Ohh dear VW what have you done?

[MichaelE]

As surely most of you have read VW have been rigging their emission readings on their TDi engines?
From what i have read VW will recall the 11 million vehicles affected, apparently the trade off for getting the emissions down is performance and economy which would devalue the car?
My son owns a GTD and who knows if this is affected? i have read also that you may be able to reject the car if it has the rogue software.
I cannot believe that the biggest car maker in the world has had to cheat and lie to get emissions down , i have a feeling there maybe an influx of used VW diesels hitting the used market very soon , if this happens VW's and some Audi used prices will plummet as supply will exceed demand.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The form the emissions test takes has been well known for years, and the evidence of the Real MPG campaign has ably demonstrated the official test regime produces very different figure to what most drivers can expect to achieve in real driving.

I have always assumed the car manufacturers will tune their vehicles to achieve the best test results to make them more tax efficient, so this news about VW is not a particular big deal for me.

I am confident in the light of the VW findings, we will discover that other manufacturers will have done something very similar.

Does it worry me? Yes and no

No because as far as the current reports suggest this software issue only affects the way the cars were assessed in the USA, and not Europe,

And Yes because if it does have an impact on the European cars, so many people use the fuel consumption and emission figures as part of their justification to purchase a particular model, if those figures are changed puting vehicles into different tax brackets then as Michael suggests we are likely to see large quantities of the vehicles being put up for sale.

The bigger concern for me, is that when I changed my car two years ago for a 2.0L TDI SEL 170 (PDF) VW Passat, it had a Diesel Particulate Filter as standard. As a result of the short journeys I need to do for my disabled wife, the engine seems to go into a DPF regeneration mode about every 200 miles. Living where I do, there are few roads where I can a get up to the prescribed 42 to 45mph to get enough hot gasses through the filter. I have to make a special journey of about 25 miles which rather negates the supposed better fuel efficiency of the diesel engine!

So it looks like next car will have to have a petrol engine.

 

[MichaelE]

I think there is a big difference between tuning the vehicle permanently or using software to alter the emissions only when being tested?
MPG has always been up in the air as there are reports of them using special tyres, lubricates and taping up gaps etc .
You would presume if car produced say x amount emissions then it wouldn't produce up to 40 times that during normal operation?

 

[saint-spoon]

My understanding of such things is that the traditional tuning no longer has any part of the engine management, it is all done via the engine management system. Essentially in every new car there is a programmable logic controller (PLC) which constantly monitors all aspects of the cars performance from the engine temperature to the gas emissions fuel demand from the accelerator pedal and so on. This PLC also controls the flow of fuel to the engine and timing of the ignition sparks for the petrol engine and fuel injection timing. By adjusting the settings within the program it is possible to change the output emissions and adjust the power. I have had a bit of experience of PLCs employed for other purposes and it is not that difficult to reprogram them or to even adjust the program so long as you have access, which in this case the manufacturer obviously has. But you can’t over ride them unless you start tampering with the sensors and as they control every aspect of the modern vehicle (even the volume on your radios is often controlled by them; hence there is a feature where they automatically get louder as the car speeds so as to account for road noise) it is not a good idea.

 

[Kate Taylor]

The Volkswagen emissions scandal in the US is a shock, and where does it leave us here in the UK and Europe? Click here for advice from Practical Caravan's Tow Car Editor David Motton.

 

[seth1]

Its the Nox output that has been affected.EPA accepts an output of 50grams per 100 km of distance if i understand it correctly.Under EPA testing an output of 450grams per 100 km has been found.
All makers have more than one fuelling map in an EDC control unit,it would appear VW have a dynometre map also,like others do, maybe the EU testing was carried out in this mode .We have stuff from 15 years ago with dyno modes programmed in the control unit,its not new.But from what i can gather certain components have been flashed disabled.
VAG certainly have worrys with their engines,i expect if the said components were enabled there would be alot of warranty claims or a massive amount of engine power detuning.You cant get a pint from a half pint glass.VAG also had massive problems with the 170hp tdi blocking the dpf,s.The answer was to derate them to 150hp on the first service??????
But what i find funny is how surprised everyone is.Amazing how brain washed people are over a badge.

 

[JonnyG]

sigh. NOX the word you should be looking for is NOX nitrous oxide .like the prof said the mpg bit, forget and forget the CO bit as well its all about NOX .In California they are more concerned with NOX readings and diesels aren't anywhere near as good as petrol cars, so it seems VW came up with a way to get there NOX reading down and so sell there diesel cars in California and several other states who follow California's lead.. Note our regulations are NOX are nowhere near as strict and indeed the only time this deceptive trick would come into play would be under "testing mode" and not under normal driving mode.secondly you need to understand that NOX and CO are in a way at opposite ends of a spectrum.. knock your NOX reading down and your CO will go up and vice versa and as CO,which is linked to MPG is more important in Europe then you can be dam sure this deceptive trick VW did, did not effect MPG out on the road. the reason why so many cars do not get anywhere near their claimed MPG figures is a totally different subject ..

 

[seth1]

VW Ceo, Martin winterkorn resigns.To top it all of,the German government suposedly knew about the fiddle.Seems most Euro 6 VW tdi are not fit for purpose.

 

[JonnyG]

hi seth think i will hold judgement till i come across some proper data. If the VW's still pass our [ EU] NOX readings with the trick system removed. Also bare in mind its know that most manufactures manipulate things one way or another. If VW have to do recalls in the EU because they cannot pass our NOX readings then the whole car manufacturers could be in trouble not just VW... Noticed that the cars that are effected are diesel Audi/VW .. no mention of Seat or Skoda that could be because they are not sold in the US? or it could mean their ECU's differ will be interesting to know which it is..

