Safety Standards - help need

[Joyce_5063910]

I am trying to find out if the dealers advise purchasers of any BSI standards that the caravans are suppose to be manufactured to and abide by. Also if they mention any NCC standards which the caravans have passed.

If you have time could you look in your handbooks or paperwork and tell me if there is any mention of any standards or did you have any conversation with the dealer about the caravan having passed or being built to certain standards.

I have search the net as much as I can but not many manufacturers put their handbooks and documentation on the net and other than buying all the different makes it is difficult to obtain this information.

Also I could not be party to conversations between dealers and buyers, and I would like to know what they are claiming regards standards for caravans or if they even mention any standards at all.

I only require the information, no personal details and I do not intend to use any personal details only the data, so I am asking for your help please, when you have time.

Thanks Joyce

 

[Val & Frank]

I received the following

Installation and Soundness test Certificate in accordance with BS EN 1949 2002 LPG system

EC Declaration of Conformity

All Submersible Pumps 12v and 24v models Standard BS EN 292 PT1 & PT2 Safety of M 1991achinery.

Touring and Motor Caravan Certificate BS 7671 2001 (IEE Wiring Regulations )

Hope that helps

Val & Frank

 

[RogerL]

Most, but not all, caravans built in the UK are built to NCC standards which encompasses EN1645 which is the European standard for touring caravans.

Imported caravans are built to EN1645 but few are NCC approved, primarily because NCC approval requires the door on the UK nearside.

 

[JeremyClarksson]

I believe all the Explorer group handbooks are available from their website but can not remember if they give the info you require.

 

[ProfJohnL]

All gas and electrical appliances must be manufactured and supplied under a CE approval, which call for adherance to relevant national standards - in the UK that means the BS EN ISO standards

 

[RayS]

Some european made vans conform to the european standards but not the UK standards, particularly in regard to the mains electric installations and fittings. My experience with several deals is that they have a poor to none-existant knowledge of what the standards actually cover, and this includes their own registration to BS 5750 ISO 9000 for quality assurance.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Ray S

BS5750 is an obsolete standard. It was replaced in 1996 with BS EN ISO 9000:1996, and updated in 2000 to BS EN ISO 9000:2000.

If they don't, qoute it correctly they have certainly lost the plot, and I would suspect they have allowed their accreditation to lapse.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Joyce,

I don't think it would be particularly helpful for manufactures to quote all the applicable standards.

Do you want to know;

 

[Joyce_5063910]

Thank you to Frank, Roger, Gary, John and Ray for replying to my quiry.

The two standarsd I am particularliy intested in are BS 6765-4 and BS EN 1645-1 which has already been mentioned.

But I was very intereested in the contents of your replies.

Maybe if you have time and any othermembers have time, you could see whether these particular standarsd get a mention in your documents or during your conversations with the dealers at point of sale.

May I take this opportunity of hoping that you all had a Good Christmas and a Happy and Prosperous New Year to you all, and I hope that you are not all as sad as me by being on the forum on Boxing Day !!!

 

[Lutz]

Hello Joyce,

I'm over in the UK at the moment so these Christmas greetings aren't having to cross the Channel.

I had a look at the details of BS EN 1645 and it seems to be quite comprehensive. Maybe you can pick up a second hand copy from somewhere rather than having to fork out ₤120 for a new one. I don't know whether you've read the short description on the standardsdirect website.

 

[Joyce_5063910]

Hi Lutz

I hope you have had a good Christmas here in the UK, nice to hear from you. Are you celebrating New Year here too ?

Will have a look at the standards direct web site.

The one I am really interested in is the other one the BS 6765. I have a copy of this but wish to know whether the manufacturers are actually claiming to following its contents or not.

Happy New Year to you where ever you celebrate it. Joyce

 

[Lutz]

If I were you, I'd write to the Explorer and Swift Groups as key players and ask them for a statement.

ps: Yes, I'll see the New Year in here, too.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hi Lutz

I hope you have had a good Christmas here in the UK, nice to hear from you. Are you celebrating New Year here too ?

Will have a look at the standards direct web site.

The one I am really interested in is the other one the BS 6765. I have a copy of this but wish to know whether the manufacturers are actually claiming to following its contents or not.

Happy New Year to you where ever you celebrate it. Joyce

Hello Joyce,

It is my experience that copies of the standards are not published on the WWW.

