Replies to posts.

[Parksy]

The 'offending' word would be fine and completely innofensive on most forums and it was clearly intended as a joke.
Because forum posts are regularly used in the 'Hot Topic' sections of Practical Caravan magazine and some times with permission in the letters page (members are all legends in our own lunchtimes, fame at last) we can't take a chance on the odd naughty word or phrase slipping through, I'm sure that these would be seen and removed by Haymarket but what about if they missed one that we'd left on and it was printed in the magazine.....?
The fault would be the mods who should pick up on these things before anything untoward happened or before Mr Angry from Surbiton had to reach for the blood pressure tablets and the green ink. If we edit out one 'colourful' bit of ribaldry we have to edit all of them so unfurtunately the mild banter in Colin's post has to be treated the same as 'stronger' words even though it was obviously a joke and not intentionally offensive.

On the old forum things could sometimes move quickly so if someone who had asked a question replied a couple of weeks later the post would appear at the 'top' of the forum.
The trouble was that on days when the forum was busy the post could very quickly sink down to the bottom of the pile unnoticed and it would disappear when the new forum page loaded. This often gave the impression that posts had been deleted or that newbies hadn't replied after obtaining advice or information.

Quite often newbies have only recently gained access to a computer, they might not be too sure how it works and they haven't been members of forums before. It can be a bit daunting for a newbie to take the plunge and submit a post to forums where more established members exchange easy banter and appear to 'know' each other so no matter how obvious the question might seem I try to provide some sort of friendly response as a form of encouragement.

 

[Lutz]

I can't quite see why 'naughty' words need to be removed so long as they not used in an insulting manner, in which case the whole text needs to be edited out. Even if they are not in the best of taste and I wouldn't in any way condone their use, even the most innocent of us must be aware of them so why pretend they don't exist? This is a comment in general and not aimed specifically at this forum.

 

[Parksy]

I can't quite see why 'naughty' words need to be removed so long as they not used in an insulting manner, in which case the whole text needs to be edited out. Even if they are not in the best of taste and I wouldn't in any way condone their use, even the most innocent of us must be aware of them so why pretend they don't exist? This is a comment in general and not aimed specifically at this forum.

No matter what is posted on forums somebody or other will take offence.
We regard our written conversations as being held in mixed company and convention and good manners dictates that these words or phrases are not appropriate for such use at least amongst those of us from the older generation.

 

[Guest]

I can sympathise with Colin’s comments regarding answering the same questions over and over again. Possibly ‘newbies’ could consider that many of us managed to survive in the hobby, without access to any form of computer or Forum. Word of mouth was helpful, up to a point, because if you followed some else’s bad advice then you could easily find yourself in the proverbial. As far as I am aware there is no Statement on this Forum from Haymarket accepting any liability for any advice, and why should there be? There is also no guarantee that any so called ‘expert’ is actually a true expert because there is no written ev idence to confirm it. I could tell you that I am a brain surgeon but I would be wary of letting me near your head with a knife. I am becoming more and more of the opinion that people use the web and any forum often as an easy option. After all it saves them getting out of their chair and actually trying to find the information they require. 99% of it concerning this hobby is out there either from the various Clubs or the many very comprehensive books written on the subject. The local Public Library has all of them, as I have found by looking on the shelves. By all means ask questions on issues not covered, then we all can learn.
I also have on occasions felt the ‘seagull policy’ is often best. As the adult bird kicks its large chick out of the nest on the cliff and states ‘if you have not yet learned how to fly, figure it out on the way down’.
I am always willing to assist any fellow camper in any way I can, and have done so on frequent occasions, but I am not a babysitter.

 

[Mel]

I do understand the tedium of answering questions that have been asked before and the eye rolling effect of very niave questions. However, surely pretty much all the questions that could have been asked, have been asked by now, so on this logic perhaps the forum could just be mothballed as a reference work? Obviously not, because we all want to talk to each other. Can I suggest that this is the main function of forums such as these. People can get information from books and other reference works, but what they want, and what those of us who post on here want, is to engage and talk with people who are into caravanning. Its a sort of identity. People want to connect with one another and this is as important as the thousandth incarnation of 'how to measure noseweight'.
mel

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

hi all.
good post Scotch Lad my sentiment exactly I would never try to dissuade anyone from asking questions and would help if I could make a contribution to the tread however I would also take the pragmatic view that questions on forums should be one of the last avenues to try if everthing else fails or if one requires confirmation of the facts allready gained, not the first place to find out information without bothering to look elsewhere. if only because of the time scale involved gaining the info. If my car would not start in the morning when I wanted to use it I would ring the RAC or whatever and let them sort it out not immediatly go inside and ask on the owners forum why it would not start. BUT if there was a re-occuring fault that seemed to have no solution I may the post a question in hope that other members may have a answer either through past experience or one of the many teccies who go online have come across similar problems, in my view caravan forums are exactly the same.

