Swift factory visit 17th April

[ShadySadie]

Posts have been removed according to Parksy. But having read what is left I can't see how Parksy gets some of his points.

As a manufacturer I advertise a product and hand out glossy brochures showing the product at its best.

As a purchaser, products often don't live up to the brochure and the manufacturer's hype. Retailers can be next to useless and manufacturers hide from product issues and hide behind the law at times to avoid the issues.

(Note- Manufacturer. Caravans not mentioned)

Some years ago we bought a new car that proved highly unreliable yet dealers and manufacturer insisted it was a one off. Only public open inter-action with other owners brought the problems to a head and the manufacturer was forced to take the right action.

A few years later we looked at another model from the same manufacturer, three dealers in our area insisted that things had moved on and that the cars were in a different league reliability wise. A search of internet forums soon shed doubt on that.

Parksy's post is valid in one way, attacking a manufacturer saying their products are C⇨ is one thing, asking questions about product issues or the manufacturers motives is another.

Questioning reliability and build issues in public is the only two way trade the public have. No doubt any manufacturer in any industry would love to have its reliability or build quality skeletons kept from public view.

How can consumers get a true picture on quality and reliability issues if they can't be discussed here whilst manufacturers or dealers hide from answering difficult questions that are described as attacks upon them?

Having found one thread Jason referred to. I would like to say that I don't find "niggly" problems in products costing several thousand of pounds acceptable and my other half would probably block the factory gates if he paid out for product that had serious issues that took weeks and months to resolve!

Would it not be rather nice if a manufacturer went back through a forum and addressed any issues that members had with their products in Public?

Explanation as to how they resolved the problems and what strategies they put in place to prevent repeat problems is surely what the paying customers deserves.

 

[ValA.]

Posts have been removed according to Parksy. But having read what is left I can't see how Parksy gets some of his points.

As a manufacturer I advertise a product and hand out glossy brochures showing the product at its best.

As a purchaser, products often don't live up to the brochure and the manufacturer's hype. Retailers can be next to useless and manufacturers hide from product issues and hide behind the law at times to avoid the issues.

(Note- Manufacturer. Caravans not mentioned)

Some years ago we bought a new car that proved highly unreliable yet dealers and manufacturer insisted it was a one off. Only public open inter-action with other owners brought the problems to a head and the manufacturer was forced to take the right action.

A few years later we looked at another model from the same manufacturer, three dealers in our area insisted that things had moved on and that the cars were in a different league reliability wise. A search of internet forums soon shed doubt on that.

Parksy's post is valid in one way, attacking a manufacturer saying their products are C⇨ is one thing, asking questions about product issues or the manufacturers motives is another.

Questioning reliability and build issues in public is the only two way trade the public have. No doubt any manufacturer in any industry would love to have its reliability or build quality skeletons kept from public view.

How can consumers get a true picture on quality and reliability issues if they can't be discussed here whilst manufacturers or dealers hide from answering difficult questions that are described as attacks upon them?

Having found one thread Jason referred to. I would like to say that I don't find "niggly" problems in products costing several thousand of pounds acceptable and my other half would probably block the factory gates if he paid out for product that had serious issues that took weeks and months to resolve!

Would it not be rather nice if a manufacturer went back through a forum and addressed any issues that members had with their products in Public?

Explanation as to how they resolved the problems and what strategies they put in place to prevent repeat problems is surely what the paying customers deserves.

Isn't that just what Swift are doing. I raised a specific issue with them, and they came back with an answer, said what they had put in place to prevent it again, and solved the problem. See the posting on 'Decals'. I know it's a minor issue, but it was solved in exactly the way you're suggesting. I've not seen any posts removed which raised specific issues about a particular manufacturer's products - but have seen some sensible PR in dealing with some of those issues.

 

[ShadySadie]

Val, with Parksy's post and his interpretations I now find it hard to reply with out being charged with a crime by the moderators.

Jason referred to a problem raised in another thread, I believe that the post was from 18th of April and referred to a caravan brand built in recent times.

Decals are one thing, to dismiss being able to bring up serious problems raised in that thread another.

There are many issues, do you have to be an internet forum member to get help if you have a problem?

I saw that a poster said that they monitor a number of forums, It would take me or my staff some time to do that, I'm sure the person is very good at their job but I to would have reservations about the employers agenda.

