Payload

[Lonesome-Whizkid]

Hi, I'm just newly joined the PCv forum and wanted to ask my first question.

What exactly is payload? Is this the downwards weight applied to the towbar?

 

[Grahamh]

No that's noseweight I believe. Payload is the difference between MRO(Mass In Running Order) and MTLP which is the maximum weight alowed. One odd thing (for me anyway) is that you take the noseweight away from the all up weight of the van as that part of the load is carried by the towing vehicle and not the van.
HTH's

 

[Parksy]

Hi and welcome to the forum.
Payload is the weight of items not fitted to your caravan. These are personal effects such as clothing, crockery cutlery and bedding plus lpg canisters and the leisure battery. The downwards weight applied to the towbar is known as noseweight.
Click Here for a caravan jargon buster

 

[Mel]

Hi Lonesome. Welcome to the forum. Its what Parksy and Graham said. It means that you can't just shove as much stuff in your van as the cupboards will hold and think that you will be OK. Really you ought to take your van to a weighbridge when fully loaded to check that you haven't exceeded the MPTLM (Maximum permissable Towable laden mass) as indicated on the plate somewhere on your van. Not many caravanners actually do go to the weighbridge

Good question, keep asking them.
mel

 

[Lonesome-Whizkid]

Thanks for your answers guys, I don't yet have a van, but learning before purchasing one hense joining the PCv. I have been using www.towcar.info and trying to get a good match before going ahead and jumping in, I really like the Kia Sportage 2.0CRDi 4x4 2006 model, Does anyone know whether this is a reliable towcar, Am I making a good choice, Ive matched it to an Avondale Dart 630 which comes back at 81%, One more Question I have is, What is towball limit @ 75kg, Is this question relivant to my first question about payload? or is that relivant to the noseweight?

 

[Mel]

The 75kg relates to the noseweight. This is the downward force that the towhitch puts on the towball. You measure this with a noseweight gauge or a DIY gauge made from a bit of wood and a bathroom scale. The noseweight will vary depending on how you load the caravan. If you put all the stuff to the front of the axle this will increase the noseweight. If you put the stuff to the back of the axle this will reduce the noseweight. Read the guidance on safe loading of a van. (Heavy things on the floor over the axle etc) and then you adjust where things are placed until you get the noseweight as close to but not exceeding the towball limit of 75kg. I know this sounds complicated but makes sense when you actually come to do it.
mel

 

[Lonesome-Whizkid]

Ok, starting to understand, So payload is the difference between MIRO and MTPLM so lets say for example that the payload is 185kg, is that the allowable weight that can be introduced to the caravan, personal effects, leisure battery etc?

 

[CyberCynth]

Hi Lonesome, welcome to the forum! Good luck with the purchase of car and caravan. You will get loads of good advice from the members of the forum, lots of people here with years of experience, and all very happy to share their knowledge, as I have found to my benefit. Happy caravanning!

By the way, a good source of information is the Camping and Caravanning Club (C&CC) (Although some forum members would probably want to direct you to the 'other one', the Caravan Club.) The C&CC publishes some very useful factsheets, and also offers a 'Matching Service', so that you can check whether your choice of car and caravan is a safe and appropriate match. With both clubs, membership gives to access to hundreds of large, well-run sites and thousands of small, 5-'van sites, which may be a bit more basic, often offer a slightly cheaper and often more peaceful, quiet environment.

 

[ProfJohnL]

............and also offers a 'Matching Service', so that you can check whether your choice of car and caravan is a safe and appropriate match. ............

I'm sorry to be pedantic about this Cynthia but its so important. You make two points the first about Safety. absolutely none of these websites or services can confirm if your outfit is "safe". The best they can do is to flag up those which in the opinion of of that site are NOT SUITABLE. Safety is in the hands of the driver and about sensible loading, proper maintenance, experience, and Driver habits. simply keeping to a particular weight ratio does nothing to ensure safety.

