Privacy/dark windows

[Debbie_374305615]

Would like some feedback please, on how people have 'lived' with the new darkened windows that have been out for a couple of seasons now - were they welcomed, been too dark, would prefer original clear?

Regards

Deb

 

[spj]

Hi Debbie,

We bought a Fleetwood Heritage last year which has darker than normal windows but they are not black like the Explorer Groups, the Fleetwood has a light interior and we like the windows as they are. After looking at the Explorer 2008 caravans we found them very dull inside, the Buccaneer which is the most expensive model has dark windows and a gloomy interior, the Elddis is similar but the Compass has lighter wood which is a little better although still quite dull inside. We think the Fleetwood windows are a good compromise between privacey and allowing in light.

The Explorer Group vans look fantastic outside and have plenty of roof lights which the Fleetwood lacks but inside the Fleetwood seems perfectly light enough, with a Buccaneer or Elddis I would be putting the lights on when the sun is not out.

spj.

 

[Geist]

I have to admit that the new vans with the black windows certainly do look great.

To me, however, it's just another novelty introduced by the manufacturers to divert attention away from their fundamentally shoddy build quality.

Let's face it, those lovely windows are the best part of the van. What's the point of them when the shell will be leaking in two years time (or very possibly less)

This con-trick has been going on for decades - every year, something new, something snazzier, something designed to make people go "Ooooh!"...... but, always, the same ineffective seals, cheap construction, and short life expectancy.

Dark windows are nice - well sealed caravans would be a lot better.

 

[Trevor_374318615]

I have to admit that the new vans with the black windows certainly do look great.

To me, however, it's just another novelty introduced by the manufacturers to divert attention away from their fundamentally shoddy build quality.

Let's face it, those lovely windows are the best part of the van. What's the point of them when the shell will be leaking in two years time (or very possibly less)

This con-trick has been going on for decades - every year, something new, something snazzier, something designed to make people go "Ooooh!"...... but, always, the same ineffective seals, cheap construction, and short life expectancy.

Dark windows are nice - well sealed caravans would be a lot better.

Dear Geist,

Although very new to this forum I am learning quite a lot about current UK and Foreign built caravans by "tuning in". I do appreciate the differing points of view and do not wish to cause offence here, but, I would like to add some observations if I may?

It would be of real assistance to the likes of me if you Mr/Mrs/Ms Geist (?) would be kind enough to substantiate some of your accusations of "shoddy build quality" please. I am a "born again caravaner" who is looking to purchase a new van soon. You advised me to look at vans which displayed the words: - "'Made In Germany". We have in fact looked at some examples which are very heavy, plain looking inside and with a distinctly "orange" coloured wood finish. Not altogether inviting one to rush out and part with ones "hard earned".

To some people the cars made by Mercedes represent quality. However, to those thousands of owners who over the years have been honest enough to complete a JD Power Customer Satisfaction Survey, they simply do not agree! My request is quite basic - please, please be kind enough to back up your proclamations with some meaningful facts.

Thank you for your past suggestion and I of one would welcome your corroborated advice in the future.

Trevor.

 

[Ogre]

Surely, the whole point of windows is so that you can see through them? I fail to see any reason for this latest fashion fad, and they certainly don't impress us. I suppose some misguided people might think that they 'look cool' or something....the mind boggles!

I don't think many genuine caravanners will be remotely interested in this rather silly gimmick.

A pair of sunglasses is much more affordable.

 

[Lee.C]

We have an 07 Super Sirocco and must say we like the privacy glass . From inside you can still see out and it does not feel dark inside. Whilst on hols in France this year it did help to keep the van cool plus it can help to stop the interior fading. From our point of view we love them. Simple answer is if you dont like them then dont buy a van with them. We are GENUINE caravanners so stop moaning about other peoples choices. whilst there are vans I would not choose I would not criticise other peoples choices and I dont think it really is a gimmick. Whenever the caravan industry tries to do something different there are people who are always critical and when they dont do anything they are still critical. Bet you dont like the silver sides on the new Swift either.Well the thing is nlyor do I. Cheers dont take it too seriously

 

[Geist]

Dear Geist,

Although very new to this forum I am learning quite a lot about current UK and Foreign built caravans by "tuning in". I do appreciate the differing points of view and do not wish to cause offence here, but, I would like to add some observations if I may?

It would be of real assistance to the likes of me if you Mr/Mrs/Ms Geist (?) would be kind enough to substantiate some of your accusations of "shoddy build quality" please. I am a "born again caravaner" who is looking to purchase a new van soon. You advised me to look at vans which displayed the words: - "'Made In Germany". We have in fact looked at some examples which are very heavy, plain looking inside and with a distinctly "orange" coloured wood finish. Not altogether inviting one to rush out and part with ones "hard earned".