If you find asite where they are published i would be very interested to use it. Please will you let us know.

 

[Joyce_5063910]

Hi Roger and John

From your replies you appear to be very knowledgeable about the standards and the NCC.

Maybe you could advise me if the standards BS EN 1645-1 and BS 6765-4 are within the NCC code of practice and should be followed by the manufacturers.

Also how do you know about the NCC and do you have accesss to any documentation of theirs?

I do appreciate that there are many standards but these are the two I am most interested in at the present time.

Thanks Joyce

 

[Anthony3]

Joyce, ALL caravans should confirm to the myriad of standards and regulations to which they are sold, but I'm afraid many dealers are not conversant with these and certainly do not do a comprehensive PDI to pick up faults; a persistant criticism of respondants in the CC 'Quality & Reliability' surveys.

In collecting any new caravan from a dealers I would personally check the correct operation of the chassis elements and all the gas and electrical appliances, and the towbar wiring for road lights and caravan 12V services, e.g. frig. and battery charging etc.

There is one additional check I'd do which you will have to ask for, or take your own gauge, and that is to check the delivered noseweight of the caravan.

I know of 2 instances in which the caravan's noseweight exceeded the specificed limit of the chassis maker (100kgs) and as such both were unfit/illegal for sale. Only one customer noticed this at delivery, and so refused to accept the caravan and he got all his deposit back.

Being the 'trustworthy folks?' they were I expect they sold it on to a less fastidious customer!!

So take care out there. Forewarned is forearmed.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Joyce,

I used to work for a major OEM supplier of accessories to the caravan industry, and through that work I became quite conversant with standards relating to Gas, Electrical, electronic, and mechanical equipment supplied for caravans. This also meant that I was familiar with certain aspects of the standards relating to caravan construction where our products interrelated. Now retired from that work I can no longer have access to the extensive library of standards the company held, so I cannot quote chapter and verse, but I still have a good understanding of the intent and application of the standards.

I do not have an intimate knowledge of the machinations of the NCC, suffice to say it is the manufacturers trade organisation, and represented their member's interests on various steering committee's during the development of draft British Standards, and some EN and ISO standards. The NCC do not control manufactures, thus their suggestions are not binding on their members. Whilst the NCC claim to be interested in consumers views and issues, they can only bring moral pressure to bear, they have no real teeth.

The NCC have a web site which might be of some interest to you:

http://www.nationalcaravan.co.uk/home/index.asp
It is not obligatory for a caravan manufacture to be a member of the NCC, and in fact there was talk of a breakaway organisation a few years ago, I do not know if this ever became a reality.

Manufactures are only obliged to conform to standards that are required in statutory regulations.

I am intrigued as to why you are so interested in finding out the answers to your question,?

 

[Joyce_5063910]

Hi John

We have been looking into the health and safety side of caravans and the duty of care to the customer by the manufacturers within a broader activity which is too involved to explain at the moment.

We have discoverd that although bodies such as the NCC claim that all safety requirements are been met and that caravans are bought under their seal of approval, this is not the case.

Because manufacturers do not have to adhere to British Standards they appear to be cherry picking at those where they only wish to follow what suits them.

Even though they are allowed to do this as Standards are not mandatory is does not protect the consumer, who believes their safety and interests are being covered, as most do not realise that these standards do not have to be followed.

This is why we were interested in the standards that dealers and manufacturers were claiming were being followed when selling their caravans.

We have established that they claim to follow BS EN 1645-1 but as we are still trying to establish about BS 6765-4 as it is a very essential standard but does not appear to be followed only possibly cherry picked.

This is not followed possibly because it would cost the manufacturers money to ensure the complete safety of the consumer. Can you or anyone throw any light on this standard?

Thanks Joyce

 

[Joyce_5063910]

Hello Joyce,

I used to work for a major OEM supplier of accessories to the caravan industry, and through that work I became quite conversant with standards relating to Gas, Electrical, electronic, and mechanical equipment supplied for caravans. This also meant that I was familiar with certain aspects of the standards relating to caravan construction where our products interrelated. Now retired from that work I can no longer have access to the extensive library of standards the company held, so I cannot quote chapter and verse, but I still have a good understanding of the intent and application of the standards.