I do take on board the comments of MEL and yes this forum is like a community where info and general chat can take place but remember this the forum is only a small part of the practical caravan web space the wealth of infomation it contains is as wide as its data base. why ask a question about towing law when there is a full section on just this topic, all you have to do is just look but the gauling thing is some can't be bothered.

colin

 

[Parksy]

hi all.
good post Scotch Lad my sentiment exactly I would never try to dissuade anyone from asking questions and would help if I could make a contribution to the tread however I would also take the pragmatic view that questions on forums should be one of the last avenues to try if everthing else fails or if one requires confirmation of the facts allready gained, not the first place to find out information without bothering to look elsewhere. if only because of the time scale involved gaining the info. If my car would not start in the morning when I wanted to use it I would ring the RAC or whatever and let them sort it out not immediatly go inside and ask on the owners forum why it would not start. BUT if there was a re-occuring fault that seemed to have no solution I may the post a question in hope that other members may have a answer either through past experience or one of the many teccies who go online have come across similar problems, in my view caravan forums are exactly the same.

I do take on board the comments of MEL and yes this forum is like a community where info and general chat can take place but remember this the forum is only a small part of the practical caravan web space the wealth of infomation it contains is as wide as its data base. why ask a question about towing law when there is a full section on just this topic, all you have to do is just look but the gauling thing is some can't be bothered.

colin

If every member of any caravan forum on the internet adopted the same cynical viewpoints why bother having forums or logging on to them in the first place?

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

If every member of any caravan forum on the internet adopted the same cynical viewpoints as Colin or Scotch Lad why bother having forums or logging on to them in the first place?

[/quote]

do you know parksy I have asked myself the same question from time to time but been unable to get a satisfactory answer??? I suppose its like a old coat you do not know why you ware it anymore but you keep putting it on anyway.

up to a couple of months ago it was all moans and groans price of fuel, cost of roadtax, holes in the road, ever increasing price of sites. now all of a sudden nothing nien all is quiet why?? has all the prices gone down and I have not noticed or has the change of goverment left nothing to complain about YET. forums are about people who despite all the differences between them share one common interest only. boring of course they are but like the old coat we still keep logging in.
colin

 

[andy72]

heres a thought.

as a newbie, i obviously have lots of questions. Now by the theme thats going on in this thread, first i should use a search button. Ok, done that, found my answer, great. Now what?.....thats right, no point in actually posting anything and i just log off and go looking at something else on another forum. Is that what is wanted by the more expereinced or do you want newbies to become an active and contributing part of a great forum by first going through the 'lots of questions' phase?
What happens if you are a parent of a number of teenage children of varying ages. When they get their first car (the car examples seem popular!), eager to learn and start asking questions about how to check oil etc do you refer them to the manual as you got tired of telling the first child?

I cant beleive one post actually said, its better to push them off the cliff and hope they survive. Does that mean that just because some people 'survived' without the internet that we should just hook up and drive off , in a potentially dangerous set up hoping that we learn from mistakes?

Good debate by the way.

 

[Soozeeg]

Some people prefer to find out things for themselves by doing lots of research, others prefer to ask questions of more experienced people (I do both, belt and braces approach, lol). The point is, we're all different. My view is that, whilst it occasionally can be mildly irritating to have a question come up that was previously asked a mere couple of days ago, I don't actually mind being asked.....if nothing else, it can be quite gratifying being able to help someone and show off your knowledge (provided you do actually know!!! hehe). I personally can't answer any technical stuff, in fact I'm not able to answer most queries really, but on the rare occasion that I can help someone, I'm really pleased to do so. We all had to start somewhere, and we all do things in different ways. So carry on, ask away - I for one don't mind. I do agree with the point about people not coming back to thank you (or not necessarily thank you, but at least provide some feedback) after they've asked a question and someone has gone to the trouble of giving a detailed answer. That's just plain rude (god, I hope I've never done it!! lol).

