Nose weight

[Volly]

Hi all, can any one point me in the direction on the EU directive regarding NW, I need to confirm that the NW is deductible from the axle weight, ie, 1500kg van with a NW of 75kg is actually towing 1425kg, a subject perhaps for Prof John.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

Hi all, can any one point me in the direction on the EU directive regarding NW, I need to confirm that the NW is deductible from the axle weight, ie, 1500kg van with a NW of 75kg is actually towing 1425kg, a subject perhaps for Prof John.

hi, not sure of the directive perhaps that is one for the Prof, but essence that is correct the MAM or MTPLM is the vans Max weight, the noseweight can be deducted from this, and is the actual Tow load, because the nose weight is carried by the car and not trailed, it is only really important when calculating the real max train weight, that a car can tow, against the theroretical value, as to add the gross vehicle weight to the MAM of the van you would have added the value of the noseweight twice,

 

[Volly]

Thanks Colin, that's exactly my understanding, but I feel certain that at some point I've read a directive that explains the down load with regards to axle load, but typical, can't find it! & taking a right slating on another forum.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hi all, can any one point me in the direction on the EU directive regarding NW, I need to confirm that the NW is deductible from the axle weight, ie, 1500kg van with a NW of 75kg is actually towing 1425kg, a subject perhaps for Prof John.

Hello Volly,

I am unable to give you the EU directive name and number, but I am certain it comes under the construction and use directives which should define the towed weight and vertical static nose load interactions and the type approval testing.

Whilst I think you know what you are asking, what you have written is technically wrong. The nose weight or load is not part of the axle load it is part of the MTPLM or MAM of the caravan. But the inference of your post is correct.

Now where I must add a note of caution is that if you have a caravan that weighs 1500kg, it doesn't necessarily mean you have a nose load of 75kg, in fact the nose load could be 0 which would mean the whole weight of the caravan is being supported by the road wheels.

To be able to actually use the 75kg in question you would have to make sure by positioning items in the caravan to achieve a genuine 75kg nose load whilst maintaining an axle load of weight of 1425kg.

Whilst this is perfectly possible, it is not easy to achieve with certainty. and as with anything that is using the whole of an available limit, there is an increasing risk that one or more limits may be inadvertently exceeded which could expose you prosecution for overloading.

I must point out that whilst I am certain the above is correct, you should never take what you read on a forum as being gospel, especially where a forum uses nicknames, and you can have no idea about the competency or authority of the contributors. You should always verify the information before acting on it.

Perhaps you could tell us what circumstance have prompted your question?

 

[Volly]

Hello John, thank you for your reply, if you can cast your mind back to sept 2010 (a long time I know, but still retrievable ) this topic was discussed at length with yourself and lutz, with you both insisting that the NW becomes part of the cars payload, I took some convincing, but with investigation on my part proved you both to be correct, ie, caravan loaded to it's maximum in the case of a van with an mtplm of 1500kg, & a NW of 75kg, in essence only 1425 is being trailed, with 75kg being carried by the tow vehicle, I was insistent on keeping strictly to the 1500kg, you both pointed out that that was fine, but I would be loosing out on an extra 75kg payload in the caravan, of course assuming you are within your max train weight & of course not overloading the rear axle of the tow vehicle.

The subject has cropped up on another caravan related forum, with most of the contributors being insistent that you can't load a caravan with a mtplm of 1500kg in excess of that figure, most stating that NW has nothing to do with the caravan axle weight, at some point, not neceserely on this forum, Lutz gave reference of an EC directive that explains it all, and I'm sure I have read it, but can't seem to retrieve it, hope that makes a bit of sence John.

Regards, Allan.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi, I think there is some confusion here, between, the MAM of a caravan and the axle load of a caravan, or tow load,
the way I understand it is, the MAM or MTPLM is absolute and cannot be exceeded if the MTPLM says 1500kg that it that maximum it can weigh so what they are saying is correct,
however the axle load [tow load] would be lower than the MTPLM because of the noseweight, this does not mean the van weight can be increased above the MTPLM but simply that for the purpose of calculating the trailed weight it is deemed to weigh less by the actual value of the noseweight,
an example of this would be where say a car has a max towed weight of 1400kg and a noseweight of 100kg but the owner wishes to tow a caravan with a MTPLM of 1500kg, this would be allowed because the 1500kg MAM minus the 100kg of noseweight would reduce the axle weight and tow load down to 1400kg.
but this is NOT the same as trying to increase the weight over the plated MAM.
I have looked through the archives and could not find the answer you seek however I did find this post from Lutz that was posted nearly 4 years ago .it would seem to contradict what you have read.

