Damian
Moderator
As a caravan owner and motorcycle training instructor I also disagree with tj_4 in certain respects.
Here is what the HC says:
162: Signals and position, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise.
When taking the first exit
* signal left and approach in the left-hand lane
* keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.
When taking any intermediate exit
* select the appropriate lane on approach to and on the roundabout, signalling as necessary
* stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout
* signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.
When taking the last exit or going full circle
* signal right and approach in the right-hand lane
* keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout
* signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.
When there are more than three lanes at the entrance to a roundabout, use the most appropriate lane on approach and through it.
163: In all cases watch out for and give plenty of room to
* pedestrians who may be crossing the approach and exit roads
* traffic crossing in front of you on the roundabout, especially vehicles intending to leave by the next exit
* traffic which may be straddling lanes or positioned incorrectly
* motorcyclists
* cyclists and horse riders who may stay in the left-hand lane and signal right if they intend to continue round the roundabout
* long vehicles (including those towing trailers) which might have to take a different course approaching or on the roundabout because of their length. Watch out for their signals.
In ALL cases the use of signals is of paramount importance, because whilst YOU may know where your going, nobody else does UNLESS you signal your intentions.
In the scenario stated at the beginning of this thread, it is quite obvious that the poster knew he was in the wrong lane, and instead of going off the roundabout and coming back on to it in the correct position for turning to the right, he chose to exit to the right, but from the totally wrong approach lane, hence causing a moving hazard to ALL other road users.
Here is what the HC says:
162: Signals and position, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise.
When taking the first exit
* signal left and approach in the left-hand lane
* keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.
When taking any intermediate exit
* select the appropriate lane on approach to and on the roundabout, signalling as necessary
* stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout
* signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.
When taking the last exit or going full circle
* signal right and approach in the right-hand lane
* keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout
* signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.
When there are more than three lanes at the entrance to a roundabout, use the most appropriate lane on approach and through it.
163: In all cases watch out for and give plenty of room to
* pedestrians who may be crossing the approach and exit roads
* traffic crossing in front of you on the roundabout, especially vehicles intending to leave by the next exit
* traffic which may be straddling lanes or positioned incorrectly
* motorcyclists
* cyclists and horse riders who may stay in the left-hand lane and signal right if they intend to continue round the roundabout
* long vehicles (including those towing trailers) which might have to take a different course approaching or on the roundabout because of their length. Watch out for their signals.
In ALL cases the use of signals is of paramount importance, because whilst YOU may know where your going, nobody else does UNLESS you signal your intentions.
In the scenario stated at the beginning of this thread, it is quite obvious that the poster knew he was in the wrong lane, and instead of going off the roundabout and coming back on to it in the correct position for turning to the right, he chose to exit to the right, but from the totally wrong approach lane, hence causing a moving hazard to ALL other road users.
Twice today ive seen the 'junction idiots' at work.
The 1st sat at a red light in the outside lane decided he wanted to turn left so pulled forwards over the line then backed into the nearside lane till lights turned green.
2nd.. A woman driving a horsebox pulled into the left filter lane at lights and when they turned green used the extra width of the road to do a U turn to the right across other lanes and still oncoming traffic..blocking everybody as she did so
Stupidity rules I recon
The 1st sat at a red light in the outside lane decided he wanted to turn left so pulled forwards over the line then backed into the nearside lane till lights turned green.
2nd.. A woman driving a horsebox pulled into the left filter lane at lights and when they turned green used the extra width of the road to do a U turn to the right across other lanes and still oncoming traffic..blocking everybody as she did so
Stupidity rules I recon
Technically I agree with TJ_4 as the highway code states that one should signal when leaving a roundabout and that the following vehicle should be sufficiently behind you to prevent an accident should an unforseen incident occurr. If the lanes approaching the roundabout were marked with direction arrows you would be totally to blame David. The motor cyclist could be apportioned with blame on the speed he was riding at. Some think that they are in a race and corner at terrific speed with the bike leaning right over. However with the volume of traffic and idiots on the road today common sense must prevail and in this instance take the first exit, turn around when safe to do so and return to the roundabout and take the correct exit.
The idiot fraternity, and this includes HGV, PSV, motorists, caravanners, motor cyclists, cyclists and pedestrians all fall into this catergory, must have their brains somewhere else the way they carry on today and use the addage that it will not happen to me so why should I take care.
The idiot fraternity, and this includes HGV, PSV, motorists, caravanners, motor cyclists, cyclists and pedestrians all fall into this catergory, must have their brains somewhere else the way they carry on today and use the addage that it will not happen to me so why should I take care.
I realy cannot see how you get to blame the biker from the original post
Speed. you only have the posters word the bike was going fast. Define it, 40 in a 60 zone? 30 in a 60 zone? What is fast, where are the facts?
The governmet payed a lot of money on an ad campain about lane disaplin at islands. left lane for left, left or right for straight on and right for right only.
