refillable lpg bottles

[Dave_374295256]

Pros & cons please

 

[Murdan]

The only con I would say is the initial cost of the bottle the pro is you can fill it up your self at any petrol station that sells LPG just as you would fill up your car if it ran on LPG.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Dave,

I assume you are talking about purchasing a bottle and having the same one refilled.

PROS:

Owning you own tanks

Cheaper gas (if you are lucky)

Cons

Cost of owning your own tanks and having it tested for safety

Limited filling locations in the UK.

Cost of tank repair/replacement if it develops a fault

Third party liability if a faulty tank causes loss or injury

Often non standard sizes to fit caravan storage.

Because of insurance limitations, you are not allowed to refill portable LPG tanks on garage forecourts. This severely limits your options.

Technically, you should assessed as being competent to fill portable LPG containers under H&S and insurance regulations.

Actually the Calor Gas bottles are refillable, but only Calor are allowed to do it so they offer them on an exchange basis. There are other suppliers who offer a similar service. (Flow Gas , Shell and others) They only refill their own bottles (except where special licences are agreed and granted).

The advantage of this is that the bottles are regularly tested for safety, and if a fault has developed it doesn't cost you as you only rent the bottle, and if a faulty bottle were the cause of loss or injury the owner of the bottle is liable.

Unless you have access to a supply of LPG, and you use a lot of it, then it is questionable if owning bottles is a worthwhile investment.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The only con I would say is the initial cost of the bottle the pro is you can fill it up your self at any petrol station that sells LPG just as you would fill up your car if it ran on LPG.

Sorry Daniel,

Many petrol stations are not allowed to refill portable LPG containers for insurance and safety reasons see below.

 

[Murdan]

Sorry Daniel,

Many petrol stations are not allowed to refill portable LPG containers for insurance and safety reasons see below.

Well that contradicts Gasflow refillable LPG comments on there web site you just fill the bottle at the petrol station as you would any other fuel it is in effect the same as filling your lpg tank in your car if you have one the same connections.

Why User Refillable LPG? The simple answer is that they are so much more convenient and especially so for European travellers. This convenience comes in several ways, first you no longer have to lift heavy cylinders in and out of your motorhome because they are installed with a remote filler, second you no longer have to search for the right brand and size of bottle, and third you no longer have to worry about the best moment to change because you can top them up any time you like - just like other fuels! A bonus is that the gas is quite a bit cheaper too, often around half the price of bottled gas. So why struggle connecting, lifting and carrying heavy gas bottles and then pay 50% more for the gas than you have to? And why experience the European travel nightmare where you run out of gas and cannot exchange your empty cylinder for a full one? Well, no reason at all if you go refillable! There is a minus point of course in that you have to pay more for the initial installation but this is now very affordable with Gaslow bottles and the cheaper gas will compensate too. What's more you can keep your gas cylinders when you change 'vans.

Popular Misconception: You have to save up for a twin installation. Wrong! As long as you add a gauge you can manage perfectly well with just one bottle because there is no exchange involved. You just top up your gas whenever you wish or when the gauge says you are getting low just as you would your vehicle's diesel tank - and you don't have two diesel tanks do you?! The case for twin refillables is simply to carry more gas for longer intervals between top-ups. But many small gas lockers designed for 2x6Kg will take the compact 11Kg Gaslow cylinder so you get nearly as much gas in the single cylinder anyway! And if you do decide later that you need a second cylinder of either size the upgrade route is very easy.

 

[paul_5063654]

Sorry Daniel,

Many petrol stations are not allowed to refill portable LPG containers for insurance and safety reasons see below.

Hello Dave,

The best one to install is the Gaslow i've had mine approaching 2 years now. There is no problem filling up because it is the same principle as filling my car that runs on gas.You can't overfill it either as it has a shut off valve.I have just one tank with a spare calor cylinder if i get stuck(never have and this is the same cylinder i've had for the 2 years).

I fill mine from empty for less than a fiver, how much is a Calor propane re-fill now?

