Hi all , just bought my first caravan to take my family away ,I used to go with my parents when I was younger and we used to have so much fun , so we bought our first van a bailey pageant and I want to add some more sockets ,any advice would be helpful .thanks
New to caravaning Adding more electrical sockets to my bailey pageant
- Thread starter Rower07
- Start date
I put an extra 3 sockets in my last van. 1 almost next to the existing socket above one of the worktops which I ran in as a spur. The second was under the seat by the battery box which I ran in off a junction box on the ring under the same seat. The third was in the battery box as I wanted to use a tabletop grill in the awning.
To be legal(and safe) you must be a competant person under the regs and all work must be in accordance with the regs. There are sections of the electrical regs particular to caravans. If you don't strictly adhere to them then you can forget insurance in the event of a fire. If in doubt then ask a reputable dealer to fit them for you.
To be legal(and safe) you must be a competant person under the regs and all work must be in accordance with the regs. There are sections of the electrical regs particular to caravans. If you don't strictly adhere to them then you can forget insurance in the event of a fire. If in doubt then ask a reputable dealer to fit them for you.
just a thought after reading the post from Graham, you dont have to be an electrician to work on a van just competant ie know what you are doing if you dont, let some one to do it for you,
fitting a socket in the battery box is not a good idea and neither is in the gas locker, I am sure there is regs about this!. "explosive fumes and all that" while it should be remembered that although the 240v will be at only a max of 16amps (protected by MCB,s) and not 32/40amp as in a domestic socket, a short could still cause a fire, the wire must be multi strand of an approprieate amperage "like ehu wire" and not the domestic single strand "bear earth" ring main stuff, it is best fittd in trunking (to avoid damage)
also the total amperage draw inc any new sockets must be calculated as a whole when in use so as to not trip the bollard mcb, ie dont switch on the electric kettle while (her indoors) is using the hair drier while watching tv and making the morning toast
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the OP has not said wether he contemplate adding sockets of the 12v or 240v variety (one assumes the latter), the former however is a completely different ball game.
fitting a socket in the battery box is not a good idea and neither is in the gas locker, I am sure there is regs about this!. "explosive fumes and all that" while it should be remembered that although the 240v will be at only a max of 16amps (protected by MCB,s) and not 32/40amp as in a domestic socket, a short could still cause a fire, the wire must be multi strand of an approprieate amperage "like ehu wire" and not the domestic single strand "bear earth" ring main stuff, it is best fittd in trunking (to avoid damage)
also the total amperage draw inc any new sockets must be calculated as a whole when in use so as to not trip the bollard mcb, ie dont switch on the electric kettle while (her indoors) is using the hair drier while watching tv and making the morning toast
the OP has not said wether he contemplate adding sockets of the 12v or 240v variety (one assumes the latter), the former however is a completely different ball game.
Colin is your understanding of 'competent' correct? In domestic and industrial installations a competent person is one who by nature of their training and experience will have certifactes of competence awarded for specific aspects of work. Recently NPower installed a new boiler in our daughters house and the electrician came to install the wireless thermostat. He told me that despite having been a time served apprentice at ICI and working in numerous industrial , commercial and resedential premises any work he may do in his own house has to be independently certified by a competent person with the necessary registration. So why should caravan 240 volt systems be different in their definition of competent?
agree wholeheartedly about electric outlets in the gas or battery lockers.
agree wholeheartedly about electric outlets in the gas or battery lockers.
I don't think the regs cover caravans, but could be wrong. If you are competent, there is nothing stopping you rewiring your own house, but it needs a certified person to connect it to the mains. I regard myself as a competent person although I am not a qualified or time serve electrician, however I would never connect into the mains myself without the system being checked by a qualified technician. They would then connect into the mains. In a caravan you are mainly adding on a spur so not really an issue as that is almost the same as plugging in an extension.otherclive said:
The following link should be of interest
http://www.electrical-testing.co.uk/p/articles/diy-electrical-works-is-it-worth-it-and-how-does-part-p-affect-me
Take particular not of the paragraphs about half way down the page about having works inspected. Note getting DIY wiring certificated may not be as easy as you think.
You may also find this helpful:-
http://www.thomson-caravans.co.uk/advice/diyprojects/pdf/mainselectricalInstallations.pdf
Also look at page 7 of this :-
http://www.caravantalk.co.uk/library/files/Beginners-Guide-To-Electrics.pdf
Here are the instructions from an electrical installation kit. Note the third line
http://www.w4limited.com/pdf/20022_Instruction.pdf
http://www.electrical-testing.co.uk/p/articles/diy-electrical-works-is-it-worth-it-and-how-does-part-p-affect-me
Take particular not of the paragraphs about half way down the page about having works inspected. Note getting DIY wiring certificated may not be as easy as you think.
