:silly: Do you require an inverter with your leisure battery if your planning to camp off grid? I know you can get 12v travel TV's and such but if I wanted to use the laptop and mobile internet? And if you do require one what wattage rating would be recommended? :woohoo:
Power, When Off Grid.
- Thread starter Lonesome-Whizkid
- Start date
an inverter would be required for any 240v equipment but the size & type of inverter required is dependant on the wattage of the equipment you want to run, for a computer only you would need pure sine wave inverter of a minimum 0f 75watts perhaps this website will give you the info you need
http://www.sunshinesolar.co.uk/khxc/gbu0-catshow/PowerInverters.html
how ever there are other types of chargers that allow computers to be run of off 12v dc such as off a car cigar lighter .
http://www.amazon.co.uk/UNIVERSAL-ADAPTER-CHARGER-Compatible-Sattelite/dp/B002KD5F32/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1398643006&sr=8-1&keywords=computer car charger
http://www.sunshinesolar.co.uk/khxc/gbu0-catshow/PowerInverters.html
how ever there are other types of chargers that allow computers to be run of off 12v dc such as off a car cigar lighter .
http://www.amazon.co.uk/UNIVERSAL-ADAPTER-CHARGER-Compatible-Sattelite/dp/B002KD5F32/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1398643006&sr=8-1&keywords=computer car charger
Lonesome-Whizkid said:
Hello Whiz.
If you are contemplating caravanning 'off grid' then you simply cannot use the caravan in the same way that you would if you had an 230V supply. To put it into perspective, if you have a 230V hookup has the potential to supply 230V x 16A = 88kWh over 24 hours, But the fully charged 120AH battery is only capable of supplying a maximum of 120A x12V = 1.44kWh of energy then its gone. A massive reduction in the available power!
Consequently you have to be more selective about what you try to do when you don't have 230V hook up. Trying to use an inverter doesn't help, because the power it needs comes from the battery.
Most Mobile devices by virtue of their mobility have internal batteries, which will work for a few hours, but then the need to be recharged. Most laptops will consume between 30 to 60W and then you have to add the power needed by the internet device so that will be a significant draw on the caravan battery Not an ideal situation without mains to recharge the battery.
If you intend to go off grid, then perhaps you need to reconsider what you want to need to do when on holiday.
I would suggest that most laptop manufacturers produce PSU's designed for use in cars, and Ill guess the mobile internet devices are also similarly available for 12V operation. Consider rather than recharging these devices in the caravan, do it in the car when you are out and about.
Hello Whizz,if you want to be independent of mains power, have you considered a decent sized solar panel. Coupled with a larger deep cycle leisure battery and a good controller,you will find that it will cope with most of the caravan ancillary items, along with the 12 volt fittings in the van
Thanks ProfJohn, That was very helpful info, Thanks Rodone. I'll do some research on that see what i can learn. Thanks TD42 
Is a PSU a 12V power supply for the laptop? I was under the impression that i needed to use a pure sine wave inverter for the laptop or id ruin it, But this PSU thing might have a current regulator in it also so i had a look at them on ebay and see what you mean. Is 200ah the largest leisure battery you can get?, Provided it fits into the battery locker? What is the controller for when talking about solar panels and deep cycle leisure batteries? Havent got a clue... Just thinking that If i went fishing quite a lot whilst on holiday and didn't have a ehu what id do without a power hook up and would that determine the amount of time i spent on a lake.
Is a PSU a 12V power supply for the laptop? I was under the impression that i needed to use a pure sine wave inverter for the laptop or id ruin it, But this PSU thing might have a current regulator in it also so i had a look at them on ebay and see what you mean. Is 200ah the largest leisure battery you can get?, Provided it fits into the battery locker? What is the controller for when talking about solar panels and deep cycle leisure batteries? Havent got a clue... Just thinking that If i went fishing quite a lot whilst on holiday and didn't have a ehu what id do without a power hook up and would that determine the amount of time i spent on a lake.
A lot of questions rolled into one here, lets try breaking them down a bit.
PSU Stands for Power Supply Unit. Its a general term and usually describes a device for converting one power source to another to specifically suited for a particular appliance or job.