Regards Paul

 

[paul_5063654]

Hello Dave,

The best system to go for is the Gaslow you don't have any problems with filling up as it is basically the same principal as filling your car when it runs on LPG and you can't overfill it as it has a automatic shut off valve when full.

I've had mine for 2 years now and never had any problem filling up. I just have the one tank with a second Calor if i ever get stuck (never had and this is the same tank i've had for the 2 years).

It cost me less than a fiver to fill from empty how much is a Calor propane cylinder now?

Hope this Helps

Paul

 

[David.O]

dave

Like most things we do in the UK there is alot of hot air generated around your topic. look on Ebay there is all the equipment you need and it costs about

 

[rob_jax]

Aside from my normal job I chair a number of refinery / petroleum panels, and one of the tasks is to keep panel members informed on recent safety issues. And the latest safety incident involves an LPG accident:

(Paraphrasing the actual report) Samples of LPG that need additional "off-line" tests are taken from the refinery to the plant laboratory - these samples are transported in mini gas bottles holding around 500 grams of gas.

An experienced operator failed to correctly tighten the gas bottle to the test instrumentation - a leak developed which went unnoticed - resulting in a gas / air explosion and subsequent fire - the operator suffered severe burns (but is OK now).

Around the world, these mini gas bottles are used thousands of time each day, but even the most experienced operator can make mistakes or damaged fittings may go unnoticed.

Back to caravanning:

Refillable gas bottles (which have an internal cut-off valve to prevent overfilling) have (almost) idiot proof couplings for the fill point - these offer the same level of safety as refilling a LPG fuelled car - which is similar to refilling a car with petrol.

Calor-gas,Flo-gas, etc., exchange type gas bottles do not, and a home brewed connector would need to be fabricated - just don't go there - as I'm sure you wouldn't.

The garage forecourt staff would need to be trained to differentiate between refillable bottles and similar "exchange" bottles - for all sorts of reasons that's not going to happen.

Terms and conditions of operation, insurance, etc., means that UK garage forecourts don't allow user refilling of any gas bottle.

So if you plan to follow the refillable bottle route, you need to find a gas bottle refilling station - where the operators should be trained in both operation and safety issues.

Robert

 

[David.O]

dave

Like most things we do in the UK there is alot of hot air generated around your topic. look on Ebay there is all the equipment you need and it costs about

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello David,

I have looked at the Ebay listing (which has finished now).

Whilst the product seems to allow the user to refill Propane bottles with POL connectors, its use in the UK on garage forecourts is illegal, a situation that is obviously recognised by the seller who suggests doing it in the boot of the car, I guess to avoid being observed. I am not sure what action a forecourt owner can take if you are discovered, but I am sure it would involve severe sanctions.

That practice is highly dangerous, as the gas vapour is heavier than air, and would pool in the boot or seep into the saloon, where there are many potential sources of ignition.

There are also some minor differences between the standards of the 'POL' fittings depending on which market they are manufactured for, so a slight mismatch could have dire consequences.

I commend the seller for posting the warnings about being competent, but unless you have been trained and assessed as competent, it is almost certain that the Health & Safety Exec would consider you to be not competent. - for example do you know what action to take if you do have a spillage or leak?

I would remind you that if the HSE prosecute it is always under Criminal Law as opposed to civil law with the consequences that this entails.

It is certainly illegal to refill rented bottles unless you are licensed by the owners, and as an individual without the necessary inspection and testing facilities that is unlikely to be granted.

 

[David.O]

Hello David,

I have looked at the Ebay listing (which has finished now).

Whilst the product seems to allow the user to refill Propane bottles with POL connectors, its use in the UK on garage forecourts is illegal, a situation that is obviously recognised by the seller who suggests doing it in the boot of the car, I guess to avoid being observed. I am not sure what action a forecourt owner can take if you are discovered, but I am sure it would involve severe sanctions.

That practice is highly dangerous, as the gas vapour is heavier than air, and would pool in the boot or seep into the saloon, where there are many potential sources of ignition.

There are also some minor differences between the standards of the 'POL' fittings depending on which market they are manufactured for, so a slight mismatch could have dire consequences.