You may also find this helpful:-
http://www.thomson-caravans.co.uk/advice/diyprojects/pdf/mainselectricalInstallations.pdf
Also look at page 7 of this :-
http://www.caravantalk.co.uk/library/files/Beginners-Guide-To-Electrics.pdf
Here are the instructions from an electrical installation kit. Note the third line
http://www.w4limited.com/pdf/20022_Instruction.pdf
Surfer said:
Surfer not doubting your capability to do DIY work on your van or house you are not " a Competent" person as defined by IEE regs or Gas Safe. In these specific areas ( and others) Competent is effectively a legal definition within the H&S framework.
yes I believe it is ! although diy'ers like Surfer and myself are a dying breed, snowed under by blizzard of regulation and red tape. I too rewired the whole house and re plummed it inc designing and fitting the central heating system, kitchen and bathrooms knocking out walls and fitting RSJ's, everything was done to the approprieate standard (it must have been as it has lasted 30years and still functions correctly) as Surfer says the only 2 professional jobs that were done was to connect the mains to the consumer unit (YEB) and connect the gas boiler to the mains supply, (NEGB) both installation were checked and tested and found to be sound, in fact the YEB engineer asked which contractor had done the wiring, as it was the best installation he had seen for some time. change is inevitable however I just think classing all diyer,s by the lowest denominator is sad, it is like classing all youths as trouble makers and drug addicts this is clearly NOT the case, there may be some but the majority are not, assuming a DIY'er is inept and swathes of legistlation inacted to prevent them persuing there hobby is beyond belief. reading the links John has provided it seems this idiology will continue to the point where where joe public cannot change a light bulb unaided, has anyone taken the time to look at the wiring installations in there vans I have hell what a mess, a birds nest of mixed wires held together by tye wraps and clips unproteced under the front bunk, and this is a professional installation by the manufacturer!!. a half decent DIY'er could do a much better job I am sure, SO yes Clive I think my understanding is correct. just by saying compitance is derived at by some certificate or other is just another way of restricting practices,otherclive said:
I too have totally gutted and modernised a 17th century cottage in Dartmoor as well as rebuilding engines etc. But on current discussions where younger members join and ask questions it is beholden on those who reply to be aware that times have changed as has terminology. I would consider myself capable but not a Competent person as per current terminology.
At the risk of upsetting the apple cart can we rewind a bit please.
Caravans do not have ring mains as we know them in the UK.
In fact every socket is a spur as per the regulations in most of Europe.
Colin correctly points out that multi core cable must be used not solid single copper.
Now if you can wire a plug and socket; understand the earth positive and negative terminals; know how to use a residual current polarity tester (available at all caravan shops) and have the common sense to carefully secure the cable away from the hazards already mentioned is it really such a taboo subject that only an "expert" should install the extension?
So the bloke brings along his extension lead and uses that. Is it really that much different
I specifically address these comments to all the old lags on here who are of course reasonably competent but in Law not technically qualified perhaps.
It is interesting to note that on the caravan tv show John Wickersham quite often explains how to to do a bit of 12 v or 230v wiring .
Yes I agree for Newbies we must be cautious but do we have to go OTT just to protect Lord Hezza and his Ivory Tower
Caravans do not have ring mains as we know them in the UK.
In fact every socket is a spur as per the regulations in most of Europe.
Colin correctly points out that multi core cable must be used not solid single copper.
Now if you can wire a plug and socket; understand the earth positive and negative terminals; know how to use a residual current polarity tester (available at all caravan shops) and have the common sense to carefully secure the cable away from the hazards already mentioned is it really such a taboo subject that only an "expert" should install the extension?
So the bloke brings along his extension lead and uses that. Is it really that much different
I specifically address these comments to all the old lags on here who are of course reasonably competent but in Law not technically qualified perhaps.
It is interesting to note that on the caravan tv show John Wickersham quite often explains how to to do a bit of 12 v or 230v wiring .
Yes I agree for Newbies we must be cautious but do we have to go OTT just to protect Lord Hezza and his Ivory Tower
otherclive said:
Lord Hesletine, Tory Peer and ultimate owner of Haymarket Group who produce Practical Caravan Magazine and whose Lawyers determine what can and can't be included on their Forums.
Electrical work in certain locations should be notified to the local authority either directly or through a provider such as NICEIC or ELECSA kitchens bathrooms and outside work are the chief places from memory,other work just needs a test certificate which you can download and complete.Nowadays you need to check the RCD is working correctly but if you have a tester and multimeter and know what you are doing there is nothing to stop you doing it yourself imho.I was ELECSA registered but let it go concentrating on gas work so have the tester.As far as I know just a test certificate (minor works) is all you need for a caravan socket.