To some people the cars made by Mercedes represent quality. However, to those thousands of owners who over the years have been honest enough to complete a JD Power Customer Satisfaction Survey, they simply do not agree! My request is quite basic - please, please be kind enough to back up your proclamations with some meaningful facts.

Thank you for your past suggestion and I of one would welcome your corroborated advice in the future.

Trevor.

How on earth does one 'corroborate' these things? - perhaps the best thing would be to point to the Caravan club satisfaction surveys, all of which in recent years have placed German caravans at the top of the lists.

For myself, I have to add my own experience of UK caravans dating from the early 80's.. I remember, for example when 'bonded construction' was introduced and the general excitement it stirred up. At last, we were told, here was a build method that would give light weight and robust construction.

Prior to 'bonded' ' (which is the now universal pre-pressed 'sandwich' of aluminium-foam-plywood) all caravans (even the cheapest ones) comprised an inner timber frame, to which was attached the outer aluminium skin and the inner wall board, the insulation comprised fibreglass wadding (and, later, polystyrene sheets) which was stuffed into the spaces of the wooden framework before the inner board was fixed into place.

The inner board, itself, was covered with a paper-type finish, which stained almost immediately if water ingress occurred.

Thus, when the van leaked (and sooner, or later, they did) the signs of damp were immediately apparent. Then, it was a fairly simple matter to rectify the problem by sealing the leak (obviously) and then removing the wall board, checking if any rot had occurred in the inner framework (and repairing as necessary) then replacing the board and, bingo, the van was as good as new.

Then along came 'bonded' Bonded vans are a very different matter, and are extremely difficult to repair - they have no inner wooden framework, their structural integrity relies on the glue that bonds the core to the inner and outer skins. When water penetrates the inner board will rot - and, because those boards are now vinyl faced, unlike the old 'paper' faced type) you don't even know that it's rotting, until its too late.

I have owned reasonably new caravans where the inner board has rotted completely, leaving holes which were covered only the skin of vinyl decoration. This, by the way, is not the exception - it's a fairly regular occurrence.

From the outside the vans look fine - but inside the walls they are wet and damp and quietly rotting away.

So, what's the answer? The only answer is to keep that water out in the first place! - which is the job of the seals and the mastic.

Enter the Germans...............German vans use a better type of sealing mastic than their UK counterparts - and, what's more, they use a lot more of it! It adheres better, and stays flexible for much longer - which is important because dry mastic crumbles out of the joints as the caravan flexes during travel.

German vans are much more rigid, they don't flex as much when being towed, they incorporate bonded roofs (almost always strong enough to walk on), stronger floors - usually supported by a centre plate that rests on the axle, they use hydraulic dampers to reduce road shocks on the bodywork, have longer draw bars to add towing stability, and are generally heavier and more substantial.

They also (and this is important) use a different profile of aluminium exterior rail to every UK van. German (and other Continental vans, such as Adria) use an 'L' shaped profile, and they place the widest part of that profile across the mastic-filled gap that exists between the wall and roof of the caravan. Nothing particularly innovative about that - it's simple common sense, it's what you'd expect.

But UK vans don't do it, have never done it, and will probably never do it. Why? - I've no idea - you'd best ask the UK manufacturers

Instead of the logical use of an aluminium strip that covers unavoidable gaps, the UK vans leave that gap completely open - filled only with an inferior mastic that will crumble and break, allowing the rain to seep into the bonded walls.

Don't believe me? - take a look at the front of any UK van (best seen from the front, on the roof radius) See the gap? - see the mingy bit of sealing compound in there?......it's like that right along the length of the van - and it's what you're paying

 

[Geist]

Dear Geist,

Although very new to this forum I am learning quite a lot about current UK and Foreign built caravans by "tuning in". I do appreciate the differing points of view and do not wish to cause offence here, but, I would like to add some observations if I may?

It would be of real assistance to the likes of me if you Mr/Mrs/Ms Geist (?) would be kind enough to substantiate some of your accusations of "shoddy build quality" please. I am a "born again caravaner" who is looking to purchase a new van soon. You advised me to look at vans which displayed the words: - "'Made In Germany". We have in fact looked at some examples which are very heavy, plain looking inside and with a distinctly "orange" coloured wood finish. Not altogether inviting one to rush out and part with ones "hard earned".

To some people the cars made by Mercedes represent quality. However, to those thousands of owners who over the years have been honest enough to complete a JD Power Customer Satisfaction Survey, they simply do not agree! My request is quite basic - please, please be kind enough to back up your proclamations with some meaningful facts.

