http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1342357/Central-heating-break-big-freeze-Heres-.html
Interesting article on heating and the effect on our expenditure!
Interesting article on heating and the effect on our expenditure!
Re "Condenser pipe freezing" Were we Conned Again?
- Thread starter OmOnWeelz
- Start date
Parksy
Moderator
Thats exactly what's been happening to my best mates central heating over the recent cold spell.
The heating engineer showed him how to clear the pipe and he's had to do himself it a couple of times a week since.
The heating engineer showed him how to clear the pipe and he's had to do himself it a couple of times a week since.
It was me who started the thread about our condense pipe freezing.
In the end, we sorted it out ourselves. The amount of ice which kept forming inside the pipe each day/night was unbelievable. In the end, after pouring red hot water down the pipes on numerous occasions, we had to simply take some of the piping which lead to the drain, off, leaving a shorter pipe with the water dripping into a bucket. Now we are out of that extremely cold snap, the pipes have been reconnected
Incidentially, whilst my husband was stranded miles away in the van, and I got home in a 4x4, then a train, when I got home, (-9 that night). I couldn't understand why my kitchen was soo cold. There wasn't a problem with the condense pipe at that stage. After two days of having the radiators on full in the kitchen, but still really cold, I realised that someone had left the windows in the kitchen on vent! I even ended up making my own draught excluders with my daughters out of fashion jeans to stop the cold coming under the door from the kitchen but that's another story.
Lisa
In the end, we sorted it out ourselves. The amount of ice which kept forming inside the pipe each day/night was unbelievable. In the end, after pouring red hot water down the pipes on numerous occasions, we had to simply take some of the piping which lead to the drain, off, leaving a shorter pipe with the water dripping into a bucket. Now we are out of that extremely cold snap, the pipes have been reconnected
Incidentially, whilst my husband was stranded miles away in the van, and I got home in a 4x4, then a train, when I got home, (-9 that night). I couldn't understand why my kitchen was soo cold. There wasn't a problem with the condense pipe at that stage. After two days of having the radiators on full in the kitchen, but still really cold, I realised that someone had left the windows in the kitchen on vent! I even ended up making my own draught excluders with my daughters out of fashion jeans to stop the cold coming under the door from the kitchen but that's another story.
Lisa
Yes i will say that article is a good informative read in the most part, but having just had a condensing boiler fitting in September a Worcester, i found the advice given concerning not using one to be, well frankly rubbish. Ours comes with 3 years warranty and even in this short space of time compared to our old back boiler, the savings are huge.so to suggest just keeping your old boiler is ridiculous unless you are not big users of gas in the first place. As you can see from the photo in the advert its bleeding obvious that a plastic pipe in the open in these type of exceptional cold periods could lend itself to freezing! and maybe foam sleeving should be fitted as standard by the fitter,as was done to ours.
Same here. we have a new Worcester Bosch boiler. But our condensate pipe does not go outside our house as it goes in to the internal drainage system so there is little chance of it freezing.
The really interesting part of th article is about the temperature of the water returning to the boiler, it has to be below 55c temperatue for the condensing to work and the boiler be efficient. If the water returning to the boiler is over that the boiler will no be operating at the claimed 93% efficiency or making the claimed saving on gas. Putting my Gunson thermometer on the return pipe to our boiler it's shown reading between 52 and 57 degrees today. Turning the radiators stats up in the spare bedrooms brought the return temp down and the plumes from the boiler seem to show the boiler is condensing more than before Installer pal says that's better for the gas bill and boiler longevity
plus there is now more flow through the clear condensate pipe to the drain.
The really interesting part of th article is about the temperature of the water returning to the boiler, it has to be below 55c temperatue for the condensing to work and the boiler be efficient. If the water returning to the boiler is over that the boiler will no be operating at the claimed 93% efficiency or making the claimed saving on gas. Putting my Gunson thermometer on the return pipe to our boiler it's shown reading between 52 and 57 degrees today. Turning the radiators stats up in the spare bedrooms brought the return temp down and the plumes from the boiler seem to show the boiler is condensing more than before Installer pal says that's better for the gas bill and boiler longevity
Mel
Moderator
Our condensate pipe froze but the boiler did not stop working as it continued to just overflow and leak into the kitchen. Not a problem as we just stuck a large bowl under it. What amazed me was the quantity of water given off by the system, a very large (big salad serving) bowl over half a day. Not surprised it was able to freeze given the stupid, (horizontal) angle of the pipe where it left the house. The website advertises that you can buy some electrical gizmo to stop it happening. Sod that, this is the first time in 15 years of condensate pipes. Extra lagging, hot water for defrosting, and a large salad bowl for us.