Most laptops are supplied with a mains plug in PSU. This takes the 230Vac and converts it to about 19Vdc with enough current capacity to run the Laptop and charge its internal battery. Many laptop manufacturers can also supply a PSU that will take 12Vdc and by the magic of electronics step it up to suit their product. (Maplin Electronics stock some generic models)
Another way to power a laptop from 12Vdc is to use an inverter. This takes 12Vdc and converts it to 230Vac, and you simply plug your standard Laptop PSU into the inverter. BUT cheap inverters do not produce a sine wave output it tends to be a stepped square wave sometimes called a 'pseudo' or 'modified' sine wave. Yes its AC but its got lots of hard edges to the wave form, and these can upset some appliances.
The gold standard output is a pure sine wave, and this is the cleanest power, BUT it comes at reduced efficiency and a considerable price hike.
In terms of maximising your off grid survival, obtaining a dedicated 12Vdc to dc PSU for your laptop will be the best adn recharging it in the car.
Your reference to 'current regulator' will be related to Solar Panels. 12Vdc batteries can be over charged, and as the output from a solar cell is determined by the amount of light falling on it, its output will vary throughout the day. You fit a panel that will provide a reasonable charge at both ends of the day, but during the middle of the day it may be capable of providing more current than the battery can safely handle so the current regulator takes care of it.
You will need to seek information from battery suppliers about the largest leisure battery you can get and you will also need to check the dimensions of the battery locker on your caravan. In general 110Ah is the most usual large capacity battery thats suitable.
There are many different types of batteries. Car Batteries and Caravan Batteries may look similar, but they are made in different ways. A Car battery is expected to produce a lot of current to run the starter motor, but once its started, the engine recharges the battery very quickly so its not left discharged, By comparison a caravan battery is expected to give smaller amounts of current but over much longer periods and it may not be recharged for some time. Caravan batteries tend to have 'deep cycles' of discharge and recharge. If you are working of grid, then you need a caravan or leisure battery. If you were always using a mains hook up then a smaller car type battery would probably do quite well.
How long your battery will last may have something to do with how long you're on the lake. I'd suggest the longer you are on the lake the less battery you will use so you can stay longer on the lake. In fact if you spent all the time on the lake the battery won't get used at all so it won't limit you.
PSU Stands for Power Supply Unit. Its a general term and usually describes a device for converting one power source to another to specifically suited for a particular appliance or job.
Most laptops are supplied with a mains plug in PSU. This takes the 230Vac and converts it to about 19Vdc with enough current capacity to run the Laptop and charge its internal battery. Many laptop manufacturers can also supply a PSU that will take 12Vdc and by the magic of electronics step it up to suit their product. (Maplin Electronics stock some generic models)
Another way to power a laptop from 12Vdc is to use an inverter. This takes 12Vdc and converts it to 230Vac, and you simply plug your standard Laptop PSU into the inverter. BUT cheap inverters do not produce a sine wave output it tends to be a stepped square wave sometimes called a 'pseudo' or 'modified' sine wave. Yes its AC but its got lots of hard edges to the wave form, and these can upset some appliances.
The gold standard output is a pure sine wave, and this is the cleanest power, BUT it comes at reduced efficiency and a considerable price hike.
In terms of maximising your off grid survival, obtaining a dedicated 12Vdc to dc PSU for your laptop will be the best adn recharging it in the car.
Your reference to 'current regulator' will be related to Solar Panels. 12Vdc batteries can be over charged, and as the output from a solar cell is determined by the amount of light falling on it, its output will vary throughout the day. You fit a panel that will provide a reasonable charge at both ends of the day, but during the middle of the day it may be capable of providing more current than the battery can safely handle so the current regulator takes care of it.
You will need to seek information from battery suppliers about the largest leisure battery you can get and you will also need to check the dimensions of the battery locker on your caravan. In general 110Ah is the most usual large capacity battery thats suitable.
There are many different types of batteries. Car Batteries and Caravan Batteries may look similar, but they are made in different ways. A Car battery is expected to produce a lot of current to run the starter motor, but once its started, the engine recharges the battery very quickly so its not left discharged, By comparison a caravan battery is expected to give smaller amounts of current but over much longer periods and it may not be recharged for some time. Caravan batteries tend to have 'deep cycles' of discharge and recharge. If you are working of grid, then you need a caravan or leisure battery. If you were always using a mains hook up then a smaller car type battery would probably do quite well.