Thank you for your past suggestion and I of one would welcome your corroborated advice in the future.

Trevor.

How on earth does one 'corroborate' these things? - perhaps the best thing would be to point to the Caravan club satisfaction surveys, all of which in recent years have placed German caravans at the top of the lists.

For myself, I have to add my own experience of UK caravans dating from the early 80's.. I remember, for example when 'bonded construction' was introduced and the general excitement it stirred up. At last, we were told, here was a build method that would give light weight and robust construction.

Prior to 'bonded' ' (which is the now universal pre-pressed 'sandwich' of aluminium-foam-plywood) all caravans (even the cheapest ones) comprised an inner timber frame, to which was attached the outer aluminium skin and the inner wall board, the insulation comprised fibreglass wadding (and, later, polystyrene sheets) which was stuffed into the spaces of the wooden framework before the inner board was fixed into place.

The inner board, itself, was covered with a paper-type finish, which stained almost immediately if water ingress occurred.

Thus, when the van leaked (and sooner, or later, they did) the signs of damp were immediately apparent. Then, it was a fairly simple matter to rectify the problem by sealing the leak (obviously) and then removing the wall board, checking if any rot had occurred in the inner framework (and repairing as necessary) then replacing the board and, bingo, the van was as good as new.

Then along came 'bonded' Bonded vans are a very different matter, and are extremely difficult to repair - they have no inner wooden framework, their structural integrity relies on the glue that bonds the core to the inner and outer skins. When water penetrates the inner board will rot - and, because those boards are now vinyl faced, unlike the old 'paper' faced type) you don't even know that it's rotting, until its too late.

I have owned reasonably new caravans where the inner board has rotted completely, leaving holes which were covered only the skin of vinyl decoration. This, by the way, is not the exception - it's a fairly regular occurrence.

From the outside the vans look fine - but inside the walls they are wet and damp and quietly rotting away.

So, what's the answer? The only answer is to keep that water out in the first place! - which is the job of the seals and the mastic.

Enter the Germans...............German vans use a better type of sealing mastic than their UK counterparts - and, what's more, they use a lot more of it! It adheres better, and stays flexible for much longer - which is important because dry mastic crumbles out of the joints as the caravan flexes during travel.

German vans are much more rigid, they don't flex as much when being towed, they incorporate bonded roofs (almost always strong enough to walk on), stronger floors - usually supported by a centre plate that rests on the axle, they use hydraulic dampers to reduce road shocks on the bodywork, have longer draw bars to add towing stability, and are generally heavier and more substantial.

They also (and this is important) use a different profile of aluminium exterior rail to every UK van. German (and other Continental vans, such as Adria) use an 'L' shaped profile, and they place the widest part of that profile across the mastic-filled gap that exists between the wall and roof of the caravan. Nothing particularly innovative about that - it's simple common sense, it's what you'd expect.

But UK vans don't do it, have never done it, and will probably never do it. Why? - I've no idea - you'd best ask the UK manufacturers

Instead of the logical use of an aluminium strip that covers unavoidable gaps, the UK vans leave that gap completely open - filled only with an inferior mastic that will crumble and break, allowing the rain to seep into the bonded walls.

Don't believe me? - take a look at the front of any UK van (best seen from the front, on the roof radius) See the gap? - see the mingy bit of sealing compound in there?......it's like that right along the length of the van - and it's what you're paying

 

[Geist]

Trevor Wrote:

Although very new to this forum I am learning quite a lot about current UK and Foreign built caravans by "tuning in". I do appreciate the differing points of view and do not wish to cause offence here, but, I would like to add some observations if I may?

It would be of real assistance to the likes of me if you Mr/Mrs/Ms Geist (?) would be kind enough to substantiate some of your accusations of "shoddy build quality" please. I am a "born again caravaner" who is looking to purchase a new van soon. You advised me to look at vans which displayed the words: - "'Made In Germany". We have in fact looked at some examples which are very heavy, plain looking inside and with a distinctly "orange" coloured wood finish. Not altogether inviting one to rush out and part with ones "hard earned".

To some people the cars made by Mercedes represent quality. However, to those thousands of owners who over the years have been honest enough to complete a JD Power Customer Satisfaction Survey, they simply do not agree! My request is quite basic - please, please be kind enough to back up your proclamations with some meaningful facts.

Thank you for your past suggestion and I of one would welcome your corroborated advice in the future.

