvo cars it cant be to blame.I know my 2.4 mjet has a similar system but only uses no 5 injector during the regen i wounder if Volvo were trying to use all 5 injectors during the burn.It does beg the question what do Volvo expect from an engine half filled with oil and the other half neat diesel?Do they expect to run it in that condition till next service?
 
Nov 11, 2009
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seth said:
What a poor system the Volvo uses.Affected Mazda to so im led to believe.So now Volvo have rectified the problem does that mean that Bio is an absolute no no or do Volvo owners still use Bio?Because quite clearly if Bio is still used in Volvo cars it cant be to blame.I know my 2.4 mjet has a similar system but only uses no 5 injector during the regen i wounder if Volvo were trying to use all 5 injectors during the burn.It does beg the question what do Volvo expect from an engine half filled with oil and the other half neat diesel?Do they expect to run it in that condition till next service?

/quote]
Thanks for your comments but they are a bit of an over-reaction. What is being discussed is normal pump diesel which contains a small percentage of bio diesel. There are two principle systems in use for EU5 compliant engines. One uses the engines fuel system to initiate DPF regeneration (like the Volvo and many others), the other system is to use a seperate additive which is injected into the exhaust downstream of the engine. Volvos CRDI system is Bosch who supply to other makers too, and these have had some issues. I recall X-Trail owners posting threads on caravan forums too. Both early EU 5 systems were not without problems involving clogged DPF but the additive system did not have any potential to affect the engine fuelling/lub systems.
What Volvo have done with the D5 engine is to remap the regeneration fuelling characteristics and as a precauution to address a potential rising sump level they have remaped the engine oil level sensor and reduced the quantity of oil in the sump by just 0.5 litre. Which means the level on a physical dipstick would be at the half way mark. It would be extremley rare for an engine to run on due to a weak mix of diesel and oil in the sump especially if sump levels were checked regularly. A weekly check, or pre long journey check would show a rising sump and level which would surely raise a question in the drivers mind? Then the bore cylinder seal would have to be that poor that the mix of oil and fuel would have to get back into the bore....highly unlikley a well maintained engine. More likley but still very rare is fuelling by leakage across turbo oils seals, but this can happen on any diesel engine not just EU5 or an engine running on modern pump diesel. Having an engine running with a sump half full of fuel and half of oil is a bit OTT.
Many of these Gen 3 D5s are now well into their second 100k miles annd extensively used by the emergency services. Mine has given no problems whatsover and checks using both electronic oil level gauge backed up periodically by checking with the technicians dipstick show no change in oil level over the annual service period, where I average about 10000 mile pa. Anyone doing the full 18500 between services woulnt expect any issues, so its really only a few cars where they are used for short journey operation that may have been, or potentailly been, affected, but Volvo have taken a responsible approach to safeguard the 'fleet". Newer regeneration systems recognise that some drivers dont do long runs so like the new Nissans/Renaults just coming on stream they have exhaust mainfolds in the head with DPF up close to the hot gas stream. The latest Defender uses the Transit 2.0 engine designed for long haul. or city delivery and this regenerates quickly in short hops.
So like the early days of catalysers drivers need to be aware of their system and then there should be no problems. But what is certain is that pump diesel with an percentage of bio deisel is here to stay. Looking at the Volvo Owner Forum the threads on fuelling/DPF issues with the D5 EU5 engines have virtually ceased so in many respects it was as is often the case with Forums a problem that raised more concerns than actually exsisted in reality.
 
Aug 4, 2004
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seth said:
There is not very much rubber used now in common rail systems(viton).The problem on older vehicles was that the Bio again due to the amount of water content would attack internal injection pump items such as hall switches and speed sensors.Attacking means making them corrode.

There are probably more older vehicles on the roads with the possible rubber issue than newer ones. The sad part is that the people who own these vehicles may not be able to afford the cost of the repair and be forced to buy another vehicle creating debt for themselves.
 
Aug 11, 2010
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Surfer said:
seth said:
There is not very much rubber used now in common rail systems(viton).The problem on older vehicles was that the Bio again due to the amount of water content would attack internal injection pump items such as hall switches and speed sensors.Attacking means making them corrode.

There are probably more older vehicles on the roads with the possible rubber issue than newer ones. The sad part is that the people who own these vehicles may not be able to afford the cost of the repair and be forced to buy another vehicle creating debt for themselves.
what? i do like that word probably, but i'd say probably not more older vehicles with rubber issues than newer ones because
it depends what you mean by older, plenty of older vehicles can run bio at upto 100% bio no problem. the problem really started if you tried to run high percentage bio mix on the newer Common rail and PD systems i presume the high rail amd pump pressure meant using a more modern rubber seal to cope with the much higher psi and could be susiptable to bio more so than older style rubber used in older style injection system.but i still struggle to see by what stretch of a mornyones imagination is a 7% bio mix a high percentage of bio!!!! so therefore why is this topic being disgussed in a manor as if we were actually talking about 100% bio..i'd add as these bio rules have been in the pipe line since 2003 " bio fuel directive" then the manufacurers have had plenty of time to adapt.
 