How long your battery will last may have something to do with how long you're on the lake. I'd suggest the longer you are on the lake the less battery you will use so you can stay longer on the lake. In fact if you spent all the time on the lake the battery won't get used at all so it won't limit you.
Hello again Whizz, As Prof says - a lot of questions!! You will probably find that the largest practical size battery (both dimensions and power output ) will be 120ah. After that you get into marine type batteries and bigger money. The Controller that I mentioned is sometimes called the Regulator, and simply controls the amount of current that goes from the panels, into the battery a little along the lines of a smart charger. It will also have device to ensure that the battery cannot feed the panel in the night. I use a controller from Sunworks and find it first rate. It is a small very neat looking unit that is fixed by my van door and it constantly shows, in LCD, exactly what is in the battery, and the power, in AH that the panel is putting in. Just out of interest we stay for up to three months in the summer, using all the usual caravan stuff and do not have any hookup. We sometimes use an inverter, but seldom as find that apart from our old camcorder, most things can go directly onto 12v to charge. . Sadly, the only item that I cannot charge through the van is my mobility buggy, except when on EHU, but site owners will normally help out.
Hello again Whizz, As Prof says - a lot of questions!! You will probably find that the largest practical size battery (both dimensions and power output ) will be 120ah. After that you get into marine type batteries and bigger money. The Controller that I mentioned is sometimes called the Regulator, and simply controls the amount of current that goes from the panels, into the battery a little along the lines of a smart charger. It will also have device to ensure that the battery cannot feed the panel in the night. I use a controller from Sunworks and find it first rate. It is a small very neat looking unit that is fixed by my van door and it constantly shows, in LCD, exactly what is in the battery, and the power, in AH that the panel is putting in. Just out of interest we stay for up to three months in the summer, using all the usual caravan stuff and do not have any hookup. We sometimes use an inverter, but seldom as find that apart from our old camcorder, most things can go directly onto 12v to charge. . Sadly, the only item that I cannot charge through the van is my mobility buggy, except when on EHU, but site owners will normally help out.
Hi all very new to all this but I hope you don`t mind me joining in the discussion.
I am just considering the rewiring of my van its an old one 1983 with 12v and 240v circuits but very basic .
Has anyone managed to put a group of usb charging outlets in for phones and tablets etc Ican find several on ebay that appear to run off 12v mains adaptors so could you not just remove the transformer and wire them in? we use usb sockets in the car for charging these things so why not in the van?
If anyone has done this I would love to hear about it.
this is like the one I am thinking of but a bit big !
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New10-Port-High-Speed-USB-2-0-HUB-Splitter-w-External-Power-Adapter-ORICO-P10-U2-/121285549705?pt=UK_Computing_USB_Cables&hash=item1c3d2e9e89
I am just considering the rewiring of my van its an old one 1983 with 12v and 240v circuits but very basic .
Has anyone managed to put a group of usb charging outlets in for phones and tablets etc Ican find several on ebay that appear to run off 12v mains adaptors so could you not just remove the transformer and wire them in? we use usb sockets in the car for charging these things so why not in the van?
If anyone has done this I would love to hear about it.
this is like the one I am thinking of but a bit big !
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New10-Port-High-Speed-USB-2-0-HUB-Splitter-w-External-Power-Adapter-ORICO-P10-U2-/121285549705?pt=UK_Computing_USB_Cables&hash=item1c3d2e9e89
hi manaboutthehouse,
no one will mind you joining in any discussion on the notice boards that is what they are there for, feel free to make a contribution to any thread you wish.
regarding your query I can see where you are going but would ask why go to such lengths if you intend to rewire the whole van surely the best way would be to place an extra socket (240v 3pin) somewhere convienient like the side of one of the front bunks and face it of with one of these. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/13a-switched-2-gang-wall-sockets-with-2-usb-outlets-charge-i-pad-apple-ect-/351042825619?pt=UK_DIY_Material_Electrical_Fittings_MJ&hash=item51bbc86d93
that is what I did and it works very well, of course one has to use EHU unless one wires in a inverter at the power source ( I also did that on the motorhome) but it is a very expensive and complicated business to get right in order to work correctly if one wants to to off grid (could also require a solar panel) .
