Noseweights - help!

[ProfAlGoogle]

There is an error in each of the statements in Cookieone's reply above

Very interesting Lutz, the above information was taken from the Baileys owners 2010 manuel section 2 .2.3 / 4 / 7 Perhaps Bailey could be brought to task if an accident were to ocur using there recomendations?

Allan.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Allan,

The law places the responsibility of ensuring a road vehicle is safe and legal on the driver. If an outfit is not compliant it is the driver not the manufacturer who is responsible.

Ignorance of the law is not a defence.

Blaming a third party for supplying inaccurate information is not a defence either.

Whilst it may seem daft, the manufacture cannot be held responsible for any RTI.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Hello John, surly in that case there should be a disclaimer?
I think it can all get a bit to technical if you look to deep in to it in some respects, we have Lutz recommending that nose weight be measured at hitch height, but that in it`s self is variable due to road undulations, in my own case I aim to reach 75 kg with the van on a level road, with the van level to the eye. That also reminds me I recently bought (last year) a Reich nose weight gauge, the type that fits on to the ball, and to be quiet honest John it is the most inaccurate piece of equipment imaginable, and I must return it and seek a refund............back to the tried and trusted bathroom scales

Allan.

 

[Lutz]

..... we have Lutz recommending that nose weight be measured at hitch height, but that in it`s self is variable due to road undulations, in my own case I aim to reach 75 kg with the van on a level road, with the van level to the eye.
Allan.

I'm not recommending that noseweight be measured at hitch height. That is how noseweight is defined in the applicable EU Directive 94/20/EC.

 

[TD42]

In my case the plated Miro is 1150 & the mtplm is 1350 on my 4 berth van =200kg payload how ever my local weigh bridge puts it at 1240kg with only the mover & 85 AH battery on board which leaves very little spare actual payload

regarding noseweights my CAR has a 75kg noseweight so this what i aim for .If the 75kg caravan noseweight was obtained with the van level,& the caravan hitch was HIGHER than my car tow ball then the noseweight of the caravan would exceed the 75 kg when hitched
which is why i measure it with the van hitch at the same height of my car tow ball
The law requires a noseweight of 25kg or 4% . 7% is a recommendation the same as the 85% car/van ratio

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Secondly, the caravan should not be horizontal when measuring noseweight, but it should be standing on level ground and with the coupling at the same height as if it were hitched to the car

Thats how it read to me Lutz, apologies if I have got it wrong, Bailey seem to be misleading there customers with incorrect information, such a large company really should know better!

 

[xtrailman]

The difference in nose weight between level and nose down is very little, so unless you load to the nose limit, it is of little concern.
Do your own test and see.

 

[xtrailman]

.
Fourthly, even if the towbar is at the correct height within the prescribed tolerances, the caravan could, under certain conditions, have a slight nose up attitude.

The Bailey handbook says " do not tow nose up"

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Allan,

I'm sorry if you find this topic comedic, it is not, as getting it wrong may result in points on your licence!

Taking your points in order:

"surly in that case there should be a disclaimer"

I do not have a Bailey so I cannot comment on their specific documentation, but it is usually the case that most manufacture do include a disclaimer or the phrase 'E&OE'.

"I think it can all get a bit to technical if you look to deep in to it in some respects".
This subject by its nature is a technical subject, and by glossing over the technicalities, errors and misunderstandings arise.

"We have Lutz recommending that nose weight be measured at hitch height,"

Lutz has already defended his position on that one.

"but that in it`s self is variable due to road undulations, in my own case I aim to reach 75 kg with the van on a level road, with the van level to the eye."

If you achieve 75Kg with the caravan level, then you hitch up and the nose drops so the caravan is actually nose down, then the hitch load actually increases, so your 75Kg max is now greater and exceeds the specification for your cars tow hitch. That is why the nose load must be measured at the same hitch height as when it is hitched to the car in towing configuration, nose up, level or down.

"That also reminds me I recently bought (last year) a Reich nose weight gauge, the type that fits on to the ball, and to be quiet honest John it is the most inaccurate piece of equipment imaginable, and I must return it and seek a refund............back to the tried and trusted bathroom scales"

All the commercial units I have seen, do not inspire confidence in their ability to accurately display the nose load of my trailers either through the coarseness of their graduations, and/or lack of height adjustment, and no certificate of calibration.

We have to abide by the law, which over-rides any recommendations made by a manufacturer.

 

[Lutz]

The Bailey handbook says " do not tow nose up"

Regulations require the towball to be between 350 and 420mm above the ground. The same regulation stipulates that the coupling shall be between 395 and 465mm above the ground when the caravan is standing horizontal. Consequently, if the towball is at top tolerance (420mm), as may be the case with a fairly empty car, and the caravan on bottom tolerance (395mm), which could also be the case when fully laden, then it would be standing slightly nose up when hitched to the car and yet everything would be within the specified limits.
If the Bailey handbook says "do not tow nose up" then one would expect them to explain why. As they apparently don't, their statement is open to question.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Hello Allan,

I'm sorry if you find this topic comedic, it is not, as getting it wrong may result in points on your licence!

Taking your points in order:

"surly in that case there should be a disclaimer"

I do not have a Bailey so I cannot comment on their specific documentation, but it is usually the case that most manufacture do include a disclaimer or the phrase 'E&OE'.