 

[seth1]

The data is there for everyone to see Jonny.EPA have done the tests,cut and dried, a CEO doesnt resign for nothing.The vehicles will pass the EU limits seemingly fine without the "trick" system.Problems seems to be if the "trick" system is not enabled the problems arise.
Speaking with someone today its connected to egr opening times and urea dosage quantitys.I understood that as to keep egr opening time parametres to a minimum to save inlet manifold clogging and urea dosage parametres over a certain rpm,thats is for the "trick" system.
Very unfair on other manufacturers.

 

[JonnyG]

hi seth.. but the trick system is only engaged in test mode ? that's been made clear so IF the cars still pass the EU emission test without the system engaged and frankly how can that be known yet ? but if soo where is the problem for us here in the EU?

 

[MichaelE]

If it they can pass without the trick system then all good, but at the moment they don't know if the system did kick in during tests? That's why they are saying 11 millions cars could be affected?
They are talking major lawyer involvement in the states even buying the cars back, if its proven that happened in Europe many more cars are involved.
They are saying that other manufactures could sure VW for loss of sales because people chose a VW with low emissions? Could only happen in America?

 

[seth1]

Err no Jonny .The "trick "system is used for the rest of the vehicles life.Thats why the nox is through the roof.At the Eu test all the emmision systems are enabled.It then passes the test.In service they are disabled in another map.The "trick" system as you call it.Very little egr and very little urea equals large nox.Thats my take on it.Its bad news.

 

[seth1]

Believe this or not,American diesel technolegy was at the forefront long before anyone else.I can remember being in a conferance with a German manufacturer who at the time was debating on fitting USA engines along side their own which funnily enough were rubbish.The german proudly explained of the 90 adjustible electronic features and parametres of their engine whilst the yank rolled about on the floor.He then came back with we have 400.Its a bit of a mess as it comes to light.

 

[Dustydog]

USA litigators seem to have a passion for taken Europeans to the cleaners.
BP's oil spillage says it all. And that was a US rig on "loan".
VW have pledged billions to resolve the issue.
So why is Europe not reacting? Are we a dustbin or are the Yanks going OTT?
The upside is there may be some great future bargains coming onto the
market soon.

 

[saint-spoon]

Reading more into it, the program in question sensed when the car was being tested; certain things like running at a prescribed number of engine revolutions with the steering wheel not moving and out of gear and so on told the engine management system to derate the engine so as to reduce emmissions and get around the emissions regulations. Outside of these specific parameters the engine ran normally giving the higher performance and fuel economy. This is obviously something that couldn’t happen by accident, it was a deliberate move to mask the fact that the engine could not produce the power and still keep within the emissions threshold.

 

[Raywood]

It is disgraceful but I do wonder if it is the tip of the iceberg and most or all other manufacturers are doing something similar. Time will tell but I think diesel sales will suffer at least in the short term and the government might just use it as an excuse to increase tax on diesel and diesel cars and cities bring in a diesel charge.

 

[Parksy]

 

[Gafferbill]

.......so the millions of big American V8's using petrol at £0.33 per litre are not polluting?

Sorry.......they don't have petrol do they.......they use non polluting gasoline !

 

[ProfJohnL]

It is disgraceful but I do wonder if it is the tip of the iceberg and most or all other manufacturers are doing something similar. Time will tell but I think diesel sales will suffer at least in the short term and the government might just use it as an excuse to increase tax on diesel and diesel cars and cities bring in a diesel charge.

I am almost certain we will find that other manufacturers have done very similar things to get their vehicles through these very artificial tests. We only have confirmation that this practice has occurred in the USA so far!, and we have been told that the EU tests are carried out differently and would not be fooled by the USA tweek. I remain sceptical about that claim but it remains to be seen.

 

[ProfJohnL]

An item on the BBC lunchtime news now strongly hints that VW may have also used ecu programming to affect their performance figures for some EU tests.

It also reported that a BMW car produces 11x (I think) amount of emmisions indicated by its statutory tests.

Its beginning to look like VW are not alone in this matter.

 

[Parksy]

The real scandal as far as I'm concerned is not the use of clever software by VW and possibly other manufacturers to produce emission test figures to please the tree huggers but the constant references to 'global warming' based on disputed unproven 'evidence'.
The so-called evidence is based on computer models which are tweaked to produce the 'correct' end result but to my mind the environmental lobby is used to create demand for new vehicles and to levy higher rates of tax on older ones.
As Bill mentioned, the Americans use gas guzzling vehicles, they have giant domestic refrigerators in their homes, air conditioning and central heating systems that would make an ice cave too warm.
Meanwhile the Chinese continue to build coal fired power stations and their manufacturing processes make any emissions from the VW cars affected negligible.
I think that the VW scandal will quietly disappear when the next big news story arrives.

 

[seth1]

Thats quite true but the main difference being,the gas guzzlers,chinese,indians,what ever ,are not claiming to be clean,VW are.Very amusing.

 

[Parksy]

Thats quite true but the main difference being,the gas guzzlers,chinese,indians,what ever ,are not claiming to be clean,VW are.Very amusing.

My point was that if it were not for the tree huggers and global warmist zealots there would have been no need for VW to cheat.

 

[ProfJohnL]

..................
I think that the VW scandal will quietly disappear when the next big news story arrives.

I'm not so sure.

If cars have been assessed as low emission, The Govt have lost out on the VED tax revenues. If this proves to be a significant number, I can see the Govt, re evaluating the VED rating for these cars, and then claiming the lost tax back from owners. Watch this space.........