no one will mind you joining in any discussion on the notice boards that is what they are there for, feel free to make a contribution to any thread you wish.
regarding your query I can see where you are going but would ask why go to such lengths if you intend to rewire the whole van surely the best way would be to place an extra socket (240v 3pin) somewhere convienient like the side of one of the front bunks and face it of with one of these. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/13a-switched-2-gang-wall-sockets-with-2-usb-outlets-charge-i-pad-apple-ect-/351042825619?pt=UK_DIY_Material_Electrical_Fittings_MJ&hash=item51bbc86d93
that is what I did and it works very well, of course one has to use EHU unless one wires in a inverter at the power source ( I also did that on the motorhome) but it is a very expensive and complicated business to get right in order to work correctly if one wants to to off grid (could also require a solar panel) .
Well I did think of using one of those as we have them by our bedside at home and are very good , but I was thinking that they would only work when on EHU whereas if I could find a say 6 way usb hub fed by a 12v adaptor I could remove the adaptor and wire it to 12v system , usb stuff is fairly low current demand so I thought it might be a good addition for phones kindle tablet the wife`s ecig batteries etc?
Or have I not thought this through?
I am in the thought and planning phase of a rewire and am thinking about what to build in or change ike for example converting all lighting to led to lower current demand and prolong battery life when not on EHU.as we certainly have a couple of places we will go where we will want to be off grid for a week or so like Hollands wood campsite in the New Forest., so any advice and shared experience is most welcome
Or have I not thought this through?
I am in the thought and planning phase of a rewire and am thinking about what to build in or change ike for example converting all lighting to led to lower current demand and prolong battery life when not on EHU.as we certainly have a couple of places we will go where we will want to be off grid for a week or so like Hollands wood campsite in the New Forest., so any advice and shared experience is most welcome
How do you get the photographs to show on the thread, I see no upload link?
Is it just a matter of simply copy and paste?
So the regulator for the solar panel is there to ensure that the solar panel doesnt deliver a charge to the leisure battery that will ruin it? And also at the same time has a LCD to tell you what charge is in your leisure battery? ??
Is it just a matter of simply copy and paste?
So the regulator for the solar panel is there to ensure that the solar panel doesnt deliver a charge to the leisure battery that will ruin it? And also at the same time has a LCD to tell you what charge is in your leisure battery?
??Lonesome-Whizkid said:How do you get the photographs to show on the thread, I see no upload link?
Is it just a matter of simply copy and paste?
Have a read of this
hi manaboutthehouse,what I've done and found cheaper/easier was to fit 3 accessory sockets and charge my tablet/phone etc with normal in car chargers or an in car charger that accepts a USB lead.I paid less than £4 for 3 sockets and a couple of quid for the in car charger that will take 2 USB leads.just remember to install an in line fuse.
Hello Whizz, yes the regullar / controller will constantly put in the highest amount that your battery needs/ can safely accept and when the battery is full, it will go onto a trickle charge. The controller display will deepend on the make, but on the Sunworks model it clearly shows an accurate reading of exactly what is in the battery and then immediately below that it will digitally display the amount of power that the panel is producing. It also shows a code to tell you at which stage the charge is ie F - full (trickle charge) if you Google Sunworks you will find them.
Thanks Rodone, I'll google that. Is it a good idea to also invest in a generator? Last time i used a generator it was ace, used it to power up a 500watt security floodlight when fishing and it gave amazing light all night. wired the light up with a electrical surge plug. Costly, Was £18 a plug if i can remember. I know generators can cause electrical spikes unlike the pure sine wave inverter, so what can generators be good for?
Is it a good idea to also invest in a generator? Last time i used a generator it was ace, used it to power up a 500watt security floodlight when fishing and it gave amazing light all night. wired the light up with a electrical surge plug. Costly, Was £18 a plug if i can remember. I know generators can cause electrical spikes unlike the pure sine wave inverter, so what can generators be good for?
What do we call you , Man, About or House???
