NoseWeight Question

[Andy_374346145]

Hi

I've just spent my first weekend in first caravan (Sterling Eccles Moonstone. Being a 'newbie' I checked my noseweight before setting off to find it was about 110Kg. Everything inside the van was moved over the wheels (or even further back)and all the bits and bobs were taken out of the front locker. The only things in the front locker were two gas bottles (not removable as they're Gaslow fixed re-fillable bottles, and the spare wheel. So....I removed the spare wheel (inot the van at the back,) and still I could only get the noseweight down to 90Kg. The noseweight spec for the caravan is 100Kg so I thought 90 would be OK, but when I checked the towbar recommended weight for the towing vehicle (Toyota Hiace Van 2.5 litre) it recommends the 'drawbar weight 80Kg', so I was still towing 10-15Kg over that. Does anyone else have such difficulty getting the noseweight down and am I missing something. I did tow it back home with the spare back in the front locker and it did seem OK (after talking to many caravanners who said they never check it anyway)but don't wnat to do any damage to the towbar fixing etc. Any advice, or anyone out there with a Sterling Eccles Moonstone I would love to hear from.

Many thanks

Andy

 

[Gary_374358511]

Hi Andy,

We bought a 2004 Sterling Eccles Moonstone just over a week ago. What a lovely van. We must have looked at over 100 caravans that day but nothing grabbed us like the Moonstone. We're well happy with it.

Not sure about your noseweight thing but I will be keeping an eye on this post as I tow with a 2.0 TDCI Mondeo and have been assured by the dealer that I'm well within limits.

Are you happy with your Moonstone Andy. One thing I love about it is just how open and airy it feels. This isn't my first van but it by far the newest I've owned. I love it.

Hope you enjoy as we intend to.

Cheers

Gary

 

[Del_374232870]

It can often take a lot of trial and error to get the nodse weight correct.Firstly you should never "backload" the caravan to reduce the nose weight. Always keep heavy items a near as possible to the axle, heavy items to far to the rear can cause instability and in the event of a snake cause a pendulam affect.

Regarding the spare whee, we have an underslung carrier which attatches to the chasis just to the rear of the axle.

What are you carrying in the front bed lockers, also is the water system fully drained , as often the water heater is at the front .

Regarding the nose weight reading , was the van level when the reading was taken and where was gauge on thge drwbar when you took the reading?

 

[Rod_5041370]

And do remember that towing an outfit on the public roads where the nose-weight is in excess of that specified for the caravan hitch or the car towbar is an offence.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Andy,

Nose weight is often a thorny issue, but as there legalities involved it is important to get it right.

Both the car and the caravan manufacture will specify the maximum nose load that their respective products will handle. If one limit is lower than the other, that is the one you must abide by. If you exceed it your outfit is illegal, and consequently your insurance will be invalid.

Measuring the nose load correctly is also important:. To measure the nose load the car and the caravan must be on horizontal ground as slopes will affect the reading.

With the caravan connected to the car, measure how high the hitch is from the ground.

Disconnect the caravan and arrange to measure the down force at the hitch, but with the hitch at the same height as if it were connected to the car. This is your nose load.

As for changing the the nose load, this can only be done by rebalancing the loading of your items.

I have yet to find an outfit that cannot be correctly set.

 

[ProfJohnL]

It can often take a lot of trial and error to get the nodse weight correct.Firstly you should never "backload" the caravan to reduce the nose weight. Always keep heavy items a near as possible to the axle, heavy items to far to the rear can cause instability and in the event of a snake cause a pendulam affect.

Regarding the spare whee, we have an underslung carrier which attatches to the chasis just to the rear of the axle.

What are you carrying in the front bed lockers, also is the water system fully drained , as often the water heater is at the front .

Regarding the nose weight reading , was the van level when the reading was taken and where was gauge on thge drwbar when you took the reading?

Hi Del,

A caravan does not have to be level when the nose load is measured. It does have to be on level ground, but the hitch must be at the same height as when it is hitched to the car.

These circumstances may mean the caravan is not level.

 

[Mike_5040866]

It amazes me what I see in front lockers

I towed with no trouble last year with a few bits, 2 4.5 Kg gas bottles and spare wheel

Checked nose weight and found it at over 100Kg, my limit is 75Kg

Reduced it by removing 1 gas bottle and spare wheel all ok now.

Yet you see vans with 2 big bottles, spare wheel and bits bet they have not checked.

Nobody wants to find out the hard way, but how many take notice??

 

[Lutz]

It does depend on the model, though. I have an 11kg and a 5kg gas bottle, the spare wheel, 60m of cable, 4 wooden chocks used for levelling, and a hydraulic jack in the front locker but no trouble in maintaining 75kg noseweight.