We had a very enjoyable visit to the car manufacturer above after we had sold our problem car some years ago, we have also been entertained by them elsewhere due to my husbands job.

Sorry, but their cars are still mainly C⇨.

That is no reflection on the caravan companies here, but where do unhappy customers turn to when they are fighting large companies for what they paid for. If we are not able to openly debate and comment on product and problems with out being labled as childish or rude it does seem as though we face a closed shop between the site and manufacturers.

For the moderator to say just take it up with your dealer is rather patronising after you may have had the run around for months and had your hard earned liesure time ruined.

Also, had I paid

 

[Parksy]

I don't seem to be getting anywhere with this.

ONE post was deleted. The deleted post was on Swift Factory Visit 17th April.

It was deleted not because it contained criticism of a caravan manufacturer but because it was considered by Moderators to be insulting and inflammatory.

Forum members are able to comment on build quality, problems with caravans and to ask questions. A cursory look around various posts on this forum will confirm this fact.

I've tried at some length to explain to forum members what has happened without actually repeating parts of the ONE deleted post but it would seem that this minute cross examination still continues.

Manufacturers would not deny that there are sometimes quality issues and problems with caravans.

No sane person would imagine that every caravan that leaves a factory is perfect in every way

Caravan manufacturers on this forum along with other forums do sometimes intervene and help owners with 'problem caravans', I have irrefutable evidence of this but there is no LEGAL obligation for them to do so. In the event of a problem the first port of call has to be the dealer who is party to the buyer/ seller contract under the S.O.G.A.

Members can and do post on PC forum and should continue to do so if they wish.

Members who imply that all caravans built on a Friday or some Manufacturers take short cuts and run out of material/ glue should expect these views to be challenged unless they have proof that this is so.

 

[Parksy]

I don't seem to be getting anywhere with this.

ONE post was deleted. The deleted post was on Swift Factory Visit 17th April.

It was deleted not because it contained criticism of a caravan manufacturer but because it was considered by Moderators to be insulting and inflammatory.

Forum members are able to comment on build quality, problems with caravans and to ask questions. A cursory look around various posts on this forum will confirm this fact.

I've tried at some length to explain to forum members what has happened without actually repeating parts of the ONE deleted post but it would seem that this minute cross examination still continues.

Manufacturers would not deny that there are sometimes quality issues and problems with caravans.

No sane person would imagine that every caravan that leaves a factory is perfect in every way

Caravan manufacturers on this forum along with other forums do sometimes intervene and help owners with 'problem caravans', I have irrefutable evidence of this but there is no LEGAL obligation for them to do so. In the event of a problem the first port of call has to be the dealer who is party to the buyer/ seller contract under the S.O.G.A.

Members can and do post on PC forum and should continue to do so if they wish.

Members who imply that all caravans built on a Friday or some Manufacturers take short cuts and run out of material/ glue should expect these views to be challenged unless they have proof that this is so.

Should read 'Members can and do post on PC forum regarding problems, questions, build quality and should continue to do so if they wish

 

[KenWashington]

I'd like to thanks Parksy for his patience in explaining again the reasons for removing one post that has led to so much debate.

As he says, he cannot print the text that was deemed unacceptable, for obvious reasons.

At the end of the day it is down to trust. We 3 moderators have to interpret and implement Haymarket's forum etiquette as it appears on the website. We do so to the best of our ability, and ask that you accept and respect that.

By all means raise an issue if you think there's been an injustice. If we've made a mistake, we'll admit it, but if we defend a decision and explain the reasons behind it, then that should be enough, whether you agree or not.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Parksy and Damian

All that keyboard work, your fingers must be dropping off!

Cutting the chase here I know for a fact no one manufacturer is lilly white.

In regard to your point about SOGA I have advocated many times that Forum Member should choose his dealer very carefully as a Dealer can "make or break" a poorly finished caravan .

Surely Jason and the others are entitled to air their constructive views on the build quality of the various manufacturers involved?

We all purchase Practical Caravan Magazine for its unbiased frank assessments of individual caravan manufacturers products. We enjoy reading the good and bad.

Thus surely this forum is also a vehicle for members to highlight the good and bad rather than the manufacturers constantly hide behind their dealers skirts!

Kath Powell of Swift and Kelly Wattes of Bailey have been helpful and I am sure we all appreciate their contributions. However they and their colleagues will never get to know the poor aspects of their products unless this and other forums are allowed a free hand with constructive criticism, good or bad.

