New style gas regulators

[Tim_374322116]

Del, speaking to Richard at Truma last week about the ongoing problems with gas regulators, he was telling me about a guy with a brand new motorhome, which the customer had specified stainless steel throughout the whole installation, and guess what.....the same thing happened, regulator blocked by the residue.

As regards other replies, washing the regulator is not recommended as it can cause damage to the internal diagphram of the two stage GOK regulator, and as for the pigtail, once attacked by the gas, it will continue to leech out the plasticiser.

The issue of qualified and competent are really just a play on words, both mean, in terms of gas regulations, that the fitter has been checked and approved and certified to work on LPG , it is not a simple case of believing you are competent just because you think you are.

For example, a CORGI registered fitter must be LPG qualified as well to work on LPG, or the fitter must be qualified under the European Registration Scheme (formerly ACOPS)

I don't believe this residue is from the gas pipes. It's the odouriser that the petroleum companies add to the propane/butane so that you can smell it and /or impurities not removed by the refining.

As previously suggested, when the gas condenses in the pipe on a cold night and then vapourises as the temperature increases, the odouriser does not. It remains as a liquid in the pipe and then is carried into the regulator by the flow of gas. With the old 'regulator on bottle' system the the impurities remained in the gas cylinder.

I fitted a Gas Low system many years ago and was regularly draining liquid from the hoses. In my opinion the new bulk head regulators are a massive step backwards impossed on us by people who don't caravan.

 

[Tim_374322116]

I don't believe this residue is from the gas pipes. It's the odouriser that the petroleum companies add to the propane/butane so that you can smell it and /or impurities not removed by the refining.

As previously suggested, when the gas condenses in the pipe on a cold night and then vapourises as the temperature increases, the odouriser does not. It remains as a liquid in the pipe and then is carried into the regulator by the flow of gas. With the old 'regulator on bottle' system the the impurities remained in the gas cylinder.

I fitted a Gas Low system many years ago and was regularly draining liquid from the hoses. In my opinion the new bulk head regulators are a massive step backwards impossed on us by people who don't caravan.

 

[Marko96]

I don't believe this residue is from the gas pipes. It's the odouriser that the petroleum companies add to the propane/butane so that you can smell it and /or impurities not removed by the refining.

As previously suggested, when the gas condenses in the pipe on a cold night and then vapourises as the temperature increases, the odouriser does not. It remains as a liquid in the pipe and then is carried into the regulator by the flow of gas. With the old 'regulator on bottle' system the the impurities remained in the gas cylinder.

I fitted a Gas Low system many years ago and was regularly draining liquid from the hoses. In my opinion the new bulk head regulators are a massive step backwards impossed on us by people who don't caravan.

Will the gas appliances in an 05 van run at 37mb are they designed to run at 30mb

 

[Marko96]

Will the gas appliances in an 05 van run at 37mb are they designed to run at 30mb

 

[RogerL]

Probably - for many years appliances in caravans have been rated 28-30/37, ie multi-rated. That continued after fixed 30 mbar regulators were introduced. You'd need to check the rating plate of each appliance.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Mark,

I am sorry to be the one that continues to major on the need to be compliant with regulations, but I would be failing in my duty of care if I did not point out unsafe or illegal practices.

As Roger has stated, you need to check the specifications of all the appliances connected to the system. The data plates will specify the allowable gas pressures for the appliances. However - if the gas pipes have only been fitted in compliance with the 30mB pressure then they have not been approved for 37mB.

Technically the difference in pressure is not very much, and test pressure are usually much higher so I would be very surprised if a 30mB system could not safely contain 37mB pressure, but as the system has not been constructed and approved for 37mB it would be contrary to the Gas safety Installation and Use regulations, and thus a criminal offence under Health & Safety regulations to do so.

 

[Damian]

The problematic changeover to bulkhead regulators throws up more than one difficulty.

As John L states, changing any part of the fixed installation, of which the bulkhead regulator is part of, will be affecting the integrity of the original fitment and testing under EN1949, to which all caravans produced from 2004 comply.

Whilst the testing is carried out at 150mB, the system is only approved for use at 30mB operating pressure.

If owners do a modification by changing to a cylinder mounted regulator, then when a service is required, the engineer MUST refuse to work on any of the gas installation until it is restored to the EN1949 requirements.