I suspect you are describing a cigarette lighter type adaptor. These take the 12V from the cars supply and regulate it down to 5V for the USB equipment. So it is possible to use the 6way hub, but you would still need to use the 12V adaptor. The simplest way would be to get a cigarette lighter type socket (Most good motoring stores should have them) and fit that in a convenient place in the caravan, and the simply use the hub in its original form.
I would be wary though. Whilst all the devices you mention may only be low current, they tend to be used over extended periods, so the power used starts to add up. As I posted in an earlier popst, if your off grid, you have to far more circumspect about what to use. By rertaing the hub in its original form yoiu have the option to transfer it to the car for charging items when your out and about.
ON your other thoughts, yes changing all lighting to LED will certainly use less battery power, and of course don't forget that many of the standard appliances will use gas, so you can still have hot water, heating, and fridge working. Solar panels can help to reduce your dependence on mains and extend the off grid usefulness of a battery. Having a second battery that is charged in the car can allow you to swap them over, or of course you may consider a small generator, but make sure you go for onw with an inverter output to protect your caravan electronics.
For a really expensive but ECO solution you can get Fuel Cells.
I suspect you are describing a cigarette lighter type adaptor. These take the 12V from the cars supply and regulate it down to 5V for the USB equipment. So it is possible to use the 6way hub, but you would still need to use the 12V adaptor. The simplest way would be to get a cigarette lighter type socket (Most good motoring stores should have them) and fit that in a convenient place in the caravan, and the simply use the hub in its original form.
I would be wary though. Whilst all the devices you mention may only be low current, they tend to be used over extended periods, so the power used starts to add up. As I posted in an earlier popst, if your off grid, you have to far more circumspect about what to use. By rertaing the hub in its original form yoiu have the option to transfer it to the car for charging items when your out and about.
ON your other thoughts, yes changing all lighting to LED will certainly use less battery power, and of course don't forget that many of the standard appliances will use gas, so you can still have hot water, heating, and fridge working. Solar panels can help to reduce your dependence on mains and extend the off grid usefulness of a battery. Having a second battery that is charged in the car can allow you to swap them over, or of course you may consider a small generator, but make sure you go for onw with an inverter output to protect your caravan electronics.
For a really expensive but ECO solution you can get Fuel Cells.
Thanks to all who have given a message contribution. It's greatly appreciated. I'm learning lots here. Just on the subject of portable generators,.. You can actually buy them with Inverter outputs? Does that give out a pure sine wave?
Hello Whizz, be very cautious about the generator idea as many small sites do not encourage them- mainly due to noise and smelll of exhaust.. Even the quietest ones can still be heard, to a greater or lesser extent. They are also relatively heavy, and space consuming to transport.- along with fuel.
Prof John you can call me whatever you like!
Having watched some of the Utube TV channel for the caravan channel Im thinking of taking the battery out of the gas cupboard on the draw bar ( mine is separate) as it would appear to be safer not too mix the gas and electrics and also having watched the video on caravan loading it would be more stable to move the battery nearer the axle?
I also have access to relatively cheap batteries so am considering running twin batteries of 110AH each connected in parallel . what I don`t know is if I can place the batteries each side of the van to balance the weight . do they need to go side by side to keep the cable run shorter, what size cable do I need for the connection? I have battery cable for car use on a roll if needed?
When relocating the batteries I will rewire the plug for the van from a single 7 pin to a 13 pin which will match my tow vehicle, what are the problems with having a longer run of this cable if I move the batteries?
regards
steve
Having watched some of the Utube TV channel for the caravan channel Im thinking of taking the battery out of the gas cupboard on the draw bar ( mine is separate) as it would appear to be safer not too mix the gas and electrics and also having watched the video on caravan loading it would be more stable to move the battery nearer the axle?
I also have access to relatively cheap batteries so am considering running twin batteries of 110AH each connected in parallel . what I don`t know is if I can place the batteries each side of the van to balance the weight . do they need to go side by side to keep the cable run shorter, what size cable do I need for the connection? I have battery cable for car use on a roll if needed?
When relocating the batteries I will rewire the plug for the van from a single 7 pin to a 13 pin which will match my tow vehicle, what are the problems with having a longer run of this cable if I move the batteries?
regards
steve
Hi Man,
Its beginning to feel like the swinging sixties again!