 

[Rod_5041370]

With just two 6Kg bottles and the spare wheel in the locker I have trouble in reaching 50Kg noseweight, so everything bar the "kitchen sink" goes in to reach 75/80Kg.

It's all down to "A" frame length.

My car permissible noseweight is 150Kg and the "A" frame/hitch is 100Kg.

 

[Andy_374346145]

Hi

Thanks Gary yes very pleased with the caravan. Went to get a nice old cheap one but glad to have ended up with the Moonstone.....very nice.

John L

Thank you for that. That's the most thorough description of actually taking the noseweight that i've seen. When i measured it i used the noseweight gauge I have which sits on the ground and you then lower the caravan by means of the jockey wheel onto it. What I wasn't aware of is that you only lower it to the level of the hitch you have already measured when connected to the towbar. Obviously as I just kept lowering it to it's lowest point till it stopped it just kept going. I will certainly take your advice and get on a hard level surface, do the measuring thing and try again. Thank you for that.

Andy

Mike

Like i said my gas bottles are fixed and connected together in a changeover and filler system as they are refillable so removing them is not an option.

Del

Front bed lockers have very light items underneath, water system is drained. One disadvantage of my van seems to be the fact that the battery locker is at the front. All the other stuff, awning, ground sheet, aquarolls, waste etc was over the axle or just behind it. It looks as though my 'measuring technique' was in question as I didn't know to lower the hitch only to the level it's at when hitched up, I just lowered the hitch onto the noseweight gauge till it stopped.....so will try again.

Thank you all for advice.

Andy

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Andy,

Your last posting probably explains why you were getting an excessive reading. The lower the tow hitch the greater the down force will be. Conversely if you lift a tow hitch up the down force diminishes, and in some cases it is possible to lift the nose so far that the tail of the caravan actually sits on the floor, and you can let it hitch go, and it stays pointing in the air!

 

[WMRussell]

If you do not wind the jockey wheel up until it is iff the ground and all the weight is on the nose weight gauge, you are not getting a proper reading. The gauge must be inserted into the hitch, all legs wound up off the ground and the jockey wheel wound up off the ground, by doing this you are getting an accurate reading of the weight applied to the tow ball.

 

[Legsmaniac_374344731]

Russell is right, the jockey wheel has to be off the ground otherwise the jockey wheel is supporting some of the weight and an incorrect reading will result. After all, you don't tow with the jockey wheel on the ground. It's not a good idea inserting the gauge into the hitch though as damage to the stabiliser pad might occur.

I'm not sure I agree with "The lower the tow hitch the greater the down force will be" because the force of gravity - 9.81m/s/s - remains the same whatever angle the hitch is (past level). However, you could get a better reading by cutting a piece of wood the length of the height of the towball from the road, minus the depth of a set of bathroom scales. Now use the bathroom scales with this piece of wood placed upon and under the hitch and raise the jockey wheel until it's just off (and clear of) the ground.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Russell & Legsmaniac

I admit that I did not say that the jockey wheel should be raised to allow the whole force of the nose weight to be applied to the measure, I hoped that would be obvious to the reader.

AS for the height of the jockey wheel affecting the applied load, I can assure you it does. I deliberately did not go into a full description, but if you require an explanation please read on.

As you say Gravity is a constant and it accelerates masses vertically towards the centre of the earth. And that is important, as horizontal displacements of forces acting on a beam will create a turning force.

A caravan acts like the beam of a see-saw with the main axle forming the fulcrum. The same applies to twin axles, though the dynamics with dual fulcrums are even more complicated. So this description uses the example of a single axle van only.

It is required that a caravan should exert a downward force at its hitch, and this is achieved by distributing the load in the caravan. What is actual happening is that the caravans centre of gravity (CoG) is being shifted to a position just in front of the main axle. This shares the weight of the caravan between the tow hitch and the wheels.

What may not be so clear is the fact that the CoG does not lie at the level of the axle but usually has some altitude above it. Once a caravan has been loaded and no other alterations are made, then the CoG will remain at the same position within the caravan. It would be possible to put a mark on the side wall of a caravan to represent the horizontal width ways axis of the CoG

Now the hitch down force is directly related to the horizontal distance between the CoG and main axle. If the distance grows the nose force grows and conversely if the distance is shortened the force reduces. If the distance is zero, or the CoG is vertically above the axle then the nose load is zero.

Now given the condition where no change is made to the loading of items in the caravan, then the CoG spot on the side of the van becomes fixed. As it is also above the axle, the if the caravan has its attitude changed, then the spot will describe an arc about the main axle.