 

[Guest]

Sorry Parksy but you live in a different world to many of us. It is not cynical to suggest that people try to stand on their own 2 feet and if by implication you are thinking that that would prevent me from assisting anyone, is disappointing. I spent the majority of my working life as a stand alone entity usually miles and miles away from the nearest source of backup, and certainly no computer or even telephone, and had to make it all work or face costs of thousands of dollars per day. I am no genius, just a normal person.
To those that question the necessity of Forums and their ilk, then please think about it. Until quite recently they did not exist and to my knowledge the world still functioned perfectly adequately, and some might suggest, actually better. They are an option, not a necessity and in my again 'cynical' view, wonder if some exist more for the owners gratificiation than anything else. They are a bit like Chip and Pin, it all worked before but because the Banks saw this as a way to increase profit it was rolled out with a lot of hoo ha about security, and of course an adjoining withdrawal of cheques and the local branch counter. Now we have little choice. Just because something is written on the internet gives no guarantee that it is true, any more than that bloke with his dog you met in the pub last night. However it is undoubtedly a very cheap way to get a message across to as wide an audience as possible, but anyone who uses it as their sole means of gaining knowledge is, as exam takers are finding out, likely to be disappointed.
Forums are a social intercourse primarily, and a means of gaining a 2nd opinion as a bonus.

 

[Guest]

By the way, I never suggested pushing anyone off a cliff, Please read the Post. What I stated, which is a fact, is that seabirds. encourage' their grown chicks to make their own life by flying away from nest once they reach a certain age. As I cannot speak the seabird language, I can only conjecture lightheartedly what the parent bird is thinking, but obviously some people cannot see the wood from the trees.

As for driving off without knowledge, I can only state that in 1975, I did just that with my first caravan and went to the Black Forest with 2 kids for the first trip. Had a whale of a time. We tried a shakedown weekend in Montrose but it rained continously so realsied at an early age that caravanning in the Uk was fraught. . However, the CC even in those days gave a lot of advice in their Handbook which I read carefully, I also watched what others were doing and copied some, but ignored others. Yes, I made mistakes but learned far more rapidly from them

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

hi Andy, interesting post but think about this,
"as a newbie, i obviously have lots of questions. Now by the theme thats going on in this thread, first i should use a search button. Ok, done that, found my answer, great. Now what?.....thats right, no point in actually posting anything and i just log off and go looking at something else on another forum. Is that what is wanted by the more expereinced or do you want newbies to become an active and contributing part of a great forum by first going through the 'lots of questions' phase?"
great you have found your answer "now what" answer use the info you have found but why log off or go to another forum its not just about asking and answering questions you know forums are about interacting with other members on a variety of subjects the more you use the forum the more you understand this, some members only post on specific catagories others on general matters and others aviod certain subject like the plague.some members post a lot others very little it is up to you how you use the forum .
What happens if you are a parent of a number of teenage children of varying ages. When they get their first car (the car examples seem popular!), eager to learn and start asking questions about how to check oil etc do you refer them to the manual as you got tired of telling the first child?
as the father of three grown up kids I found that no matter how many times they were told something they did it their own way in the end but kept a hotline to dads taxi/garage and mums supermarket allways in reserve.

I cant beleive one post actually said, its better to push them off the cliff and hope they survive. Does that mean that just because some people 'survived' without the internet that we should just hook up and drive off , in a potentially dangerous set up hoping that we learn from mistakes?
not at all I did not write the comment but what it serves to remind us is the ammount of information allready out there in cyberspace and in books and magazines none of which was available when some of us started out, come to think of it there was not much in the way of towing law either most towing was done through trial and error. and yes we did survive if it is this information that the newbie seeks that is fine but to suggest the only way one can be safe is to ask questions on a forum alone is not true because a lot of answers come in the form of a link to some relevent web page. that could be found by other means ie; GOOGLE ect.
let me put it this way:- a poster "not nessasarly a newbie" askes a question about reversing cameras, he may recieve 12 replies some in the form of a web link. 2weeks later somone askes the same question and gets 6 replies some the same some different possibly even a reply from the first poster, 2 weeks later, same question 2 replies. the quality of the replies to the third poster will obviously be less. however if the third poster had looked through back pages first he would have found 18 replies including a couple of web links and have a greater pool of ideas to choose from then if still unsure ask a different related question it is the best way to use the forum not rocket science just common sense.

colin

 

[Parksy]

Sorry Parksy but you live in a different world to many of us.