Either way, the illegal move that caused the accident was the caravan owner. not the biker. The insurance company are right.
Speed. you only have the posters word the bike was going fast. Define it, 40 in a 60 zone? 30 in a 60 zone? What is fast, where are the facts?
The governmet payed a lot of money on an ad campain about lane disaplin at islands. left lane for left, left or right for straight on and right for right only.
Either way, the illegal move that caused the accident was the caravan owner. not the biker. The insurance company are right.
Damian
Moderator
tj_4, they are not MY rules, they are the rules as laid down by the Highways agency.
Secondly, I do not know the biker in question, therefore cannot say thatit was his fault or not, which neither can you, for certainty.
Thirdly, the kind of advice I give to riders is to treat EVERYONE else on the road as a potential hazard, as if ti all goes pear shaped, the biker will come off worst, as he or she does not have a metal can surrounding them from impact.
Secondly, I do not know the biker in question, therefore cannot say thatit was his fault or not, which neither can you, for certainty.
Thirdly, the kind of advice I give to riders is to treat EVERYONE else on the road as a potential hazard, as if ti all goes pear shaped, the biker will come off worst, as he or she does not have a metal can surrounding them from impact.
tj_4
you say that turning right from the left hand lane is not an illegal manouver
Well it is, it is a simple case of driving without due care and attention, in this case it is also causing an accident by careless driving as the driver had the option of a safe exit from the island. Either way, the insurance company have the facts and have decided who is to blame. That is not somthing an insurance company does (admit liability) without good reason or even a hope of any kind.
As for the bike, I still cannot work out where it says they where speeding, fast yes, but not speeding. When you ride a bike, progress (appropriate speed for the situation) is somthing you learn for self preservation. This may seem fast for many drivers but may still be well within the speed limit.
Damian is right on his third comment, EVERYONE and EVERYTHING is a hazard to a bike. Even a bike of 250kg+ will always come off worst.
Interesting note of the original post. David is very concerned about blame but no mention of how badly injured anyone was. Cars and bikes are replaceable, the rider or driver are NOT
you say that turning right from the left hand lane is not an illegal manouver
Well it is, it is a simple case of driving without due care and attention, in this case it is also causing an accident by careless driving as the driver had the option of a safe exit from the island. Either way, the insurance company have the facts and have decided who is to blame. That is not somthing an insurance company does (admit liability) without good reason or even a hope of any kind.
As for the bike, I still cannot work out where it says they where speeding, fast yes, but not speeding. When you ride a bike, progress (appropriate speed for the situation) is somthing you learn for self preservation. This may seem fast for many drivers but may still be well within the speed limit.
Damian is right on his third comment, EVERYONE and EVERYTHING is a hazard to a bike. Even a bike of 250kg+ will always come off worst.
Interesting note of the original post. David is very concerned about blame but no mention of how badly injured anyone was. Cars and bikes are replaceable, the rider or driver are NOT
Hi Damian - thanks for your comments they are very helpful. The situation was not helped by the roundabout being quite small, with no lane markings and there was no exit left, only straight on and right. I got caught in slowing traffic leading into the roundabout with no one giving way despite signals - I literally ran out of space and arrived at the roundabout still signalling my intention to go right. I let all traffic clear the roundabout and as some motor cycles were coming through at some speed I followed my lane round giving signals and looking for anything on my inside. As I was moving round, the motor cyclist (who must have come on to the roundabout some time well after me) would have had a good view of the back and sides of my outfit with all indicators in view as he was in the outside lane. Depending on his speed he should have been able to assess the situation and note that I was intending to go round to the right, in other words something was not right. As it was he assumed I was going straight ahead despite the signals
I don't know whether he saw my signals or not, or whether he felt he could overtake me before I made the turn across the road straight ahead, having seen my signals. The impact sent him flying from his machine, but thankfully he was unhurt. I am not seeking to deny liability but feel there was some element in this accident where he could have exercised some caution on what is I gather a notorious accident spot, close to his home town of Trowbridge.
David
Hi Sparkes - Please see reply to Damian. Motorcyclist uninjured thankfully, minor damage only to bike. - David.
In this sittuation David you should have gone straight on and found a suitable place to re route.
As a caravanner I've noticed how feeble some indicators are on vans as well and believe a lot of long vans should have an indicator above the central axle point.
Your sittuation re positioning at the roundabout is one I find can be improved with driving with satnav. Sat nav is not perfect, but mine gives me good warning of turns and tells me the exit to take and shows dual carriageways so I have a visual guide re early positioning choices such as lane position when coming off at motorway exit junctions.
As a caravanner I've noticed how feeble some indicators are on vans as well and believe a lot of long vans should have an indicator above the central axle point.
Your sittuation re positioning at the roundabout is one I find can be improved with driving with satnav. Sat nav is not perfect, but mine gives me good warning of turns and tells me the exit to take and shows dual carriageways so I have a visual guide re early positioning choices such as lane position when coming off at motorway exit junctions.
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