""If the caravan weighs 1650kg in total then the car is only pulling 1600kg. The remaining 50kg is being carried as noseweight.
Of course it's not permissible to load a caravan with an MTPLM limit of 1600kg with 1650kg, but that same caravan could be pulled by a car with a 1550kg towload limit so long as the noseweight is equal to or exceeds 50kg. The MTPLM limit is absolute and must never be exceeded.""

 

[Volly]

I'm afraid the details on the type designation plate do not confirm your assumption. On the contrary, they contradict it. According to Regulation 95/48/EC the vehicle manufacturer must state the "towable mass" on the plate and this, according to Annex II Paragraph 2.6. of the same regulation is defined as:
‘Towable mass' means the mass of the trailer towed excluding the vertical load on the coupling point of the towing vehicle.
The same applies to the towbar. The figure shown there is also the 'towable mass' and not the total weight of the trailer.

Read more at http://www.practicalcaravan.com/forum/technical/42841-mtplm-and-nose-weight?start=50#hPYdHexprQX01bLD.99

 

[Volly]

The above as posted by Lutz over 4yrs ago

 

[Volly]

cookieones wrote:
In my case my Volvo can tow a trailer weighing a maximum 1800kg,
This is where the misunderstanding starts. Your Volvo is NOT approved to tow a trailer weighing 1800kg. Your Volvo is approved to tow a trailed weight of 1800kg. There's a big difference.

If you are towing a trailer with an MTPLM of 1800kg you are not making full use of the car's legal capability. You could tow a fully laden trailer with an MTPLM of 1875kg. The trailed weight is 1875 - 75 = 1800kg.

Read more at http://www.practicalcaravan.com/forum/technical/42841-mtplm-and-nose-weight?start=40#30wFks9sUA2eGJDl.99

Once again Lutz is spot on the money "Trailed Weight"

 

[ProfJohnL]

.............
If you are towing a trailer with an MTPLM of 1800kg you are not making full use of the car's legal capability. You could tow a fully laden trailer with an MTPLM of 1875kg. The trailed weight is 1875 - 75 = 1800kg.
...................

Hello Volly,

You are frustratingly close to the answer yet in every post you have made on this subject you have made made a small errors or assumptions and used the wrong components to describe the feature you intend. Your comparing apples to pears, which is not accurate.

The tow vehicles legal towing capacity does not have to dictate the trailers MTPLM. Why, because the tow vehicles limit relates to the actual weight of the trailer not its capacity or MTPLM.

As you have correctly identified as far as the car is concerned, the vertical nose load does not form part of the towed weight, so you can usefully add the nose weight to the tow vehicles permitted towed load. Combined that sets the absolute maximum whole trailer weight the tow vehicle can haul. The difficulty here is knowing what your actual nose load is, becuase if you have calculated and maximised the towcars trailer weight limit based on a 75kg nose load, if you do not have the full 75kg nose load then the difference will appear on the axle load which then exceeds the tow cars limit!

Please note I wrote 'maximum whole trailer weight' this is the trailers actual weight which must always be no greater than the trailers MTPLM. This actually means the trailers MTPLM could be much bigger than the tow vehicles limits, provided the trailer is lightly loaded and as a whole falls within the tow cars limits.

Whilst this is all legally possible, but if you having to look at using these fine detail adjustments to achieve a legal outfit, then you must be working very close to the absolute limits of either car or caravan, and it would all too easy to miscalculate or malload and actually exceed one or more legal limits. Its all very sensitive and open to errors so I would honestly suggest you should look at making some sensible weight reductions or up-sizing tow vehicles.

 

[Volly]

Hi John the info is not for me as I tow a twin @ 82% I was quoting your replies on another forum where the subject has raised its head, all saying you can't load a 1500kg trailer to 1575kg, although 75kg is being carried by the tow vehicle, that's in contradiction to the header In your post where Lutz quotes an MTPLM of 1800kg can be loaded to 1875, with a NW of 75kg resulting in an axle weight of 1800kg.
Caravan trailers are classed as 02, and states : the maximum mass is the static vertical load transmitted to the ground by the axle or axles, of the semi trailer or centre axle trailer when coupled to the towing vehicle and carrying its maximum load, it does not include the load imposed on the towing vehicle through the coupling.

Regards, Allan.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Allan,

In one earlier post you point to:-
http://www.practicalcaravan.com/forum/technical/42841-mtplm-and-nose-weight?start=50

There seems to be a myriad of misunderstanding, both of what the regulations are and of who as written what.

In your own case, you have been quoting other posts, but it has become very unclear which quote is attributed whom. Lost formatting codes in the quoted sections means the the final presentation does not differentiate between quoted material and new original material.

If you note under each post there is a button marked "QUOTE" use this to incorporate all or part the comment you are reading. Leave untouched elements that look like"(quote="Volly" post=404740)cookieones wrote:" at the beginning and [/quote) at the end of the quoted text This will ensure the quote will appear in a shaded text block.