mel
mel
Well dont always believe what you read in the papers! If you have a "good" condensing boiler it will last for 10years or more, mine is already that old. If they are installed correctly then you should not have any more problems than any other boiler, but I do agree that the parts are more expensive!. The condensate pipe should be run internally if it is possible so it cant freeze, if it cant be inside then they should be lagged with waterproof lagging, if the pipe run is over 2m it should be in the larger 32mm pipe and it is best to run in with as much drop as possible. There is a electrical heater than can be fitted called a trace heater, but only in my opinion if you have made sure the pipe is run correctly and lagged, a lot of times it is where the pipe goes that is the problem eg down pipe/gutters. If it does freeze then defrost as people have said is the correct thing to do. I have done quite a few being a gas engineer but all have been ones installed incorrectly and with no lagging. There are a lot of rubbish cheep condensing boilers on the market and these are the ones to avoid because they will only last around 5yrs if you are lucky. My advice is to sick to the main makes eg Vaillant,Worcester,Glowworm,Baxi/Potterton.
There are numerous complaints on different forums about these condenser boilers freezing up and it is a problem that is well known in the industry and ahs been for a number of years. I wonder how much it would cost to insert a small element into the outlet pipe that heats up when the temperature drops below zero? It could be run off a 9v battery with a low warning light or beep and should cost pennies to fit.
Seems another Labour legacy that we have to live with for the rest of our naturla lives!
Seems another Labour legacy that we have to live with for the rest of our naturla lives!
! Apparently, since 2005 these boilers have been fitted at a rate of 1.4 million units a year in the UK alone. They have been around for way way longer than that, we have one fitted abroad and that's 16 years old, in fact in winter the region where we have a property does hit the cold temps we have been getting here of late, and the unit has been used by extended members of my family for all these years. "numerous complaint" What does numerous mean when you put it into perspective of the 10s of millions of these units in use? could it not be a case of badly installed units? or extreme situations?or a bit of both?Uvongo93 said:
In that scaremongering report it makes issues of how long it would take to get your money back by fitting one of these units, I do like how they always take the most extreme view point for the purpose of sensationalising their story! which of course is pure ball for the vast majority of people who will at some point need a replacement boiler anyway so the extra cost is meet by the better efficiency in a quarter of the time if not sooner depending again on so many factors to do with the property itself, which reports like this fail to ever mention.
But there is a fair point concerning all of today's modern products and their longevity and the cost of replacement of parts too.
I would love to read a report like the one above but using modern vehicles as their topic. from a cost perspective taking in the huge losses in value the potential huge cost of replacement parts ect ect.now that would make interesting reading.
When I installed our replacement boiler approximately two / three years ago, I put the boiler in the end kitchen cupboard. I was going to run the condensate pipe straight through the wall and down into the drain, then I realised that the hosepipe is there and that that always freezes. I therefore ran the condensate pipe straight down, and fitted another u-bend under the sink with a vertical pipe that it just drains into. As it is all indoors it has never frozen - Best start counting the chickens...............
Chris.
Chris.
Chris
Thats my point!
If you can run it internally thats what you are supposed to do but its too easy for people to just go straight outside like in your example.
Thats my point!
If you can run it internally thats what you are supposed to do but its too easy for people to just go straight outside like in your example.
I still think some of you are missing part of this. Freezing is not the only issue!
The condensing boilers are supposed to be far more efficient. Our WB Boiler is fine but we've not noticed any great savings in gas use since we got it. It gets the rads hotter faster than the old gas boiler and doesn't seem to come on and off as much, bit it no great saving in gas. The old boiler had been in use for over thirty years.
We have a floor mounted Worcester Bosch 42 ??? that cost £1500+ trade rather than £2900+ list price. Installation was free as I did all the plumbing alterations and a Gas Safe installer friend fitted and connected it to the gas supply FOC. We've not noticed any savings yet in gas use and if the old boiler lasted 30 years plus so should the new one. 10 years would be an expensive insult.
Apart from Freezing condensate issues for some users are we all getting the savings we've been promissed ?
The condensing boilers are supposed to be far more efficient. Our WB Boiler is fine but we've not noticed any great savings in gas use since we got it. It gets the rads hotter faster than the old gas boiler and doesn't seem to come on and off as much, bit it no great saving in gas. The old boiler had been in use for over thirty years.
We have a floor mounted Worcester Bosch 42 ??? that cost £1500+ trade rather than £2900+ list price. Installation was free as I did all the plumbing alterations and a Gas Safe installer friend fitted and connected it to the gas supply FOC. We've not noticed any savings yet in gas use and if the old boiler lasted 30 years plus so should the new one. 10 years would be an expensive insult.
Apart from Freezing condensate issues for some users are we all getting the savings we've been promissed ?