Trevor.⇦br/>

-----------------------------------

-----------------------------------

How on earth does one 'corroborate' these things? - perhaps the best thing would be to point to the Caravan club satisfaction surveys, all of which in recent years have placed German caravans at the top of the lists.

For myself, I have to add my own experience of UK caravans dating from the early 80's.. I remember, for example when 'bonded construction' was introduced and the general excitement it stirred up. At last, we were told, here was a build method that would give light weight and robust construction.

Prior to 'bonded' ' (which is the now universal pre-pressed 'sandwich' of aluminium-foam-plywood) all caravans (even the cheapest ones) comprised an inner timber frame, to which was attached the outer aluminium skin and the inner wall board, the insulation comprised fibreglass wadding (and, later, polystyrene sheets) which was stuffed into the spaces of the wooden framework before the inner board was fixed into place.

The inner board, itself, was covered with a paper-type finish, which stained almost immediately if water ingress occurred.

Thus, when the van leaked (and sooner, or later, they did) the signs of damp were immediately apparent. Then, it was a fairly simple matter to rectify the problem by sealing the leak (obviously) and then removing the wall board, checking if any rot had occurred in the inner framework (and repairing as necessary) then replacing the board and, bingo, the van was as good as new.

Then along came 'bonded' Bonded vans are a very different matter, and are extremely difficult to repair - they have no inner wooden framework, their structural integrity relies on the glue that bonds the core to the inner and outer skins. When water penetrates the inner board will rot - and, because those boards are now vinyl faced, unlike the old 'paper' faced type) you don't even know that it's rotting, until its too late.

I have owned reasonably new caravans where the inner board has rotted completely, leaving holes which were covered only the skin of vinyl decoration. This, by the way, is not the exception - it's a fairly regular occurrence.

From the outside the vans look fine - but inside the walls they are wet and damp and quietly rotting away.

So, what's the answer? The only answer is to keep that water out in the first place! - which is the job of the seals and the mastic.

Enter the Germans...............German vans use a better type of sealing mastic than their UK counterparts - and, what's more, they use a lot more of it! It adheres better, and stays flexible for much longer - which is important because dry mastic crumbles out of the joints as the caravan flexes during travel.

German vans are much more rigid, they don't flex as much when being towed, they incorporate bonded roofs (almost always strong enough to walk on), stronger floors - usually supported by a centre plate that rests on the axle, they use hydraulic dampers to reduce road shocks on the bodywork, have longer draw bars to add towing stability, and are generally heavier and more substantial.

They also (and this is important) use a different profile of aluminium exterior rail to every UK van. German (and other Continental vans, such as Adria) use an 'L' shaped profile, and they place the widest part of that profile across the mastic-filled gap that exists between the wall and roof of the caravan. Nothing particularly innovative about that - it's simple common sense, it's what you'd expect.

But UK vans don't do it, have never done it, and will probably never do it. Why? - I've no idea - you'd best ask the UK manufacturers

Instead of the logical use of an aluminium strip that covers unavoidable gaps, the UK vans leave that gap completely open - filled only with an inferior mastic that will crumble and break, allowing the rain to seep into the bonded walls.

Don't believe me? - take a look at the front of any UK van (best seen from the front, on the roof radius) See the gap? - see the mingy bit of sealing compound in there?......it's like that right along the length of the van - and it's what you're paying

 

[WatsonJohnG]

It sounds like my toys are better than you toys syndrome

 

[Lee.C]

Well we must have been very lucky up to press because we have had five new vans and none of them have leaked but we have friends who have a continental van and have had huge problems with leaks.

I agree with you John!

 

[JackieandSteve_5080688]

Well we must have been very lucky up to press because we have had five new vans and none of them have leaked but we have friends who have a continental van and have had huge problems with leaks.

I agree with you John!

Like Lee.C we have a Elddis Crusader with dark windows and we love it. We bought it as "we" like it and wanted a high quality van so if others don't then don't buy one. As for not being able to see through them we can see out very well and if others are worried they can't see in well i'm not even gonna ask why they'd want to.lol

 

[WatsonJohnG]

I think that they look cool!

 

[JackieandSteve_5080688]

Sorry this went on as a comment and should of been a post.

Like Lee.C we have a Elddis Crusader with dark windows and we love it. We bought it as "we" like it and wanted a high quality van so if others don't then don't buy one. As for not being able to see through them we can see out very well and if others are worried they can't see in well i'm not even gonna ask why they'd want to.lol

 

[Lee.C]

Good on you both .I hope I am pitched next to you when we next go away!

 

[Geist]

It sounds like my toys are better than you toys syndrome

I was was specifically asked why German vans are better and I gave an honest reply.