Its certainly not current best practice to mix gas storage and electrics, so moving the battery is quite a sensible suggestion.
Using two batteries in parallel can and will work, but there a few points to bear in mind.
Firstly I have to recommend you use two batteries of exactly same specification and install and replace them at the same time. The reason is if your two batteries at different states of charge, connected in parallel you will get some very high currents running between the batteries as the charges try to equalise. For this reason you need to have substantial cables to link the two batteries (Like jump start or booster cables with a large Cross Sectional Area) If you are using such large CSA cables between the batteries the extra length is unlikely to have any detrimental effect on the charging or usage of the batteries.
I think it should be acceptable to fit the batteries to each side of the caravan to balance the weight, provided you do use substantial cables between the two. The nearer the axle the better. Or even one in front and one behind to balance their weights.
When charging, batteries they give of fumes, which include hydrogen. That is why battery compartments should be sealed from the living areas and have external ventilation.
Its beginning to feel like the swinging sixties again!
Its certainly not current best practice to mix gas storage and electrics, so moving the battery is quite a sensible suggestion.
Using two batteries in parallel can and will work, but there a few points to bear in mind.
Firstly I have to recommend you use two batteries of exactly same specification and install and replace them at the same time. The reason is if your two batteries at different states of charge, connected in parallel you will get some very high currents running between the batteries as the charges try to equalise. For this reason you need to have substantial cables to link the two batteries (Like jump start or booster cables with a large Cross Sectional Area) If you are using such large CSA cables between the batteries the extra length is unlikely to have any detrimental effect on the charging or usage of the batteries.
I think it should be acceptable to fit the batteries to each side of the caravan to balance the weight, provided you do use substantial cables between the two. The nearer the axle the better. Or even one in front and one behind to balance their weights.
When charging, batteries they give of fumes, which include hydrogen. That is why battery compartments should be sealed from the living areas and have external ventilation.
will connecting 2, 12 volt leisure batteries give you 24 volts output? and when would that be necessary in the caravanning world? or is it not necessary?
gordon bennett!!! no mate only if the batteries are connected end to end will you get 24v. if both batteries are connected + to + and - to - you only get 12v but twice the power.
I think it should be acceptable to fit the batteries to each side of the caravan to balance the weight, provided you do use substantial cables between the two. The nearer the axle the better. Or even one in front and one behind to balance their weights.
When charging, batteries they give of fumes, which include hydrogen. That is why battery compartments should be sealed from the living areas and have external ventilation.[/quote]
Hmm that`s good as I have a whole reel of very heavy battery cable (like starter cabling) from my days of building race cars.
On the battery ventilation issue that could be an issue as its an old van I don`t have external battery compartments but was planning to use the floor maybe I could recess 2 compartments into the floor I was thinking with prefab metal straps under the battery as a cradle and a ply fitted top? sealing the passenger compartment sort of half up and down ?
Are leisure batteries vented with a tube outlet normally that you can connect tubing to to exhaust charging gases? Or could I use a small fan to extract the gases if I went with on the floor mount so this would keep the temperature of the batteries up and enhance performance?
I was thinking twin 110/120 AH and yes I understand they need to be a matched pair but that would be ok as I`m starting from scratch and have a good battery supplier.
When charging, batteries they give of fumes, which include hydrogen. That is why battery compartments should be sealed from the living areas and have external ventilation.[/quote]
Hmm that`s good as I have a whole reel of very heavy battery cable (like starter cabling) from my days of building race cars.
On the battery ventilation issue that could be an issue as its an old van I don`t have external battery compartments but was planning to use the floor maybe I could recess 2 compartments into the floor I was thinking with prefab metal straps under the battery as a cradle and a ply fitted top? sealing the passenger compartment sort of half up and down ?
Are leisure batteries vented with a tube outlet normally that you can connect tubing to to exhaust charging gases? Or could I use a small fan to extract the gases if I went with on the floor mount so this would keep the temperature of the batteries up and enhance performance?
I was thinking twin 110/120 AH and yes I understand they need to be a matched pair but that would be ok as I`m starting from scratch and have a good battery supplier.
Facebook
Twitter