Did you update from a gravity HW system?
Have you got a room thermostat AND thermostats on the radiators?
Did you flush the system really well before fiting the new boiler?
All of these things help to make it more efficient
The boiler IS more efficient than your old one even when not condensing, but you only get the max savings when it is condensing which has been said before.
The main thing is the price of gas going UP offsets the savings!
Have you got a room thermostat AND thermostats on the radiators?
Did you flush the system really well before fiting the new boiler?
All of these things help to make it more efficient
The boiler IS more efficient than your old one even when not condensing, but you only get the max savings when it is condensing which has been said before.
The main thing is the price of gas going UP offsets the savings!
the problem with fitting a new condensing boiler into an existing heating system is that it is very difficult to meet the necessary parameters for the boiler to work properly.
firstly, your existing heating system was probably designed to run a temperature differential of 11 degreesC, with a flow temperature of about 78 to 82 degreesC.
both these figures will prevent a condensing boiler from ever running in condensing mode. it is imperative that the temperature differential be 20 degreesC, and the flow temperature should not exceed 55 degreesC. this would typically mean that your radiators will reach about 50 degrees, which won't heat your home if the radiators were sized assuming an 82 degree flow temp. so invariably what happens is the boiler thermostat is set higher to make the radiators hotter, but the boiler loses about 15 % efficiency by doing so.
you need to adjust your boiler to give a max flow temp of 55 degrees, and balance each radiator until you have a 20 degree differential at each flow and return, do the same at the hot water cylinder if you have one, and make sure any bypass valve fitted is a pressure sensitive automatic type and not a gatevalve or ballofix.
and if you really want to make the best of it, invest in a weather compensation system which will alter the radiator surface temps according to the outside temperature. in conjunction with a programmable delayed start programmable room stat, and radiator thermostats you could save another 15% on your fuel bills.
regarding condensation pipes freezing. this is almost entirely due to incorrect installation. pipes running "horizontally" should actually run to a 7 1/2 degree fall. most importantly, where the pipes passes through the skin of the building it must not touch the fabric of the building. if it does it will freeze at that point. foam insulation is only really effective down to about -7, and it won't make a blind bit of difference of the pipe is touching the brickwork at -15.
firstly, your existing heating system was probably designed to run a temperature differential of 11 degreesC, with a flow temperature of about 78 to 82 degreesC.
both these figures will prevent a condensing boiler from ever running in condensing mode. it is imperative that the temperature differential be 20 degreesC, and the flow temperature should not exceed 55 degreesC. this would typically mean that your radiators will reach about 50 degrees, which won't heat your home if the radiators were sized assuming an 82 degree flow temp. so invariably what happens is the boiler thermostat is set higher to make the radiators hotter, but the boiler loses about 15 % efficiency by doing so.
you need to adjust your boiler to give a max flow temp of 55 degrees, and balance each radiator until you have a 20 degree differential at each flow and return, do the same at the hot water cylinder if you have one, and make sure any bypass valve fitted is a pressure sensitive automatic type and not a gatevalve or ballofix.
and if you really want to make the best of it, invest in a weather compensation system which will alter the radiator surface temps according to the outside temperature. in conjunction with a programmable delayed start programmable room stat, and radiator thermostats you could save another 15% on your fuel bills.
regarding condensation pipes freezing. this is almost entirely due to incorrect installation. pipes running "horizontally" should actually run to a 7 1/2 degree fall. most importantly, where the pipes passes through the skin of the building it must not touch the fabric of the building. if it does it will freeze at that point. foam insulation is only really effective down to about -7, and it won't make a blind bit of difference of the pipe is touching the brickwork at -15.
We had a pumped system fed from attic header tank to a Baxi gas fire with back boiler. I replaced most of the plumbing and all the rads were removed for repainting and cleaned out. Six rads from the orignal part of the house were replaced with modern rads to match the rest of the house and all rads have stats and there's a new room stat.
We have the old bills and it's actual gas use that has changed very little and the house is now better insulated since we had the central heating updated. Other people we know have also found that the ammount of gas they use is not that much different when they've changed to a new boiler.