Now to your last post.
The quote itself is not contradictory. Specifically Lutz does not instruct or imply that you can overlaod a trailers MTPLM. He made the point you could use a trailer with a higher MTPLM not the same trailer with an over loaded MTPLM.

At no time did I ever suggested that you can exceed the MTPLM of a trailer, and as far as I can recall Lutz has never suggested it either, so I do not know where you have gained that impression.

I take much care in the composition of my posts, and whilst they are prepared to answer questions on Practical Caravan Forum, I am happy for them to be used elsewhere, providing they are used in full with attribution. Other contributors may be less generous.

 

[Volly]

Hello John, point taken, I would also like to make it absolutely clear that I have never used any of your material or what you quote on any other forums.

To the nitty gritty,

What I am trying to establish is, can a trailer with a MTPLM of 1500kg be loaded to 1575kg assuming a NW of 75kg, thus when coupled to the towing vehicle you will have a weight transfer of 75kg, the result being that the axle weight of the trailer will now be 1500kg when passed over a weighing device as used by VOSA etc, so the trailer now conforms to the plated 1500kg, assuming of course the same stringent method of measuring NW is followed as you always suggest, in my view no offence has been committed, & let's assume that the tow vehicle has a towable load of 2000kg & a NW allowance of 100kg, I would never personally run that close to the maximums. I believe that trailers up to a max of 3500kg are classed as 02, & that clearly states that the down load on the coupling is not included in the down force of the axle weight.

Thanks for being so patient John, & I hope the above makes some sence.

Best regards, Allan.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

What I am trying to establish is, can a trailer with a MTPLM of 1500kg be loaded to 1575kg assuming a NW of 75kg,

No. The MTPLM of a trailer is measured stand-alone with all wheels (jockey and main) on the ground. Several of the replies to you have stated that MTPLM cannot be exceeded.

Edit - From the other thread you've resurrected I see you are still not satisfied after over 4 years.

 

[ProfJohnL]

....................
What I am trying to establish is, can a trailer with a MTPLM of 1500kg be loaded to 1575kg assuming a NW of 75kg,

Volly, Cookieones????????
I am beginning to lose patients here. I feel you have tried to stir up discontent by deliberately reopening a debate under false pretences. I hope the Moderators are watching this issue. They take a dim view of contributors who use multiple names.

You have been given consistent advice in numerous ways, it has been explained extensively both here and in the previous thread, and it appears by your own admission you have received the same advice on other forums.

Once and for all, the advice remains the same NO YOU CAN'T and neither Lutz or I have ever suggested you can.

The mathematical expression is MTPLM > or = (Axle load + Nose load)

Simply you must not exceed the MTPLM of a trailer. The MPTLM is the maximum permitted mass of a trailer standing on its own uncoupled and will be the entire weight the trailer. That is the added loads of both the axle load and any nose load. This combined value must not exceed the MTPLM for the trailer.

How or if the authorities would detect this situation is entirely irrelevant, but they do have their methods. As always it is the responsibility of the driver to ensure their outfit is compliant and legal.

Just a final point there is an important difference between Mass and Load. MTPLM Maximum Technically Permitted Laden Mass, specifically relates to the Mass of the trailer. It is the design and mechanical layout of the trailer and gravity that causes that mass to produce a load. The tow hitch assembly requires a load (not a mass), and that load is generated by distributing the mass in the trailer, so whilst the nose load is applied to the tow ball and becomes part of the tow vehicle's load, the Mass creating the load remains in the trailer.

 

[Volly]

Hello John, not quite the response I was looking for from a seasoned veteran of this forum.

Multiple user names? The only reason I have a different user name is that when they changed the format my log in details were lost and I had to re- register, I'm sure the moderators will veryfy this, so no I'm not resurrecting an old post to creat trouble, and I take offence at the suggestion, if you had taken the time to read my post in it's entirety you will see my view is to air on the side of caution,.

Hands up I had made a fundamental mistake in my calculations, you have now cleared that up and answered my query, and I thank you for that.

At no time have I suggested that yourself or Lutz have given incorrect information.
I posted a genuine query, I did not expect to get verbally abused.
Moderator,s could you please confirm to John that I do not have multiple user names, and that any of my previous user names have been long dead and buried, and with my consent please feel free to forward my email address to John to verifie this, and if possible to avoid any further misunderstandings or unececery accusations would you please remove this post & the previous one in it's entirety.

As a footnote John, hands up I made a mistake with my understanding on weight transfer, I can now see my error, I thank you for your help, but not your accusations, totally uncalled for.
Allan.

 

[Damian]

Having followed this topic I am now of the opinion that it has run its course.
There is no more information to be gained and it is now up to the OP to take or leave the information given, now and in the past.

As a Moderator I am not trawling back through the list of users and when they last posted , or not.
I will not be passing E-Mail addresses to other forum users either.

I am locking this topic .