Nose weight of Bailey Pegasus/Unicorn

[JohnC]

Hi,
I am thinking of purchasing a new Bailey caravan but have read in various forums articles regarding the high noseweight (100kgs)
Has anybody reduced the noseweight to allow a vehicle to tow the van legally with a 75kg max. towbar.
If so, has it caused any stabillity problems.
Thanks,
John

 

[ProfJohnL]

Helo John,
Noseweight is never a fixed value, it always changes whenever you load an item into the caravan and place it in front or behind the axle.

There are only two figures Bailey or any other manufacture can quote with regards nose weight, the first is the chassis nose weight limit - which is deteremined by the chassis manufacture and for most caravans is 100Kg. You must not exceed this figure under any towing situation.

The second figure is an exworks nose weight and that depends on the design of the caravan and represents the nose weight of the empty caravan. It is not a recomendation or target figure for towing.

The majority of caravans are still towed by standard saloon cars or estates and many are limited to about 75kg nose weight limits, so the chances are your caravan will tow satisfactorily with a nose load not exceding 75Kg - But there is no gurantee. It is a requirement that the caravan user must load their caravan to trim the nose weight to bring it into the range for their particular tow vehicle.
Good towing is not just about weights, its about ensuring your out fit is maintained properly and in good order. Most of all its down to the driving style and habits of the driver.

 

[JohnC]

Thanks for the reply.
The 100kg noseweight is the factory delivered weight.
To reduce the noseweight to 75kg would take alot of weight behind the axle considering gas bottle(s) are to be placed in the front locker.
Has anybody had experience of this?
Thanks,
John

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello John

Short and simple answer to this is yes - every caravanner who has the same model as you, along with a number of models from Bailey and other manufacturers.

The way to approach it is to keep only the bare minimum of heavy objects at the front and to reditribute some of the other items behind the axle. (Ehu cable, Mallet chocks and pegs, widing handle etc) This works for most items such as awning and poles, water conatiner, clothes etc. However gas bottles must only be carried in the locker provided for them,and tehbattery is safest in the locker provide for it. - even consider part filling the water container to provide more ballast.

I have never found a caravan that cannot be reloaded and trimed to produce an acceptabel nose weight.

 

[xtrailman]

Hi,
I am thinking of purchasing a new Bailey caravan but have read in various forums articles regarding the high noseweight (100kgs)
Has anybody reduced the noseweight to allow a vehicle to tow the van legally with a 75kg max. towbar.
If so, has it caused any stabillity problems.
Thanks,
John

I have a Valencia.
The measured ex works nose weight for my caravan was measured at 90kg, Bailey claimed 88kg.
However some models have reported ex works weights over 100kg, by owners, so i would suggest you check prior to accepting the caravan.
I can get my NW down to 80kg, but only be back loading, generally i find the caravan tows better with 90/95kg nose weight.

For that reason i advise a towcar with a minimum of 90kg nw limit.

Having said that Bailey have responded to complaints, some units have been taken back to the factory for rectification.
But now the latest models have had the battery box moved further back, the underbed locker is now where the battery box was.

So make sure you get the latest version, this will also include the improved shower room heating mods.
Also my mover is fitted behind the axle, so removes some 3-4kg of the NW.

 

[otherclive]

Well if all Bailey are (and can do) is to move some weight back then surely a competent owner can load the van to adjust it down to the cars nosewight limit. 25 kg adjustment is normally not difficult and does not entail just putting 25 litres in the aft toilet cassette and tank.

 

[RogerB]

Same problem with our Olympus 534.To get the nose to 80kg,the max allowed by the car manufacturer,we have only 1 lite gas bottle in the front locker and virtually nothing else forward of the axle.Needless to say we don't have the optional chest.Almost everything else is placed under the bed which is just behind the axle.This gives us 80kg on the nose but I don't think the caravan feels as stable as our old Senator.I strongly disagree with some people who suggest adding weight to the extreme rear of the van.This would be most effective at reducing the noseweight but would be most likely to give instability.
Great caravan though once the noseweight issue is sorted.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Roger,

Scientifically, adding mass to the extreme ends of a caravan will increase the rotational inertial characteristics of the caravan as it tries rotate about its axle. This actually has two related effects, firstly, it needs more energy to start it turning, and secondly more energy has to be dissipated to stop it turning.