We have the old bills and it's actual gas use that has changed very little and the house is now better insulated since we had the central heating updated. Other people we know have also found that the ammount of gas they use is not that much different when they've changed to a new boiler.
don't think i'm being cheeky chris, but i'll say it again.
have you balanced the entire system to a 20degree temperature differential, including the hot cylinder circuit, and set the flow temp to 55 degrees?
if not then the boiler will never operate in condensing mode and you won't save a penny. the 20degree differential is critical. which is why condensing technology is so effective with underfloor systems.
also, you really should use a programmable roomstat, rather than a roomstat and programmer. the programmable type will keep the house above a preset temp, ideally 15degrees. the standard on/off type will allow the room temps to drop below this critical point, and the amount of energy consumed in raising the temp above this point again is phenomenal.
have you balanced the entire system to a 20degree temperature differential, including the hot cylinder circuit, and set the flow temp to 55 degrees?
if not then the boiler will never operate in condensing mode and you won't save a penny. the 20degree differential is critical. which is why condensing technology is so effective with underfloor systems.
also, you really should use a programmable roomstat, rather than a roomstat and programmer. the programmable type will keep the house above a preset temp, ideally 15degrees. the standard on/off type will allow the room temps to drop below this critical point, and the amount of energy consumed in raising the temp above this point again is phenomenal.
There must be something seriously wrong if a back boiler uses the same amount of gas units or less than a condensing boiler.
I know sweet FA about this sort of thing, but having had 3 back boilers over a 2 decade period have always been advised to go to a combi or indeed now to these glorified combi [condensing] boilers.
mcghee. you seem to know what you are talking about, we were advised to set the condensing boiler to thermostat number 6 which is 1 mark short of MAX and then set each rad thermostat to how warm we want.
Me being me, normally i have the boiler set thermostat at anywhere between the numbers of 2 and 4, is this effecting its performance ?
I know sweet FA about this sort of thing, but having had 3 back boilers over a 2 decade period have always been advised to go to a combi or indeed now to these glorified combi [condensing] boilers.
mcghee. you seem to know what you are talking about, we were advised to set the condensing boiler to thermostat number 6 which is 1 mark short of MAX and then set each rad thermostat to how warm we want.
Me being me, normally i have the boiler set thermostat at anywhere between the numbers of 2 and 4, is this effecting its performance ?
its impossible to say what number on the dial corresponds to what flow temp. max is typically about 80, so one stage below that is probably about 65-70.
using the radiator stats will achieve satisfactory room temps, but the boiler may still be operating outside its efficiency range.
i would suggest if its a condensing boiler the boilerstat should be set to about 4, or "eco" if it has an eco setting. if it's a non condensing boiler set the boilerstat to max, since it will not be dependent on specific flow temp to achieve high efficiency.
even if you don't have a condensing boiler it is still important to have the system properly balanced, 11degree differential in the case of a standard efficiency boiler. each radiator has a specific heat output at a given flow temp and temp differential, known as deltaT. so if you have an excess of heat passing through one radiator the radiator will not give out any more heat. rather it will pass the excess heat back to the boiler, reducing the differential at the boiler and will in effect shut the heating system down while the other radiators are not at operating temp.
radiator thermostats will overcome that to a point but by treating the symptoms rather than curing the disease. one of the problems we have is that condensing boilers were forced onto the uk market when a lot of installers actually knew very little about the operating principles and many tried to make them work the same way as standard efficiency boilers. there are many installers i know who are still the same, they just don't get technology and are advising customers extremely badly and not doing a bad job as such, but not making the most of the condensating technology either.
one ther point if you have a combi. if it has a "comfort" setting for the hot water use it. what this does is keeps the hot water heat exchanger hot all the time, so there's very little if any draw off time before you get hot water at the tap. it means the boiler fires for hot water for a few seconds every half hour or so, but it actually reduces gas consumption for hot water in the long run.
using the radiator stats will achieve satisfactory room temps, but the boiler may still be operating outside its efficiency range.
i would suggest if its a condensing boiler the boilerstat should be set to about 4, or "eco" if it has an eco setting. if it's a non condensing boiler set the boilerstat to max, since it will not be dependent on specific flow temp to achieve high efficiency.
even if you don't have a condensing boiler it is still important to have the system properly balanced, 11degree differential in the case of a standard efficiency boiler. each radiator has a specific heat output at a given flow temp and temp differential, known as deltaT. so if you have an excess of heat passing through one radiator the radiator will not give out any more heat. rather it will pass the excess heat back to the boiler, reducing the differential at the boiler and will in effect shut the heating system down while the other radiators are not at operating temp.
radiator thermostats will overcome that to a point but by treating the symptoms rather than curing the disease. one of the problems we have is that condensing boilers were forced onto the uk market when a lot of installers actually knew very little about the operating principles and many tried to make them work the same way as standard efficiency boilers. there are many installers i know who are still the same, they just don't get technology and are advising customers extremely badly and not doing a bad job as such, but not making the most of the condensating technology either.
one ther point if you have a combi. if it has a "comfort" setting for the hot water use it. what this does is keeps the hot water heat exchanger hot all the time, so there's very little if any draw off time before you get hot water at the tap. it means the boiler fires for hot water for a few seconds every half hour or so, but it actually reduces gas consumption for hot water in the long run.
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