"I think it can all get a bit to technical if you look to deep in to it in some respects".
This subject by its nature is a technical subject, and by glossing over the technicalities, errors and misunderstandings arise.

"We have Lutz recommending that nose weight be measured at hitch height,"

Lutz has already defended his position on that one.

"but that in it`s self is variable due to road undulations, in my own case I aim to reach 75 kg with the van on a level road, with the van level to the eye."

If you achieve 75Kg with the caravan level, then you hitch up and the nose drops so the caravan is actually nose down, then the hitch load actually increases, so your 75Kg max is now greater and exceeds the specification for your cars tow hitch. That is why the nose load must be measured at the same hitch height as when it is hitched to the car in towing configuration, nose up, level or down.

"That also reminds me I recently bought (last year) a Reich nose weight gauge, the type that fits on to the ball, and to be quiet honest John it is the most inaccurate piece of equipment imaginable, and I must return it and seek a refund............back to the tried and trusted bathroom scales"

All the commercial units I have seen, do not inspire confidence in their ability to accurately display the nose load of my trailers either through the coarseness of their graduations, and/or lack of height adjustment, and no certificate of calibration.

We have to abide by the law, which over-rides any recommendations made by a manufacturer.

Hi John, @ 75kg noseweight my van sits perfectly level on the ball of my car, hence when I measure the noseweight on the bathroom scales I do so by sight of eye, or as Bailey recommend, with the caravan floor horizontal, it has worked for me for over 40 yrs of towing, and in my opinion the advice offered in the Bailey manual is of sound value,

I'm sorry if you find this topic comedic, it is not, as getting it wrong may result in points on your licence!
Quite right John all the more reason for people to read and follow the advice given in the owners manual, instead of some of the inconsistencies that can be found from some of the posters advice on these and other forums, although given with all good intension's, but as you point out, it is your licence and your responsibility.

We have to abide by the law, which over-rides any recommendations made by a manufacturer
The manufacturer also has to abide by the law, would not do there sales much good if it were found that there recommendations were not of sound value, again in my opinion the advice/recommendations they offer in there comprehensive owners manual is of sound value for the first time novice, through to the more experienced amongst us, and written in a language most can understand, and will keep them on the right side of the law.

 

[Lutz]

I wouldn't put as much blind faith in owner's manuals as you, Cookieones. I've seen some pretty misleading information published in quite a few. I get the impression that some of the writers have more journalistic experience than technical knowledge. A very common mistake is to state that the towload is the same as the total weight of the caravan and hence to incorrectly compare maximum permissible towload with the MTPLM of the caravan.
If your caravan sits level at 75kg noseweight then this can only apply for a particular loading condition. Because of suspension travel, a empty caravan will always sit higher than a fully laden one so if it is level in one condition it can't be in another.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Thats a fair comment Lutz, only the two of us so my load criteria never really changes to much, so I tend to sit level when coupled up, having items strategically placed in the same place trip after trip gives me a good indication that my nose weight is within tolerance, with a check being carried out on the outward journey to confirm all is well, funny enough in all my years of towing, I have yet to see any one leaving a site check there nose weight, (hence the reason for buying the Reich gauge) or the tyres of the towing vehicle.

Allan.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Allan,

This will be my last posting on this aspect in this topic.

The issue in this topic comes about because people seem intent on trying to use the last gramme of load capacity.

The fact that they are using up the capacity and are now working so close to the limits any sloppiness in checking will lead some of them to actually overload.

This is serious, not only does it compromise the legality of their outfit, it also means their insurance may not cover them. Heaven forbid that an over load car or caravan is involved in a incident where major damage results or worse someone is injured or killed.

The law always supersedes other instructions, including manufactures instructions.

In your own case, just having look right is no guarantee of it being right. If your nose load is 75Kg which is right on your top legal limit, I seriously doubt that you can accurately and consistently be sure just by looking at the attitude of your caravan that it is 75Kg, what if its 80Kg or more.

History has shown that as regulation creeps further into what we consider our private lives, traditional habits are no longer adequate. We often have to start working to higher and tighter standards.

Enjoy your caravanning

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Hello Allan,

This will be my last posting on this aspect in this topic.

The issue in this topic comes about because people seem intent on trying to use the last gramme of load capacity.

The fact that they are using up the capacity and are now working so close to the limits any sloppiness in checking will lead some of them to actually overload.

This is serious, not only does it compromise the legality of their outfit, it also means their insurance may not cover them. Heaven forbid that an over load car or caravan is involved in a incident where major damage results or worse someone is injured or killed.

The law always supersedes other instructions, including manufactures instructions.

In your own case, just having look right is no guarantee of it being right. If your nose load is 75Kg which is right on your top legal limit, I seriously doubt that you can accurately and consistently be sure just by looking at the attitude of your caravan that it is 75Kg, what if its 80Kg or more.

History has shown that as regulation creeps further into what we consider our private lives, traditional habits are no longer adequate. We often have to start working to higher and tighter standards.

Enjoy your caravanning

only the two of us so my load criteria never really changes to much, so I tend to sit level when coupled up, having items strategically placed in the same place trip after trip gives me a good indication that my nose weight is within tolerance, with a check being carried out on the outward journey to confirm all is well, funny enough in all my years of towing, I have yet to see any one leaving a site check there

Am I missing something here John? Think we now need to call a halt, as we are at the hair spliting stage.

Kind regards Allan.