Hello Dusty
It has nothing to do with who owns the web site, but it has all to do with the legality of carrying out some types of works. Its rather like our driving licences, anyone who knows how to drive a car will know the basics of how to drive most motor vehicles, but their licence may make it illegal, and they won't know the intricate details that other groups of vehicle drivers have to demonstrate through training and tests.
In years gone by I was Corgi Registered for LPG and NICEIC certified for mains in caravans. As part of our work we did work on both LPG and Electrics in customers caravans. We saw a wide range of the quality of work and even new caravans straight from manufactures often did leave something to be desired, and we often wondered how they could justify some of the factory work they had done. But by far the worst cases were where DIYers had been at work, and frankly some of the installations were patently and had proved to be dangerous with end users being seriously injured in some cases.
We were asked to check some vans, but where we could not check the quality of work we refused to issue any completion certs. Bear in mind that if an installation later proved to be faulty and we had signed it off as safe we could be prosecuted under CRIMINAL law.
No self respecting professional should jeopardise their accreditations and livelihoods by signing off unknown works. That applies even more now than.
I am very much aware that some DIYers are very capable of carrying out high quality work, but these days you need the authority to be able to do some jobs. Unfortunately many posters do not realise that even with our anonymous nicknames, we are potentially liable for what we post (recent cases against twitter and facebook users have proven this) and as we don't personally know every reader of the forum the safest bet is to assume the lowest common denominator.
It has nothing to do with who owns the web site, but it has all to do with the legality of carrying out some types of works. Its rather like our driving licences, anyone who knows how to drive a car will know the basics of how to drive most motor vehicles, but their licence may make it illegal, and they won't know the intricate details that other groups of vehicle drivers have to demonstrate through training and tests.
In years gone by I was Corgi Registered for LPG and NICEIC certified for mains in caravans. As part of our work we did work on both LPG and Electrics in customers caravans. We saw a wide range of the quality of work and even new caravans straight from manufactures often did leave something to be desired, and we often wondered how they could justify some of the factory work they had done. But by far the worst cases were where DIYers had been at work, and frankly some of the installations were patently and had proved to be dangerous with end users being seriously injured in some cases.
We were asked to check some vans, but where we could not check the quality of work we refused to issue any completion certs. Bear in mind that if an installation later proved to be faulty and we had signed it off as safe we could be prosecuted under CRIMINAL law.
No self respecting professional should jeopardise their accreditations and livelihoods by signing off unknown works. That applies even more now than.
I am very much aware that some DIYers are very capable of carrying out high quality work, but these days you need the authority to be able to do some jobs. Unfortunately many posters do not realise that even with our anonymous nicknames, we are potentially liable for what we post (recent cases against twitter and facebook users have proven this) and as we don't personally know every reader of the forum the safest bet is to assume the lowest common denominator.
that is exactly what is wrong with this issue!! automatically assume all professionals are cowboys out to rip you off. and all DIY,ers are amature bodge merchants that can't do the simplist job without being a danger to themselves and others. no wonder the country is in such a state. perhaps it time to rename the magazine un/practical caravanning. or better still if a member asks a maintinance question just refer them to the approprieate specialist dealing with this kind of problem assuming they can afford it, and then the forum can be used for the important stuff like site directions!!. ps. no plug intendedProf John L said:
Hello Dusty It has nothing to do with who owns the web site, but it has all to do with the legality of carrying out some types of works.
I have to disagree John. It's always the publisher who equally carries the can where a libel or misinformation appears on their forum. Remember the problems our Mods and Haymarket had with a certain Insurer who was slated on here?
I have to disagree John. It's always the publisher who equally carries the can where a libel or misinformation appears on their forum. Remember the problems our Mods and Haymarket had with a certain Insurer who was slated on here?
Parksy
Moderator
Just to clarify the position of the forum on questions such as this.
Obviously Haymarket would like information carried on their caravan forum to be correct but let's not forget that this forum is part of a website which carries lots of information and advice about all aspects of caravanning.
Much of this advice on the website is written by the editorial team who produce the magazine, and the writers do their best to ensure that the information is correct and not likely to endanger a reader who followed their advice or bring them into conflict with the law.
The forum is a place where caravanners and those interested can express opinions on all aspects of caravanning.
If Haymarket 'publish' these opinions by allowing them to appear on their moderated forum, then libel laws apply.
Moderators try to negate the chances of litigation due to defamation.