I'm beginning to think that you're correct on that score Scotch Lad.

To those that question the necessity of Forums and their ilk, then please think about it. Until quite recently they did not exist and to my knowledge the world still functioned perfectly adequately, and some might suggest, actually better. They are an option, not a necessity and in my again 'cynical' view, wonder if some exist more for the owners gratificiation than anything else. They are a bit like Chip and Pin, it all worked before but because the Banks saw this as a way to increase profit it was rolled out with a lot of hoo ha about security, and of course an adjoining withdrawal of cheques and the local branch counter. Now we have little choice. Just because something is written on the internet gives no guarantee that it is true, any more than that bloke with his dog you met in the pub last night. However it is undoubtedly a very cheap way to get a message across to as wide an audience as possible, but anyone who uses it as their sole means of gaining knowledge is, as exam takers are finding out, likely to be disappointed.
Forums are a social intercourse primarily, and a means of gaining a 2nd opinion as a bonus.

That's true of course but the internet is increasingly replacing the printed word as a source of information. A researcher could read several reference books on any given subject and there is still no guarantee that the information in the book will be 100% accurate.
I also learned about caravanning or to be strictly accurate made most of my mistakes involving caravanning using the 'jump off the cliff and hope for the best' approach of old.
The point is that the communications revolution now allows those who wish to take advantage of it the ability to find out within minutes information and advice that once would have involved spending hours, days or even weeks to discover. This is precisely why internet savvy potential caravan owners or buyers often make forums such as this their first port of call.
One would hope that these same forum users would seek information from other sources rather than relying solely on advice from forums, I learned quite a lot that I didn't know from reading Practical Caravan magazine.
I wonder if there will ever be an online interactive version of the magazine?
Many of us now read our news online as the sharp decline in newspaper sales proves, we can comment 'live' on news items that we read and take part in debates through news message boards.
This forum often acts as an electronic debating chamber, a hub for social intercourse, a consumer led focus group, a potentially powerful lobby but without new members initially using this forum to seek advice whether they looked here first or after extensive research the forum would rapidly wither and die.
This is why in the world that I live in I'm always happy to try to answer questions however trivial they may seem no matter how many times they are repeated.

 

[Guest]

Yes, we live in different worlds however. at the end of the day, it is how one applies oneself in that particular world that matters.
You are right the internet is indeed taking over as a source of information, however it relies on previously published information for most of its resources, so one could argue that without those sources, it has very little to offer. As for speed, I suspect many will tell tales of searching endlessly for what they wish to find and more often than not being led up side paths with commercial interests. Strangle the opportunity to write and receive appropriate reward for that effort, and iniative soon dies. It will also effectively destroy the art of personal communication as one can see with e mail replacing physical discussion face to face even when people are sitting beside each other. It will also exclude a vast population of elderly, who neither wish nor are interested in using it. so their detailed knowledge is lost. We live in a so called global world but with our tacit approval, we are destroying the very foundations of our civilisation. Do not try to tell me people are happier nowadays.
You correctly state that on line newspapers are destroying the printed versions, so the next step will be for a subscription to be imposed ( a la News International) which I guess will be as much if not more than buying the paper version, and of course the printers will be unemployed. You wonder if the PC magazine will ever go online, well I suspect that will only happen when again the subscription is sufficient to replace the selling costs. The alternative will be a version where every article is pre-emptied by an advert etc. In the printed version you can by pass the adverts.
When computers were introduced we were all told these would lead to improved lives and less paperwork. Just ask anyone working in a business if that is true. They now work longer and generate more paper than ever before.

There is also the off feld event of a solar eruption to consider. I gather that one is due any time soon and it is expected to knock out all electronic communication, and the results could be catastrophic. Hopefuly that is all doom mongering but placing all your eggs in one basket that is so vulnerable to outside influences, is to my mind very shortsighted.

However, this is all digression from the original point and if you feel that quantity rather than quality is a measure of success, then so be it. I do note that on some other similar type Forums that there is usually a selection of articles, or 'stickies' to use the correct parlance that give out a lot of very basic information so this is not continually being requested. You could even offer, with their permission of course, links to the technical pages of both Clubs. I note that the new Forum does offer an Advice section which is a welcome start, although the sections offered are still at a limted level. Include this as a Forum subsection on the index page as it is not abundantly clear, unless you look.