He does not have a choice, it is mandatory.

Appliance manufacturers also know that post 2004 vans are set to operate on EN1949 rules, and any problem with an appliance may well end up with the maker refusing to honour any warranty if the system has been altered in any way.

On a positive note, changes were made to the BS for LPG last year which resulted in marginally cleaner gas, and more changes are due to be implemented over the next couple of years to bring all gas to the same standard, which will mean even cleaner gas in the UK, and hopefully an end to the current problems.

 

[Marko96]

Thanks for your comments John L I understand what you are saying and have decided to put it into my local caravan dealer to have a new regulator fitted, i did contact Swift who told me to get it fixed at a Swift dealer under warranty but that is impractical for me as the distance is too far.

In the communications with Swift i was informed that there are no quality issues with the Truma regulator, and in the next e mail they suggest a fix for the "problem", they also suggested that this problem is not just happening with Truma regulators, has anybody had this problem with another make of regulator i wonder?

 

[MikeAce]

Hi all, i thought i would resurrect this thread as i have had some problems too.

I am now on my third bulkhead regulator and when it packed in over new year i swapped it out for an old style (but brand new) 37mb regulator.

I am an ex gas engineer so have no problems checking the joints etc but i wonder how many other people have made this conversion and intend to leave it with the old style regulator fitted as i do?

To change the regulator and the pig tail, new elbow, extend the pipework etc will cost about

 

[Del_374232870]

My concern inst the warranty , but the insurance. Insurers dont need much excuse to avoid paying out on a claim.

 

[vernon]

Del

What insurance claim do you envisage? it won't affect a theft claim, and after a caravan fire with the gas cylinders exploding there won't be much of a regulator or caravan left.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello MikeAce.

I am sorry but I am not going to be very helpful here, but there are important technical and legal issues regarding reverting to the older style 37mbar regulator on a 30mBar caravan.

As an ex gas engineer, you will be familiar with the regulations. It is a breech of the regulations to cause a gas systems to be used on a gas supply other than the type and pressure the system has approval for.

Touring caravan LPG systems are now only certificated for 30mBar, not 37mBar. Whilst we both know that the realistic impact of the additional 7mBar pressure is negligible in terms of the gas tightness capability of such systems, the fact remains that it is greater than the nominal certified pressure, and that does breech the regulations.

You will also be familiar with the fact that each appliance now has to state the gas categories and working pressures for which they are approved. In some cases there are physical differences to cope with the different pressures, and there is no guarantee that an appliance only rated at 30mB will work correctly and safely at 37mBar. Whilst it might appear to be working, it may not be conforming to the efficiency, or the products of combustion could be non-conforming. This could be a real issue for the non-room sealed appliances, if they are producing more CO due to poor combustion, again this breaches regulations.

In the event of any incident where the gas system may be a contributing factor, the fact that it is non-conforming could give rise to an HSE investigation and if prosecuted may result in heavy fines and the possibility of a prison sentence.

From your insures point of view, the fact that it is now non-approved installation, may be sufficient for them to review their cover and liability in respect of all claims.

It may be sufficient to have the system re-certified to the higher pressure, but I am not currently sure whether this is possible in the light of the new pressure standards adopted in the UK.

 

[MikeAce]

Some good points, thank you for the detailed reply john, i understand though that caravans are soundness tested to 150mb, is that true? i dont know about that.

I guess that i will have to check the working pressures on the data plates of the appliances, as you said, it may appear to be working but if the flames are lifting off the burners on the water heater or fridge then it may be a problem.

does anyone know if when they introduced this regulation the appliances were altered to accomodate it or are the appliances the same as they always were, i mean, i have a thetford n80e fridge (Crap), i wonder if the n80e prior to 2004 has a different pilot or burner assembly to accomodate a lower pressure?

 

[Damian]

Mike,

The soundness test on pre 2004 vans is at 47mb, but on post 2004 vans it is 150mb over a ten minute period with an acceptable loss of 10mb.

Whilst I can see the frustration of the mainly GOK regulator problem, what you have done may throw up other complications if you need a gas service, as the fitter will not be able to work on your equipment until it is returned to its approved state.

The problem seems to be with the two stage regulator, however, Cleese make a single stage fixed regulator and it complies with the 30mb output rating.

If your van is out of warranty, it may be worth considering.