No such laws apply when opinions are expressed on the forum by lay persons regarding technical matters.
Of course, in an ideal world a team of technical experts would be on hand to vet each and every technical opinion, and to rule on whether it could be allowed to appear on the forum, but unfortunately that level of resource is unavailable.
In the case of technical opinion, recommendations, tips, advice, in fact all matters except those involving the possibility of libel, the forum user has to judge for themselves whether or not the advice given is worth accepting.
The disclaimer from Forum Etiquette clearly states that : 'Practicalcaravan.com takes no responsibility for the accuracy of information transmitted in this forum. The opinions expressed in the forum are not those of Practicalcaravan.com or Haymarket Publishing Limited.'
Obviously Haymarket would like information carried on their caravan forum to be correct but let's not forget that this forum is part of a website which carries lots of information and advice about all aspects of caravanning.
Much of this advice on the website is written by the editorial team who produce the magazine, and the writers do their best to ensure that the information is correct and not likely to endanger a reader who followed their advice or bring them into conflict with the law.
The forum is a place where caravanners and those interested can express opinions on all aspects of caravanning.
If Haymarket 'publish' these opinions by allowing them to appear on their moderated forum, then libel laws apply.
Moderators try to negate the chances of litigation due to defamation.
No such laws apply when opinions are expressed on the forum by lay persons regarding technical matters.
Of course, in an ideal world a team of technical experts would be on hand to vet each and every technical opinion, and to rule on whether it could be allowed to appear on the forum, but unfortunately that level of resource is unavailable.
In the case of technical opinion, recommendations, tips, advice, in fact all matters except those involving the possibility of libel, the forum user has to judge for themselves whether or not the advice given is worth accepting.
The disclaimer from Forum Etiquette clearly states that : 'Practicalcaravan.com takes no responsibility for the accuracy of information transmitted in this forum. The opinions expressed in the forum are not those of Practicalcaravan.com or Haymarket Publishing Limited.'
Someone earlier on suggested that if the ameteur work was not up to standard that insurance may be invalidated.
What if I bought a used van that the previous owner had done some electric work on without telling me. Do I have to have the van inspected by a qualified person just in case?
HSE is an ass!
What if I bought a used van that the previous owner had done some electric work on without telling me. Do I have to have the van inspected by a qualified person just in case?
HSE is an ass!
emmerson said:
Emmo
I assume you have your caravan regularly serviced rather than a diy job? If so then the engineer should at the very least test all the circuitry , RCD and MCBs etc plus an earth continuity test. So even if "extra" work you didn't know about had been done if the tests go well you shouldn't have a problem. Looking at where the wires and plugs are situate is important ie not in gas or battery lockers.
We have all mentioned declaration of material facts to your insurers for obvious reason. But how can you declare something you don't know about??
Dustydog said:
They do not test your electric circuitry on an annual service as they only check it. A test costs extra, but on a recently purchased caravan probably worth paying the extra to have the electrics and gas systems checked.
Don't they put a drop pressure test on the gas system as part of the annual service, my workshop does this. But your correct on the electrics though. I use a socket tester, go round the van looking at cabling where it can be seen and regularly trip the circuit breakers.
Dustydog, no I've never had a caravan "professionally" serviced. After a lifetime in and around the motor trade, and over 40 years caravanning, I think I understand my Royale better than the pimply youth who has a certificate to say he can do it!
Also, I've had my present Royale for 15 years, and had three Royales before that, so I know them inside out (litterally, in one case!)
I do appreciate however that if anyone is not 100% certain of their capabilities, then use a professional.
Also, I've had my present Royale for 15 years, and had three Royales before that, so I know them inside out (litterally, in one case!)
I do appreciate however that if anyone is not 100% certain of their capabilities, then use a professional.
Apologies.
After rereading my post I realise that I said I put a socket in the battery box which would have been foolish. What I meant was that I put a socket adjacent to the mover isolator switch which is in the compartment next to the battery box.
Reading some of the posts about dealers and checks on vans made me recall that I looked at several second hand vans on dealers forecourts with some very dodgy electrical work. One or two had sockets fitted in the washroom and additional lights fitted in the strangest of places.
And the electrical regs do include caravans.
After rereading my post I realise that I said I put a socket in the battery box which would have been foolish. What I meant was that I put a socket adjacent to the mover isolator switch which is in the compartment next to the battery box.
Reading some of the posts about dealers and checks on vans made me recall that I looked at several second hand vans on dealers forecourts with some very dodgy electrical work. One or two had sockets fitted in the washroom and additional lights fitted in the strangest of places.
And the electrical regs do include caravans.
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