 

[Parksy]

You are missing some important points Scotch Lad.
It's true that previously published information forms the basis of that which is electronically available but the internet allows the instantaneous exchange of information in addition to the exchange of opinion which sets it apart from old style printed information which relies on it being continually re printed for it ever to be near to being up to date. Printed information is a one way street, the reader has little choice other than to meekly accept the viewpoint of the writer with no real opportunity to challenge opinions or debate issues.
I would say that this electronically assisted exchange and the immediacy which allows up to date information and ideas to be disseminated worldwide is the main thing that the internet has to offer. To argue that the internet has little to offer is to my mind akin to being a technological Luddite :0)
You seem suspicious of 'commercial interest' but commerce has a part to play in funding reliable sources of information whether online or more than a century ago when Andrew Carnegie funded public libraries.
I don't believe that the computer age has caused any decline in working practices or living standards, I seriously doubt if a 21st century clerk works longer or harder than the real life counterpart of Dicken's Bob Cratchett would have done even though the 21st century Cratchett would undoubtedly be more productive, have a much higher standard of living and a longer life. Many regular internet users in the UK are so called Silver Surfers, the wests baby boom generation has continually driven change and has proved time and time again that it can adapt so I wouldn't think that civilisation is being harmed by the rise of internet usage.
Solar Flares?
We had the doomesday scenario at the turn of the century when airliners were supposed to fall out of the sky when the clocks struck twelve. A thermo nuclear explosion would most definitely knock out most domestic electronic devices but I suspect that if this happened answering our emails would be the least of our worries.

This particular forum since it's upgrade may be said to be almost back to square one in terms of usage but all things being equal it will more than regain any lost ground soon enough.
The development of this website is ongoing, it is at an early stage but it will now keep pace with the rest of the electronic community so hopefully improvements will continue to be made to it.
The key to the success of any forum will always be it's members no matter what and if encouraging new members to continue to use this forum involves me repeating tips or advice then yes, quantity is the contributory factor that should eventually lead to quality.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

It will also effectively destroy the art of personal communication as one can see with e mail replacing physical discussion face to face even when people are sitting beside each other.

You correctly state that on line newspapers are destroying the printed versions, so the next step will be for a subscription to be imposed ( a la News International) which I guess will be as much if not more than buying the paper version, and of course the printers will be unemployed. When computers were introduced we were all told these would lead to improved lives and less paperwork. Just ask anyone working in a business if that is true. They now work longer and generate more paper than ever before.

I can see both Parksy and SLs points of view but what SL did miss is how texting is destroying our language. Another point is the affect TV has on how people speak today. Kids who grow up all now talk with an eastend accent dropping their 't's. Now we have bu'er or bi'er instead of butter and bitter. They find it impossible to speak words containing 'th' so now path becomes paff/parf or bath becomes baff/barf. Regional accents are disappearing.
Personally as long as newspapers are printed I will buy them. It not only keeps people in employment in the printing, forestry and paper industries but gets me away from staring at a screen. It's the same with books but sadly most now seem to be printed abroad, namely China.
Saying that doesn't mean I don't seek information online because I do. Infact the web is the best available source of information to all and is instantanious which means one doesn't have to spend thousands on books or wait until the local library is open.
What seems to be the latest nail in the coffin for printers/paper manufacturers is e-book readers. Give me a hard copy any day. If I had another screen to stare at my life wouldn't be worth living. Her Ladyship would give me so much quadrophonic flak it doesn't bear thinking about. She moans as it is that I don't listen to her when I'm in front of the computer and go into auto mode saying yes or no hoping my reply is the correct one :O(

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

hi all.
just put the old coat on again to pass comment? LB wrote""speak words containing 'th' so now path becomes paff/parf or bath becomes baff/barf. Regional accents are disappearing."" but but int that how you posh folk speak anyow should make you feel rate at ome mate.
while I would agree with LB's seniment on the whole, especialy when the kids seem to adopt text speak all the time"very annoying" luv u 2 and all that. I would diverse when it comes to regional accents since the demise of BBC english regional accents are I feel more common (perhaps that is the problem as all get mixed into one) with programs like enders and brookside and even regional series like taggart and whytcliff have a regional twang to them plus all the new presenters and commentators that are seen on the TV not to mention all the USA programs it is easier to understand some of the dialects spoken.

this must be true as I was watching a old episode of rab "c" nesbit the other day and understood every word "struth"

colin