I had some very sharp comments on Aluminium Window Frames and I can tell you Bailey took notice and in fact their MD Nick Howard corresponded with me direct. Also thanks to the intelligent problem solving of Hamer my problem has virtually disappeared. And yes Bailey may think twice about Aluminium window frames or at least make sure their supplier overcomes any potential condensation problem. I say all this myself and in no way do I quote Bailey here.

Swift owners had similar problems but I do not know how Swift handled the issues their end.

Surely the more bad we can tell manufacturers the more good their future caravans will be.

Oh, my fingers.......

Cheers

Alan

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi all

in his statement parksy wrote:-"to speculate that any particular manufacturer is somehow trying to decieve caravan buyers by showing them round their factories and issuing instructions to their workforce to build good quality caravans on that particular day and not on other days".

quite right one cannot without specific inside information, however one can generalise and say that it is common practice to guild the lily on days when visitors are present in fact I would probably go so far as to say universal practice, the reason for this is threefold and quite simple insurance,the H.S.E,and corperate image.

as I said in my post since I left the pit in 84 I have worked in manufacturing ever since and have been involved in hundreds of outside visits and it is allways the same procedure, a week before, it is mentioned at the team brief that visitors are comming the day before instructions are given out as to the visitors route and areas to be visitored these are cleaned and kept spotless any practice that could be deemed hazardous or unsightly are prohibited and all waste removed, a shift manager then goes round immediatly before the visit to double check all is well and ship shape.after the visit. back to normal working practice.

and that is how it goes honestly no rubbish or damages around no wonky windows spragged up with spaces no bits of flying metal ect just the factory shown in the best possible light on the day. my comment was not specific to the makers of caravans however or to swift inparticular just in general terms to highlight that factory visits show things at there best and should be seen as such on face value only.

parksy also wrote:-

Many members have posted on here with questions about quality control but while caravan manufacturers are members of this forum they will be shown at least the level of courtesy and good manners afforded to all forum members.

also quite right providing the manufacturer is not specifically protected from the normal forum knock about that we all suffer from now and again, moderators included pehaps when the new forum engine is online it may be possible it have some sort of manufacturers question time where spefific problems can be asked and answered.

belive me it is hard enough to get through to customer services in the first place let alone get information about your 7 years old out of date out of warranty second hand caravan.

dealers dont allways help either hiding behind the "sold as seen" nothing to do with me attitude, forums are then the only place one can possibly get answers. if your manufacturer is also a forum member all the better but perventing a debate about quality because it might show that manufacurer in a bad light is in my view a non starter.

caravan and equipment manufacurers who post and are members of this or any other forum have like parksy says "to be afforded respect", but like any poster should be also open to opposition and disagreement if other posters do not agree with their statments or position, just like anybody else on the forum who uses it.

colin

 

[Parksy]

Alan wrote:

'Surely Jason and the others are entitled to air their constructive views on the build quality of the various manufacturers involved?

We all purchase Practical Caravan Magazine for its unbiased frank assessments of individual caravan manufacturers products. We enjoy reading the good and bad.

Thus surely this forum is also a vehicle for members to highlight the good and bad rather than the manufacturers constantly hide behind their dealers skirts!'

I'm starting to wonder whether this is some kind of wind up now.

I don't agree that I've prevented anyone from airing their CONSTRUCTIVE views on the build quality of various caravan manufacturers products.

I have certainly disagreed strongly with certain of these views when I believed them to be speculative.

This is not the same as prevention. Posters may care to look at this and other threads and find any post that Ive deleted.

You wont.

As a matter of fact I've never ever deleted a post on this forum in the admittedly short time that I've been Moderating it.(There's a first time for everything though )

I have often warned, asked for good judgement and taken forum members to task.

I've attempted to explain each and every decision that I've made to the poster concerned, sometimes without success as seems to be the case here.

There seems to be a 'Greek Chorus' wailing in the background everytime that there is any Moderating input on P.C. forum.

Jason was not prevented from levelling constructive critcism at anyone.

He was prevented from insulting people.

If you are calling my integrity in to question at least try to learn the actual facts and post on that basis.

 

[Dustydog]

Parksy

So how exciting and informative was the Swift factory visit?

I think that is near where this thread started.

Cheers

Alan

 

[Parksy]

alan

If you're so interested in visits to Swifts factory why don't you go on one and find out like I did last October with other members of Caravan Talk forum?