I do not have an intimate knowledge of the machinations of the NCC, suffice to say it is the manufacturers trade organisation, and represented their member's interests on various steering committee's during the development of draft British Standards, and some EN and ISO standards. The NCC do not control manufactures, thus their suggestions are not binding on their members. Whilst the NCC claim to be interested in consumers views and issues, they can only bring moral pressure to bear, they have no real teeth.

The NCC have a web site which might be of some interest to you:

http://www.nationalcaravan.co.uk/home/index.asp
It is not obligatory for a caravan manufacture to be a member of the NCC, and in fact there was talk of a breakaway organisation a few years ago, I do not know if this ever became a reality.

Manufactures are only obliged to conform to standards that are required in statutory regulations.

I am intrigued as to why you are so interested in finding out the answers to your question,?

Hi John

I have just answered your question about why I am so interested in the standards.

At this time I do not wish to elaborate more on the forum but you appear to be very knowledgeable about the standards and so if you wish you could give me a ring and I will explain further what I am doing and you could possibly help me. 01476 860815

Joyce

 

[Lutz]

The very fact that a standard exists, need not necessarily provide any protection to the customer. It is just a reference to agreed standard practice, however good or bad. A typical example is reference to quality standards such as ISO9000 etc. where the standard only covers the documentation process. Although a manufacturer may advertise the fact that he has been ISO9000 certified, this does not automatically imply that the quality of his products is any good. He can still produce absolute rubbish so long as the documentation of his quality control process is according to the standards laid down. As a tool to judge any degree of customer protection, standards should therefore be treated with some reservation. Only if they are legally binding can one be reasonably certain that the customer is being given any real protection.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Lutz,

It is true that BS5750, and BS EN ISO 9001:1996 tended to make acreditee's "Say what you do and do what you say", this tended to enforce a status quo. But BS EN ISO 9001;2000 has as one of its corner stones - continual improvement, which does not mean change for the sake of change but look for oppertunities for improvement, evaluate them and if it makes sence use them, then review them.

This of course does not gurantee that product will improve, but it does mean that prduct that continually creates non-conformances (Even if they are just customer complaints) will jeopardise the organisations accreditation to the standard.

 

[Lutz]

Yes, but the standard doesn't specify levels of quality, only measures to assure conformance to the defined levels, regardless of how high or low they may be.

For example, if the manufacurer's technical spec says the walls of the caravan are made of cardboard, then the standard will only ensure that the correct quality of cardboard is used, irrespective of whether cardboard was a suitable material in the first place.

 

[Joyce_5063910]

Hi John

Missed asking you this when you posted it above.

But in the sentence.....Manufactures are only obliged to conform to standards that are required in statutory regulations....where do you find a copy of this to know what the statutory regulations are?

Many thanks Joyce

 

[BrianStAlbans]

I have to agree with Lutz on ISO 9000 .Proceedures have to be in place to handle customer complaints in a consistant manner , it doesn't however reduce in anyway the level of complaints.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Joyce,

The statutory regulations I refer to are not specifically 'caravan' regulations but cover certain generic types of activity, such as gas installation, electrical installation and road vehicle construction etc.

It would be considered and aspect of competency for people working within each discipline to have a working knowledge of the relevant standards, or to have access to a library, but it would be unusual for any one person to have detail knowledge of all the regulations covering all disciplines for the construction of a caravan.

The NCC probably has the nearest thing to a list of all relevant regulations for caravans.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Lutz and Brian,

Yes Lutz you are correct in that ISO 9001:2000 dose not specify levels of product quality to be achieved, but one of the important differences between the current 9001:2000 and earlier versions is the required element of Continual Improvement (CI)

Whilst CI does not directly force the improvement of a product, it does by way of its ethos challenge organisations to look at all aspects of its operations to see how it can make its self better, and it has to prove that it is applying CI.

It would be foolish if an accredited organisation did not look at its product quality issues, as it would steadily become less competitive. Equally the failure of a organisation to recognise a significant product failure from customer complaints and to do something about it would almost certainly be reflected in some other aspects of its management processes that would be picked up during accreditation surveillance visits.

One of the difficulties with ISO9001, is that it means very little to the retail customer so organisations that operate close to or with the end user see little benefit in applying for it. - which is a shame because virtually all the companies that I have dealt with have found that the long term benefits of applying 9001 can be substantial.