I commend the seller for posting the warnings about being competent, but unless you have been trained and assessed as competent, it is almost certain that the Health & Safety Exec would consider you to be not competent. - for example do you know what action to take if you do have a spillage or leak?

I would remind you that if the HSE prosecute it is always under Criminal Law as opposed to civil law with the consequences that this entails.

It is certainly illegal to refill rented bottles unless you are licensed by the owners, and as an individual without the necessary inspection and testing facilities that is unlikely to be granted.

John L

Yes I read what you say and I am sure you are correct, any type of fuel filling needs care, and you need to be aware of the dangers as much with petrol as with gas. All I would say many thousands of refillable cylinders are used in the UK in industry look, at the number of fork lift trucks on LPG. Last year when in France I was amazed at the number of Dutch vans that had the cylinders as sold by MTH Autogas. I asked one how he refilled his and the reply I had was to take it to the local filling station as he did whilst on site. On my return I got 2 which were not cheep but we have bulk gas at 28p a liter will soon pay for itself. To finish I do feel we in the UK hide behind the skirts of the HSE instead of using some common sense.

David

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello again David,

I am more than aware of the refillable types used on lift trucks, and that actually illustrates my point. These tanks are filled by authorised personnel, who will have received training and been assessed as competent to complete the task. Insurers are insistent on this.

The tanks are not 'hidden' in a car boot, they will be filled in a correctly ventilated place approved for the purpose, so that filling is conducted in a controlled manner.

The bottles used will have been approved for this type of filling, and if rented, the owners will have licensed the company to fill.

This is not an adhoc arrangement, it is well controlled, which is why so few accidents do occur in the UK.

LPG like its cousin petrol is highly combustible, but it does require different handling, so knowledge of using petrol does not automatically endow the user with an adequate knowledge of handling LPG. It is by definition not 'common knowledge' or 'common sense'.

You do not make it clear if your Dutch friends were refilling their bottles in the UK at filling stations, but it is highly likely that the filling station was not aware of their activity, or possibly the forecourt attendant may have failed to enact the company rules on such activity with regards to safety, insurance, and competence.

The HSE along with the petrochemical industry issue guidelines, but sadly in most cases the HSE only become involved from a prosecution angle if an incident has occurred.

I am not against private ownership of bottles in fact I have had some of my own, and it sounds as though like me you have access to a refill station at your place of work. This is fine provided you are assessed as competent to use the facility, and of course it I properly accounted and paid for. You will of course also have made proper arrangements to have your bottles tested for safety on a regular basis. Have you told your caravan insurance company that you are using your own bottles?

 

[David.O]

Hello again David,

I am more than aware of the refillable types used on lift trucks, and that actually illustrates my point. These tanks are filled by authorised personnel, who will have received training and been assessed as competent to complete the task. Insurers are insistent on this.

The tanks are not 'hidden' in a car boot, they will be filled in a correctly ventilated place approved for the purpose, so that filling is conducted in a controlled manner.

The bottles used will have been approved for this type of filling, and if rented, the owners will have licensed the company to fill.

This is not an adhoc arrangement, it is well controlled, which is why so few accidents do occur in the UK.

LPG like its cousin petrol is highly combustible, but it does require different handling, so knowledge of using petrol does not automatically endow the user with an adequate knowledge of handling LPG. It is by definition not 'common knowledge' or 'common sense'.

You do not make it clear if your Dutch friends were refilling their bottles in the UK at filling stations, but it is highly likely that the filling station was not aware of their activity, or possibly the forecourt attendant may have failed to enact the company rules on such activity with regards to safety, insurance, and competence.

The HSE along with the petrochemical industry issue guidelines, but sadly in most cases the HSE only become involved from a prosecution angle if an incident has occurred.

I am not against private ownership of bottles in fact I have had some of my own, and it sounds as though like me you have access to a refill station at your place of work. This is fine provided you are assessed as competent to use the facility, and of course it I properly accounted and paid for. You will of course also have made proper arrangements to have your bottles tested for safety on a regular basis. Have you told your caravan insurance company that you are using your own bottles?

No to your last. also they do not know I use them for my Cadac at home , but they did replace them when my workshop got cleared out recently.

David.