Noseweight problem??

[Litespeed]

Yesterday I made a crude noseweight gauge for my Abbey (6 berth)from a couple of bits of wood and some bathroom scales.

The weight reading was 120kg - I believe the weight for the Espace is 100kg (or is it 80kg???)

I currently use a 2006 Renault Espace to tow my van - powerwise I have never had an issue and the car and van behave perfectly on the road.

I always load the heavy items (Awning, poles, etc) over the axle. Would it be better to distribute some of the heavier items to the rear to achiev a correct nose wieght, or is this a big no!

The Car / Caravan 85% rule all works out ok, it is just the noseweight issue thats niggling me at the moment.

 

[Viking1]

Simon

Last year I used a noseweight gauge for the fist time. I did not now they did work right at the time.

So I moved a lot of the stuff like the awning and the poles a round and till it was right with the gauge.

When I set off the caravan did not see to be pull right at all so I stop as soon as I cud and moved thing back how I had them.

Do not now if that helps you

Mark

 

[Bri2]

Simon,first thing to check is your permitted nose weight for your vehicle which should be in the hand book if you have it. Most are in the 75-80Kg area. Don't under any circumstance move heavy awnings etc to the rear of the van to enable balance, it will act as a pendulum and give you Instability. Best to put it over the axle or better still carry it in your vehicle as I do if possible. Also re-check just what you have in the front locker, there is usualy space for two gas bottles, a spare tyre etc. If you carry that lot in there, it will push the weight up. I have found I can't carry two full gas bottles along with other bits and bats as it pushes the nose weight over my 80kg limit. If you don't use CLs, you will find you can manage quite a while on a single gas bottle, just weigh it full on some bathroom scales and again after use to get an idea just howmuch you use.

Hope that helps.

Brian

 

[Lutz]

I go along with what Bri has written but the word of warning about not moving loads behind the axle apply only if these loads are close to the rear of the caravan. The effect on stability will be negligible if you find that you need to move something heavy just a short distance, say, about a foot behind the axle to get the correct noseweight. Don't forget to secure the load there so that the noseweight doesn't change while you're driving.

 

[Litespeed]

Thanks so far......

In the front locker I usually carry 1 x 6kg Gas Bottle, 1 x 3kg Bottle. A Beauclaire BBQ, a Bulldog Caravan Leveller, Aqua-roll, Bucket, pegs, Mallets, power leads and Loo Fluids.

Being sensible I could loose the BBq and Leveller to the inside over the axle.

If I am still over weight on the noseweight for my vehicle should I consider changing the car ? Sounds drastic, but not difficult due to my job,I just love the Espace though due to the available space with only 4 seats in it.

What is the harm in carrying over the noseweight, as mentioned, it seems to tow perfectly?

 

[RogerL]

If you ignore the towcar for a moment, the higher the noseweight the more stable the tow.

HOWEVER the noseweight must not exceed the LOWER limit of caravan hitch, towbar, towcar. These limits are set for engineering reasons. Exceeding them is an offence and could a) compromise your safety and/or b) get you prosecuted from a roadside weight check.

To check the noseweight, just put the jockey wheel onto bathroom scales, with some wood to spread the load and with the caravan at it's normal towing attitude.

 

[Guest]

Sorry Roger. Putting the jockey wheel on the scales is not going to give you the correct nose weight. It needs to be taken directly under the towball socket. The extra lenght can amke quite a difference, but I admit it is a damm sight easier. The van should also be at the same angle as when it is hitched to the car.

Simon.

I also have to ask this. Have you actually checked the weight of your van when fully loaded? You might be disappointed at what it shows, as have many of us. Being 85% of your car's kerbweight is fine, as long as the MTLM of the van is not exceeded. Although I have found that all these definitions on weights are about as vague as you can get in real life. What is stated on paper may not be the truth.

 

[Lutz]

The definitions are not vague at all, Scotch Lad. In fact, various EU directives spell out in detail what MIRO, MTPLM, etc. are and how they are to be measured. What is vague, is information on kerbweights. As kerbweight is so specific to each and every vehicle, any published data can only be a guideline and manufacturers usually choose to quote the absolutely lowest possible figure without any options, accessories, etc. Towbars, just as an example, can weigh anything up to about 40kg but this figure is not reflected in any data.

 

[354]

we had a similair problem a few years ago, to solve it I fitted an Alko spare wheel carrier which moved the spare wheel from the front locker to behind the axle. I then cleared out all the junk from the front locker and under the front seats( surprising how much you gathjer) and then moved the heavy items to sit over the axle.

As many have said NEVER move heavy items to thew rear of the van to comensate for the nose weight, if the van wags its tail and you have back loaded , there is a high probability of getting into a snaking situation with disatrous results.

If the nose weight is still heavy try moving some heavy items into the car.

 

[Litespeed]

we had a similair problem a few years ago, to solve it I fitted an Alko spare wheel carrier which moved the spare wheel from the front locker to behind the axle. I then cleared out all the junk from the front locker and under the front seats( surprising how much you gathjer) and then moved the heavy items to sit over the axle.

As many have said NEVER move heavy items to thew rear of the van to comensate for the nose weight, if the van wags its tail and you have back loaded , there is a high probability of getting into a snaking situation with disatrous results.

If the nose weight is still heavy try moving some heavy items into the car.

But surley by putting more items in the car this will cause the rear of the car to sag lower causing the same problem as if the nose of the caravan was to heavy.?

I have a fair amount of spare room in the car.....are you saying its better to load the car rather than the caravan?

 

[RichL812]

We had a noseweight issue too so played around until we got it right. In the locker box there is 1 x 7k blue gas, spare wheel, 1 x small red gas for bbq, kids bats n balls.