And secondly, No matching web site or service can be trusted 100% to give appropriate advice about your chosen outfit because all of them have omission and errors in their data sets, and unless you and confirm your EXACT vehicle and caravan specifications in every respect, then the information these service simply cannot be trusted.I suggest their outputs only be considers as a rough guide and not taken as gospel

Balanced re-views?
The best you can do is to obtain the information about the specific vehicles you have from the vehicle data plates or the manufacturers specification in the V5c or handbook. and then view with a little scepticism all the various reports you can find. Do remember that in general the human beings rarely make the effort to applaud something that's good, but they look for every chance to shout from the roof tops when something goes wrong.

 

[Parksy]

If you're thinking of buying a used touring caravan you can read up on lots of information in the Caravan Buyers Guide.
Use the rectangular buttons on the left to navigate around the site to find out what to look out for and avoid the most common pitfalls that can cost buyers their hard earned money.
A note of caution with regard to Avondale caravans, the manufacturers ceased trading in September 2008 and some panels and parts could be hard to come by if you ever need a repair. As a result an Avondale caravan will be worth less money when it comes to selling or trading in so be careful what you price you pay if you go ahead with the purchase.

 

[xtrailman]

Don't assume the information in the V5c is accurate mine certainly isn't, along with other owners of Mazda CX-5. The mass in service is way out.

And the information isn't always on the V5 for older models.

 

[xtrailman]

Thanks for your answers guys, I don't yet have a van, but learning before purchasing one hense joining the PCv. I have been using www.towcar.info and trying to get a good match before going ahead and jumping in, I really like the Kia Sportage 2.0CRDi 4x4 2006 model, Does anyone know whether this is a reliable towcar, Am I making a good choice, Ive matched it to an Avondale Dart 630 which comes back at 81%, One more Question I have is, What is towball limit @ 75kg, Is this question relivant to my first question about payload? or is that relivant to the noseweight?

I would forget the Kia and look for a xtrail, Kuga if you can stretch to one, or Tiguan, usually they have a 100kg nose weight limit. Makes loading much easier.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

One more Question I have is, What is towball limit @ 75kg, Is this question relivant to my first question about payload? or is that relivant to the noseweight?

The towball limit is the max downward load you can put on the car's towball (generally around 75kg for a car and generally higher for 4x4s). This limit is set by the car manufacturer.

The nose weight is the downward load exerted by the caravan at the towhitch. The max limit is set by the van manufacturer, but it can be 'trimmed' according to how you load your van.

You must never exceed either of these 2 values.

 

[Lonesome-Whizkid]

Ok, So would it be best to look for a caravan with a larger payload limit, so I can fit more personal effects, food, clothing, leisure bat etc. I've seen caravans with 125kg payload and also ones at 250kg, Would this be a deciding factor for any caravan enthusiast? I've been looking on the web at lots of different caravans for sale but there's so many to choose from. Oh and one more thing, Is an awning included in the mass in running order figure and if not roughly to the nearest 10kg, how much do awnings weigh?

 

[Mel]

You will be balancing payload allowance against other caravan desirables such as layout and construction, but generally the more payload the better. The awning is part of the payload( if you carry it in the van) not the MIRO. The weight of the awning is variable; from a small lightweight porch awning with a single carbon pole to full size 300cm deep seasonal awning with steel poles. If you go on any website selling awnings, the weight is generally listed.
mel.

 

[Parksy]

The best approach to finding the right caravan for you would be to decide how many people will be using the caravan, the number of adults and the number and ages of the children which will help to define the layout.
The layout is the number of beds, known as berths, where the shower and washroom need to be and how big the shower and sink are, depending on the type of sites you will be using.
Look at the sort of kitchen area you will need, a full sized cooker with oven and grill or a hob and an outside barbeque?
Aim to put at least some payload into your car, an overloaded caravan with badly stowed equipment is highly likely to come to grief apart from the very real possibility of a stop check from the police and VOSA.
When you have worked out your basic requirements it will be much easier to decide what sort of caravan to look for and the amount of payload.
Remember that there may be driving licence restrictions which govern what you are allowed to tow, Click Here to see the requirements before deciding to buy any caravan.

 

[Lonesome-Whizkid]

Thanks for your time to comment, the advice is really appreciated everyone!

 

[Lonesome-Whizkid]

Ok, I'm currently working my way through "teach yourself caravanning - by Rob McCabe, In association with the caravan club which I bought, I'm going to quote a passage from page 58 regarding payload which has got me asking myself.