Perhaps then you'll stop behaving like a troll.

 

[Dustydog]

Parksy said to Alan

"Perhaps then you'll stop behaving like a troll".

Now a Troll in Scandanavian folklore is a fabulous being, especially a giant or dwarf dwelling in a cave.

Is this an insulting and inflammatory comment to a fellow poster?

Cheers

Alan

 

[Parksy]

Parksy said to Alan

"Perhaps then you'll stop behaving like a troll".

Now a Troll in Scandanavian folklore is a fabulous being, especially a giant or dwarf dwelling in a cave.

Is this an insulting and inflammatory comment to a fellow poster?

Cheers

Alan

In internet terminology a troll is one who disrupts a forum and the work of it's Moderators and attempts to sow the seeds of discontent amongst genuine forum members.

The short answer to the question posed by Alan is no, it's a comment from a forum Moderator to a forumm member who appears to derive some satisfaction from commenting on an issue in which he has scant regard for the facts and who seems to delight in causing more work for Moderators while trying to get a thread closed down while appearing to champion free speech.

 

[Parksy]

Apologies, I hadn't meant to hide my reply in the comments section so I repeat it here.

In internet terminology a troll is one who disrupts a forum and the work of it's Moderators and attempts to sow the seeds of discontent amongst genuine forum members.

The short answer to the question posed by Alan is no, it's a comment from a forum Moderator to a forumm member who appears to derive some satisfaction from commenting on an issue in which he has scant regard for the facts and who seems to delight in causing more work for Moderators while trying to get a thread closed down while appearing to champion free speech.

 

[Parksy]

hi all

in his statement parksy wrote:-"to speculate that any particular manufacturer is somehow trying to decieve caravan buyers by showing them round their factories and issuing instructions to their workforce to build good quality caravans on that particular day and not on other days".

quite right one cannot without specific inside information, however one can generalise and say that it is common practice to guild the lily on days when visitors are present in fact I would probably go so far as to say universal practice, the reason for this is threefold and quite simple insurance,the H.S.E,and corperate image.

as I said in my post since I left the pit in 84 I have worked in manufacturing ever since and have been involved in hundreds of outside visits and it is allways the same procedure, a week before, it is mentioned at the team brief that visitors are comming the day before instructions are given out as to the visitors route and areas to be visitored these are cleaned and kept spotless any practice that could be deemed hazardous or unsightly are prohibited and all waste removed, a shift manager then goes round immediatly before the visit to double check all is well and ship shape.after the visit. back to normal working practice.

and that is how it goes honestly no rubbish or damages around no wonky windows spragged up with spaces no bits of flying metal ect just the factory shown in the best possible light on the day. my comment was not specific to the makers of caravans however or to swift inparticular just in general terms to highlight that factory visits show things at there best and should be seen as such on face value only.

parksy also wrote:-

Many members have posted on here with questions about quality control but while caravan manufacturers are members of this forum they will be shown at least the level of courtesy and good manners afforded to all forum members.

also quite right providing the manufacturer is not specifically protected from the normal forum knock about that we all suffer from now and again, moderators included pehaps when the new forum engine is online it may be possible it have some sort of manufacturers question time where spefific problems can be asked and answered.

belive me it is hard enough to get through to customer services in the first place let alone get information about your 7 years old out of date out of warranty second hand caravan.

dealers dont allways help either hiding behind the "sold as seen" nothing to do with me attitude, forums are then the only place one can possibly get answers. if your manufacturer is also a forum member all the better but perventing a debate about quality because it might show that manufacurer in a bad light is in my view a non starter.

caravan and equipment manufacurers who post and are members of this or any other forum have like parksy says "to be afforded respect", but like any poster should be also open to opposition and disagreement if other posters do not agree with their statments or position, just like anybody else on the forum who uses it.

colin

I hate to 'nit pick' Colin, but where exactly did I say the words that you quote?

parksy says "to be afforded respect", but like any poster....

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Parksy

If that's what you think I am , then it is a great shame you have to display the adolescent comments on a public forum.

Nil illegitimi carborundum.

Cheers Alan

( My absolute last post on this subject)

 

[Jo-AnneFairway5402010]

i thought we was aloud to post good and bad things about our van etc, dealers, sites or even manu's. thats what a forum is all about isnt it talking about good and bad things about our hobby. what i didnt think was aloud was personal insults.

thats all i have to say on the matter

jo