What you put where can be influenced by the layout of your van. I have a end toilet and seperate shower with side dinette. The aqua roll / wastemaster go in the shower, lightweight chairs at front, bbq between dinette seats and the awning and poles go over the axle back to the bathroom door.

I have tried all ways to load and have found this to be the better way for my car / combination. It feels extrememly stable and noseweight is spot on.

 

[Lutz]

we had a similair problem a few years ago, to solve it I fitted an Alko spare wheel carrier which moved the spare wheel from the front locker to behind the axle. I then cleared out all the junk from the front locker and under the front seats( surprising how much you gathjer) and then moved the heavy items to sit over the axle.

As many have said NEVER move heavy items to thew rear of the van to comensate for the nose weight, if the van wags its tail and you have back loaded , there is a high probability of getting into a snaking situation with disatrous results.

If the nose weight is still heavy try moving some heavy items into the car.

Yes, it's always best to make full use of the available payload for the car before you start loading the caravan. Just be sure that you don't exceed the car's GVW and make an allowance for the noseweight once the caravan is hitched up because that counts towards the GVW.

The rear of the car can't sag any more when towing than if the car is solo but fully laden because the maximum load is the same, regardless.

 

[Guest]

Lutz,

MRO figures are stated by manufacturers but as they never actually weigh each van as it leaves the production line and as they quote a 5% variance in all their data, this can mean quite a difference to individual vans. To my mind it is absolutely pointless for a manufacturer to quote an available payload to the nearest kilo, when the owner has no idea what the starting weight is in real life., especially when this could result in a legal action, if the van is overweight. He/she can only find that out by weighing their van as and when they collect it from the dealer, and again humidity could make that variable. The only exact figure that can be used is the MTLM, assuming that does not change too much with humidity, and working backwards. It sounds daft, but a trip to the local supermarket can easily add 30 kg of food weight, just try carrying the bags ot the car. So getting a payload exact is just not going to happen. In real life owners of caravans are not going to run to the weighbridge on a monthly basis to ensure their van is correct as far as weight. That is why i feel we are all playing a numbers game without really having the correct data. If all caravans were made with a generous payload then the issue would be unlikely to come up, but as they skin everything to the barest minimum to get sales, we are struggling in many cases to stay legal.

I am always curious to see that the majority of motorhomes have available payloads of 300 kg or even much more, while the caravan with the same number of berths is usually much less. Yes, it is function of chassis, but that should be taken into account when manufacturers make caravans. Australian caravans all have payloads of 400kg as a minimum, but we in a cold climate are expected to work on miniscule amounts. Maybe the Aussies carry more beer? Then again they don't pay 95 pence a litre for fuel, more like 40 pence, so bigger towcars are economic to cope with the weights.

So the answer? Cut fuel taxes, build stronger vans and allow more payload. If life was only so easy.

 

[Lutz]

There is a big difference between motorhomes and caravans in the way weights are important.

Motorhome owners do not have to worry themselves with weight ratios. The only thing that counts for a motorhome is if it is under or over the 3.5 tonne limit that one can drive with a normal car licence. A high gross vehicle weight is therefore not necessarily a criterion that would concern the owner. If the kerbweight is well below 3.5 tonnes, the motorhome manufacturer can make full use of the technical limit imposed by the chassis manufacturer with risking his market share.

With caravans, however, the picture is completely different. The kerbweight is determined by the design and the caravan manufacturer has relatively little opportunity for further weight reduction (without resorting to exotic and expensive materials) if the design is already optimised. Because of the weight restriction imposed by the towcar, the MTPLM of the caravan is a major factor influencing the purchasing decision. Theoretically, the caravan manufacturer could offer considerably higher payloads but this would necessarily increase the MTPLM and then perhaps fewer people would buy the caravan because not enough have a suitable towcar. This could cost the the caravan manufacturer sales. It's therefore a trade-off between higher payload and lower sales.

 

[vi]

We are new to caravanning but are looking forward to collecting our new purchase in the next few weeks. We are buying a small Burstner Belcanto from a dealer in France, as that is where the van will be kept. I have had real problems finding out the noseweight, as it is in none of the literature I have seen yet and the dealer has not replied to emails about this. I have spoken with French customer services at Belcanto (incredibly prompt at getting back to me and seem to be very helpful ) but they asked why I wanted to know. Eventually and after checking they emailled that it was 100kg. Our tow car has a noseweight of 120kg.

Does this mean that the noseweight always has to be 100kg or can it be less? I ask because I have just read this in the Caravan Club magazine of Feb 2006 (page 31):

....if you're minded to use all or most of (the 220kg payload) you'll need to ensure your towcar can accommodate the Club's recommended noseweight figure. In this case that's about 90kg.....

When we collect the caravan and drive away with it does the noseweight have to be 100kg?

I feel really confused when I had thought I understood this and would appreciate some illumination!

 

[Lutz]

For optimum stability, the noseweight should be as high as possible but never more than the lower of the two values specified for car and caravan, respectively. I gather that in your case this would be 100kg. So long as it isn't over that it doesn't matter if you are a little lower. It's not that critical. 90kg would also be OK but try not to let it drop much below that.

 

[vi]

Thanks Lutz, I appreciate your clarity.

I have read that vans to European specs include the weight of the gas cylinders and freshwater tank to 100% of their capacity within the MRO. Does anyone know if this is correct?

 

[Lutz]

There is no European spec for MIRO for caravans (only for motor homes). Each manufacturer can therefore specify MIRO as he sees fit.

 

[BJ]

It is worth looking at the free information on the caravan Club website. See Practical help, New to carravanning OR

http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/NR/rdonlyres/801876BF-A519-46FF-BC4F-F2DF284BD52C/0/TopTwentyCaravanningQuestionsAnswered.pdf