If you don't agree, that's your privilege - and I don't particularly care because I won't be paying for the damp repair on your (presumably) UK caravan.

People are free to waste their money on an endless succession of leaky Brit vans if they want to - and convince themselves that *this one* won't be like all the others and be as damp as a sponge after two or three years, it's called 'freedom to choose'

As for me, I'm out of that mug's game, and that's my right too.

 

[Geist]

It sounds like my toys are better than you toys syndrome

Sorry - I thought your 'toys' post was directed at my reply to Rover.

Entirely my mistake, I now see that it was unrelated. I was too hasty - and happily apologise.

Regards

 

[WatsonJohnG]

I wonder why this tread on dark windows has become a condemnation of UK vans

Its beyond me

We have had UK vans for 30+ years and only one has had any damp at all and that was minimal.

My present Bailey does not have any damp so I will not need or am I asking for anyone else to pay/not pay for its repair.

It does have a 6 year body warranty and aroof that I am told I could stand on like many German vans--this is something I have no need to do !

Sadly it does not have dark windows but the car much to my initial dismay came with them and I have now learnt to like them.

I do like the look of the dark windows in the caravans just to stray back on to the topic and in fact said so to an owner last time out !

 

[WatsonJohnG]

Sorry - I thought your 'toys' post was directed at my reply to Rover.

Entirely my mistake, I now see that it was unrelated. I was too hasty - and happily apologise.

Regards

It was in reply but somewhat tongue in cheek---wasn't yours !!

 

[AnnM1]

Initailly, we weren't too impressed with the dark windows when they were first 'invented'. However, we are now fully converted, having purchased a 2007 Rallye Compass with this facility. Contrary to belief these vans are not dark inside. Yes, the Elddis model seems dark due to the fact that the upholstery is dark red and the worksurfaces are all black! The darkened windows also help to keep the upholstery from fading, should we get any sun!

 

[trucker]

Geist,

Im on my 3rd new UK van, first one kept for 4 years and second one kept for 3 1/2 years, and current one for 1 year so far. Seviced every year and no sign of damp in any of them. So and I quote

"Do German vans leak? - sometimes, yes, sadly nothing in this life is perfect. The difference is that you will be fairly unlucky if your, say, three year old German caravan leaks. However, you will be very lucky, indeed, if your three year old UK caravan hasn't done the same. Also worth pointing out that the German vans don't use that horrible vinyl wall board - so if a leak does occur, it's easy to spot before things get out of hand"

Blows tht thory out of the water then dosnt it. 3 vans 2 different manifacturs NO leaks.

as for not spotting the leak before its too late, ever herd of an anual service, this would pick up on these kind of issues and then you would have the chance to sort out before its too late.

I get fed up to my back teeth with people that slag off uk this and uk that, so german vans may be better but that does not make uk vans crap

Kevin H

 

[WatsonJohnG]

Kevin it seems to be a trend to ridicule UK/French/W H Y to make your own possesions look good

I had a mother in law who belittled everyone to boost her own ego so I recognise the mode of operation.

Regards

 

[DeliDave]

I wonder why this tread on dark windows has become a condemnation of UK vans

Its beyond me

We have had UK vans for 30+ years and only one has had any damp at all and that was minimal.

My present Bailey does not have any damp so I will not need or am I asking for anyone else to pay/not pay for its repair.

It does have a 6 year body warranty and aroof that I am told I could stand on like many German vans--this is something I have no need to do !

Sadly it does not have dark windows but the car much to my initial dismay came with them and I have now learnt to like them.

I do like the look of the dark windows in the caravans just to stray back on to the topic and in fact said so to an owner last time out !

To back up your posting,we have a Bailey Indiana and I have stood on it to clean roof with no ill effects that I know of.

 

[Steven_374224300]

Quote "German vans are much more rigid, they don't flex as much when being towed, they incorporate bonded roofs (almost always strong enough to walk on)".

Our 7 year old Bessacarr has the flexible mastic to seal all joints, does not leak AND I can walk on the roof as I have done on numerous occasions to clean it, fit a solar panel, etc.

It is the first and only caravan we have had, which we bought in Sept 2006. Looking at other models including UK and European models, we decided that for build quality nothing came close.

Is this the way the caravan market has deteriorated since our caravan was made, or am I missing something?

Steven.

 

[SMS]

Hi

Over the past 12 years we have had four from new British Caravans, 1 Avondale, 3 Baileys. I know mine is only a small sample but I have never had any water problems with any of them. Perhaps just good luck. Likewise it is perhaps just bad look that other forum members have had problems with Brit caravans. My own guess is that that "reality" lies somewhere between.