"From the payload figure, the caravan manufacturer has set aside an amount to accommodate what's known as "essential habitation equipment", e.g. mains lead, gas bottle and battery. The remaining amount is what's available to you for personal belongings, which itself is devided between personal effects (clothing, food, toys, bikes, awning, lager) and optional equipment. This last allowance is to take account of any extras you may specify, either at the time of ordering your caravan or subsequently from the dealer. This would include such items as an air-conditioning unit or a microwave oven, the weights for which will be listed in the caravan manufacturer's specification sheet.
Ultimately, though, you need only make sure that the caravan your towing is within its MTPLM".

So this has got me asking myself, Is the spare wheel, battery, gas bottle, and mains lead already taken into account and then the payload is set at whatever figure its set at? Hope I'm not confusing myself or anyone else? Or are they just talking about how they scientifically arrive at the MIRO, PAYLOAD and MTPLM figures which I thoroughly understand.??

 

[xtrailman]

Unfortunately every caravan has a different list of standard equipment, hence the comment re its the MTPLM figure that counts, that should not be exceeded.

For example I have a standard alko jack along with a TV.

 

[Lonesome-Whizkid]

See, this is what's confusing me, Do you mean that when you bought the caravan it came with alko jack and tv and was added into the MIRO? :silly: But I know what your saying that MTPLM is final and should never be exceeded.

 

[Sproket]

The only way to find out the true weight of the van when you buy one is to take it to a weighbridge, there are plenty about or even the self weigh ones that the hgvs use, when you have got the figure you can then weigh with the aid of a set of bathroom scales all of your other items that you intend to take with you....

Add the two figures together & hopefully subtract it from the caravans MTPLM and you will have a good ball park figure of what the van weighs.

Or take it back to the weighbridge to re-weigh the van when fully loaded, if you are over the MTPLM you will have to remove some of your items to reduce the weight of the van..

You can find a list of weighbridges here

 

[ProfJohnL]

See, this is what's confusing me, Do you mean that when you bought the caravan it came with alko jack and tv and was added into the MIRO? :silly: But I know what your saying that MTPLM is final and should never be exceeded.

Hello again Whiz,

The definition of Mass In Running Order (MIRO) was changed a couple of years ago. and frankly its a bit of nightmare, as it seem that each manufacturer has their own list of kit that they account for in the MIRO figure. The issue is what's defined as Essential Habitation Equipment (EHE), and then how much each manufacture allows for it.

Now to rephrase your question "if its listed as EHE is it supplied by the caravan manufacturer" Simple answer here is NO.

The manufacture builds the caravan and installed all the fixed equipment, the have good idea of how much the caravan weighs at the factory, and they also add to that the estimated weight of all the EHE they have on their list for that caravan, so combining these two figures gives them the MIRO. The difference between the Miro and the MTPLM is what left for you to fill with personal items.

you may find this web page useful;

http://www.tourerinfo.co.uk/payloads/

 

[Lonesome-Whizkid]

Thanks, Useful website! Added to favourites.

 

[xtrailman]

The new way the MIRO is worked is very confusing to me and I've been towing since the MK1 Cavalier was launched.

One thing I do is set up an excel spread sheet and list all my weighed possessions, As I don't use all the MIRO allowance, that can then be added to the possessions list.

This is my allowance.

"Thank you for your email
I can confirm that there is a 61kg allowance included on the Unicorn models for the following

20.7kg for the Fresh Water System (90% full)
2kg Toilet flush system
30kg Gas Allowance
7.6kg Water Heating System (90% full)
1kg Essential Fluids

I trust this is of assistance"

As I carry no fresh water, and only one calor gas lite this then gives me some more allowance for stuff I do take, 33kg for a motor mover for example.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Using a spread sheet is a great idea, its far better than nothing at all, but you can only use it as a guide. Whenever you try measuring the weights of individual parts that make up the whole, the measurement errors of lots of smaller items will exceed the measurement error of weighing everything together.

If your well under the specified capacity of the caravan there's not much to worry about but as you approach the MTPLM, the error could be the difference between being over weight of not.