So to put it into the context towing, A caravan with a large end load will resists changes of direction which could help it to resist the onset of instability, But once it has started it needs greater effort to control it.

Conversely the same caravan with a reduced end mass, will be upset by a smaller force (such as side winds, or bow waves), but once started can be more easily stopped.

I would be tempted to say its swings and roundabouts, but its actually more to do with see saws

 

[RogerB]

Interesting reply John but every piece of advice that I've ever read says not to put heavy items at the extreme rear.I always put them near to the axle.I would also never tow with the flush tank full.
Would you tow with heavy items at the extreme rear?
What do other members feel about this?Any bad experiences?
I'd be interested to hear.

 

[StevePeters]

I agree I keep as much weight as possible near to the axel, this is where the bed on the 534 is just right as I can keep the bits out of the walk way. I use a set of wind breaks in the walkway which I can move forwards/bacwords to get the required nose weight. Check before towing each time. This is good as it has sufficient weight to make a difference but a low Centre of Gravity.
With my very first caravan made the mistake of putting heavey items at the rear, tail wagging the dog, did not go far before having to change.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Roger and Steve,

Despite my observations above, I still recommend the accepted wisdom which is to keep large masses away from the extreme ends of the caravan.

On balance it is almost certainly better to require less effort to bring something back under control, which would be the case for caravan with a central mass rather than a distributed mass.

BUT there are times when it may become necessary to end load to trim for the correct nose load.

This isn't necessarily as bad as you might think, There are caravans with say an end bathroom, and a similar sized model with a bedroom, there are differences in the mass distribution simply from the weight of the components used and both caravans may tow perfectly satisfactorily I imagine that as much as 50Kg difference could easily be generated.

I have found it necessary to add ballast to the rear of a caravan to set up the correct nose weight. I did this using an Aquaroll part filled with water, adding some 20Kg of mass against the back wall of a caravan. No instability was caused.

As always there's no black and white about these issues. The addition of mass to the rear will change the moments of inertia, but its likely any deterioration of stability will be progressive as the mass increases rather than step change.

If an additional 20 to 30Kg end load were to cause a caravan to step change into unstable, then I would be very suspect about how stable the outfit would have been without the additional load.

 

[xtrailman]

I back loaded my senator for 7 years and had no problems.
Same with the Valencia, i have two 40 liter aqua rolls (empty) and a waste container strapped in the shower room.
As i have 90/95 on the nose i don't see a problem.

However if you back load to offset for a 75kg or less NW, then that could be unstable.
I think the CC advise using 5%-7% of the MTPLM for the nose weight is sound advise.
Thats around a 80kg minimum for a Valencia.

 

[Lutz]

Fair comment, but it's of little help to those who tow with a car which typically allows only 75kg noseweight. Mine, for example has a max towload of 2000kg, so a Valencia would be well within that limit, but only 80kg max. noseweight, which would be borderline when going by CC advice. In a case like that, ways would have to be found to keep the caravan stable despite a relatively low noseweight. Clearly, the manufacturers are challenged.

 

[RogerL]

I think the CC advise using 5%-7% of the MTPLM for the nose weight is sound advise.

CC used to advise 7% and had to reduce it because caravans have got heavier but the 100kg Alko hitch limit hasn't. In other parts of the world noseweights, or tongueweights as they call them, are 15-20% and they would regard our 5-7% as postively dangerous.
I still think my definition from years ago is the best "noseweight should be as heavy as possible but not exceeding any of the applicable limits, ie towcar, towbar, towball, caravan hitch"

 

[Sedo]

Hi
We tow a Pegasus 524 with a Sedona TS auto.
The Sedona will tow 2,000kg with an 85kg nosewieght so we have to back load to a degree.
Even after removing all items of any weight from the front lockers we can be too high especially with gas cylinders in the locker and the front chest fitted.
With the 524 any food in the fridge and gas cylinders affect the noseweight.
In fact for example on our last trip out we got a reading of just under a 100kg, taking a new spare gas cylinder (Calor Lite 6kg) out of the locker immediately brings the noseweight to within spitting distance of the 85 kg we need.
I can guarantee we have to slightly back load every trip but we've had no instability problems at all.