Aug 4, 2004
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Why should the EU dictate to us the sort of fuel we want to use in our vehicles? Why can't we use normal diesel instead of it being mixed with the bio which is causing problems even though the bio is only a small percentage. After all, who will pay for the repair bill caused by the mixed fuel?
 
Nov 11, 2009
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I think Surfer it is because the UK is a member of the EU is one reason why we abide by the rules of the club. Even if we were not in the EU any imported diesel would probably have a percentage of bio and when you venture abroad you would have no option but to use it. But its not an issue really is it? The problems that this post referred to affected a small minority for a short while. More media hype than the issue warranted I guess. My own view on bio fuels is that there seems quite a lot of evidence that the net benefit to the environment in overall terms is nil or even negative. But it depends on the source of the bio fuel itself.
 
Aug 11, 2010
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Surfer said:
Why should the EU dictate to us the sort of fuel we want to use in our vehicles? Why can't we use normal diesel instead of it being mixed with the bio which is causing problems even though the bio is only a small percentage. After all, who will pay for the repair bill caused by the mixed fuel?
sigh i get it now, lets disregard that bio fuel contain less particles,err which is good news for us humans,its has no acid rain forming agents,err thats good for err the planet and instead lets decide who should decide if we pollute ourselves more so or not! sorry surfer why not do a google and see who are the main law makers in the EU.. you will found that "we" the uk export a dispropotionate amount of persons executives and experts to all these bodies than anyother member...So actually it is us that lead the way in human right laws and enviroment laws,so yes you are right lets blame the EU for employing so many of our experts to make the air we breath cleaner,with one emmission law after another how dare they, how dare they stop smoking in the work place how dare they bring lung related issues down how dare they ease the already over burden NHS because of fewer case's of air pollution illness! actually i wish more cars would gum up due to bio diesel because if they are gumming up as the report claims they are poorly serviced and as such high in air polutants. and i was alway brought up with " if you cant afford to run and look after it you should nt own it"" ....but your right we should blame the EU!
 
Aug 11, 2010
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oh and i forgot even in low qualities bio diesel adds lubricity which as you know is important to diesel injectors and pumps and since sulphates have been removed from diesel this also has proven an issue... so more good news if one would like to google the amount of issues concerning fuel pumps and indeed injectors over the last decade to get some idea. and there huge cost for replacement then bio fuel at 7% should start saving a few people from costly future repair bills ...!
 
Aug 4, 2004
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JonnyG said:
oh and i forgot even in low qualities bio diesel adds lubricity
I was under the impression that it was the opposite which is why people have started adding 2 stroke low ash mineral oil into their tanks.
 
Aug 11, 2010
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no they started doing that when the sulphate was removed from diesel bio has better lubricity than standard diesel since the removal of sulphites.....I think warning people about possible problems is good just think it has to be put into perspective everything has pro's and cons and at these lower levels for now i believe bio is good and can save you money a properly maintained and clean running engine will be more effiecent mpg. clogging injectors will cost you money even if they dont go completely wrong read the same for injector pump. in mpg..
 
Jul 15, 2008
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I thought all diesel is a bio fuel......it is just that some is now man made
smiley-smile.gif
 
Nov 11, 2009
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Surfer said:
JonnyG said:
oh and i forgot even in low qualities bio diesel adds lubricity
I was under the impression that it was the opposite which is why people have started adding 2 stroke low ash mineral oil into their tanks.

no if they do its because of incorrect knowledge. This link gives a very good explanation. There are also good papers by Chevron and VAG on the web.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel
 
Nov 11, 2009
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Gafferbill said:
I thought all diesel is a bio fuel......it is just that some is now man made
smiley-smile.gif

The link in my post above describes the various types of diesel fuel, but the basic component of diesel bought at the pumps is still derived from crude oil and in the future from shale oil and tar sands. But it is still a fossil fuel found in the ground. The bio element comprises a relatively small percentage of each litre of fuel. In the EU it is 5% and will rise to 6%, but I believe that the proposed 10% limit has been deferred on the grounds that it may be environmentally negative ( uses too many food crops that could better feed the hungry) (see link), and objections from engine makers too. The bio diesel comes from crop or organism sources not to be confused with the straight vegatable oil that some people have run older engines on. The addition of 2T oil (low ash) is primarily to aid combustion as it is said to give a better cetane number, similar to Millers additives. But the days oof just dosing your fuel with anything that doesnt come out of a pump I think are over. The modern CRDI engine with its high pressure and multi hole piezo injectors isnt the sort of beast I would want to take risks with.
http://www.bio-diesel.org.uk/biodiesel-news/2093-eu-votes-for-6-percent-cap-on-first-generation-biofuels-biodiesel-magazine
 
Jul 15, 2008
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......my post was 'tongue in cheek' and referred to the fact that the man made product we call diesel is derived from fossilised vegetable and animal remains and the product we call bio diesel is also a man made product derived from a vegetable crop or animal processing.
In that sense it is all biological fuel......that's the way I look at it anyway.
 

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