If the hitch is lowered, the caravan tips forward. By doing so the spot describes an arc towards the front of the caravan, and the horizontal distance between the spot and the axle increases. This in turn causes an increase in the nose load. Conversely, if the hitch s raised, the CoG spot arcs towards the rear of the caravan, and the horizontal distance is reduced with a corresponding reduction in nose load. It also follows that if there is sufficient freedom to tip the caravan further back, it may be possible for the CoG spot to pass over the axle and thus the caravan will start to lift the hitch.

From this it may also be understood that by adding extra mass to the rear of a caravan it may tip but what you have actually done is affect the horizontal position of the caravans CoG.

 

[gary]

This question of the van being level has come up many times, the truth it it make a big difference to the noseweight.

Apart from Johns eloquent description, I tend to put it like this;

The van has height as well as length and the relative light weight near the roof moves forward further than at floor level as the van tips forward, this then having a disproportionate effect on the C of G to it's actual weight.

 

[Legsmaniac_374344731]

It's a long time since I did Physics at School so I'll bow to John L's description for now. From what I remember, given the see-saw scenario, if you imagine a 100Kg weight on one end (which we will call the back end) and a 175Kg weight on the other end (which we will call the front end, or the A Frame end) the weight will always be 75Kg from anything past level given the CoG.

It's like lifting a 1Kg bag of sugar. Hold the 1Kg bag of sugar with arms at the side of you and you can comfortably do it. Now hold the bag of sugar with arms outstretched and the bag of sugar feel heavier. Yet the bag of sugar STILL weighs 1Kg.

 

[RogerL]

If the caravan is tilting down at the front, the centre of gravity being somewhere above the wheel axis, moves forward relative to the wheel axis causing an increase in measured noseweight.

 

[john_374359031]

This noseweight problem seems to be cropping up more and more on modern British vans.

Surely its down to the manufacturers to sort out,I keep reading lately about new vans without any kit added being pretty weighty on the noseweight.to start with!.

Simply extend the A frame like the Germans do,add stability and leverage at the expence of a slower turn when reversing.

 

[Dustydog]

I confess I do not use the nose weight guage every trip. I always load all the heavvy stuff low down axles and unless some odd loading has to happen I can pretty well judge I am in the right ball park. Experience has shown me that the the effort I need to exert on the jockey wheel winder gives a good feel for too heavy or too light a nose weight.

I must emphasise this is absolutely based on the same loading of items time after time. If we add anything particularly heavy, eg 24 cans of lager than I do check with the guage but in honesty have never found much difference. It's always around 90-100kgs . I tow with a Sorento and she has self levelling suspension and all seems fine.

I wonder why manufacturers don't give the noseweight of their caravans when empty , but including two full bottle sgas and a leisure battery. That would help in appreciating the overall balance before loading?

Cheers

Alan

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello John,

All the manufactures can do is to establish by luck or design, the nose weight of the caravan in its ex factory state.

As soon as you add anything to the caravan, the nose weight changes.

 

[Iain_5062081]

@ Legsmanic

'A' level physics was a long, long time ago and I seem to remember I failed it as well. Not something todays generation seem to have encountered.

Your 1Kg bag of sugar is a mass. You need to consider the force exerted by the mass, which is what the nose guage reads. Force = mass * distance (I think).

You have no idea how much my brian hurts after dredging that up!

Iain

 

[alaintaylor]

In all honesty, how many people check the nose weight regularly. We generally carry the same things in the same place each trip and get complacent about noseweight, yes?

Here's a tip, but heed the warning:

50kg is what an old bag of cement or farmyard bag of potatoes or fertilizer used to weigh (1 hundredweight or cwt or 112 lbs - roughly anyway, they are rarely sold in those weights now because our mumsey government HSE people say that's too heavy to lift). So an easy check each time you hitch up - just try lifting the tow bar by hand. If you can lift it easily it's definitely too light, if you don't have a hope in 'ell then it's too heavy.

Warning - this is a scale for fit men only, ladies or elderly, sorry, but don't even try it, and fit men - lift properly and watch where your feet are when the jocky wheel spins round!

 

[ProfJohnL]

It's a long time since I did Physics at School so I'll bow to John L's description for now. From what I remember, given the see-saw scenario, if you imagine a 100Kg weight on one end (which we will call the back end) and a 175Kg weight on the other end (which we will call the front end, or the A Frame end) the weight will always be 75Kg from anything past level given the CoG.

It's like lifting a 1Kg bag of sugar. Hold the 1Kg bag of sugar with arms at the side of you and you can comfortably do it. Now hold the bag of sugar with arms outstretched and the bag of sugar feel heavier. Yet the bag of sugar STILL weighs 1Kg.

Hi Legs,

Your point would be true if the CoG lies in the plane of the beam, but as RogerL and others reinforces, the CoG of a caravan is above the fulcrum and it describes an arc as the beam swings - it really does make a big difference!