Tow hitch weight.

[camel]

Prof,
My son who lives over in California in the US and being a big trailer puller with his thirty foot trailer which is more like a hotel bedroom, he spends lots of time up at Lake Tahoe which bores me to tears, I'm sick of going there, brand new he only paid £8000 for his trailer (caravan) take note UK caravan bodgers more for your money over in the US, but being a design engineer and not to much worried about the US nose weight limits, he came up with an App taken from the US truck industry which is used to calculate truck axle weights, the censor he designed is built on to any EU/UK tow bar and gives you the nose weight when you are hitched up to the caravan from your mobile phone, and not a bathroom scale in site, I know that he is in contact with companies in Europe who are very interested, (already patented), when this will come on the market no idea,

 

[VicMallows]

Curiously, this discussion got me thinking along similar lines and I was looking at strain-gauges on Ebay earlier this afternoon. (Also today's topic on R4 was that we must keep our minds active to avoid dementia :cheer: )

 

[Dustydog]

Prof said

You have mentioned the Reich product. This fails to meet the criteria, becasue it raises the tow hitch by about 75mm, so it is not measuring the actual nose load which for accuracy must be done at the towed height. Reich acknowledge this by stating its compensates for it, BUT, as the device has no method of entering the dimensions of the car and caravan, and you cannot know the actual vertical height of the caravans centre of gravity, the compensation it provides is at best a guess and not a proper mathematical calculation.

The problem is even worse where its a twin axle caravan, where the height to nose load change of the hitch is far more aggressive, and depending a number of factors it can be positive or negative

Prof,
I can only reiterate my own experiences which do not echo your statements above
We have been here many times before . I use a Reich gauge , specifically for TAs. Measuring the NL the correct way and then using the Reich only gave me a difference of 1kg. Not a lot in the scheme of things.
I and a number of other caravanners use the Reich and I think I can say with some personal experience it is pretty accurate.
However I must emphasise it is wise if not mandatory to double check your Reich once a year say with the bathroom scales just to confirm the calibration hasn't slipped.
Years ago I had the Milenco spring gauge which imo went off the boil very quickly , nor was it accurate.

 

[Anseo]

On cars having self leveling suspension (I am assuming the car will self level to the same height over a variety of load weights), can I assume that the self leveling system will maintain the same height when the caravan is hitched, irrespective of the nose load.

If that were to be the case then I assume I would measure the towball height after the car has raised itself, and then weigh the caravan on scales.

The car I have in mind, raises the height after the engine has been started and the suspension drops gradually (after a short time) when the engine is turned off.

And can I assume that whatever loads I add or subtract from the car will not affect the NL after my initial distribution of caravan load items to achieve optimal NL.

Sorry for so many questions, but I may as well ask now before putting any of my own assumptions into practice :blink:

 

[ProfJohnL]

Prof,
I can only reiterate my own experiences which do not echo your statements above
We have been here many times before . I use a Reich gauge , specifically for TAs. Measuring the NL the correct way and then using the Reich only gave me a difference of 1kg. Not a lot in the scheme of things.
I and a number of other caravanners use the Reich and I think I can say with some personal experience it is pretty accurate.
However I must emphasise it is wise if not mandatory to double check your Reich once a year say with the bathroom scales just to confirm the calibration hasn't slipped.
Years ago I had the Milenco spring gauge which imo went off the boil very quickly , nor was it accurate.

Hello Dusty,
I may not have put it this way before, but a sample of one is not good evidence for the effectiveness of a device throughout a range of variables. You may just be lucky that for your car and caravan the variance is just 1kg, but that does not prove the product won't have a greater error on other car and caravan combinations.

It is an irrefutable fact that measuring a nose load at any other height than its working height, is not a true indication of the nose load especially for TA's. where for only a small difference in hitch height the actual nose load can vary wildly. What affects that change will be factors including the distance from the hitch to the axle (and then there is the question of which axle or what point between the axles for a TA, The height of the CoG,
the spring rates of the two axles suspension and how they interact with each other. Some of these variables can be quite different from caravan to caravan, so unless you have a means of entering this kind of data into the Reich device, it cannot make an intelligent compensation for the increase in the hitch height it produces. It is at best a guess, and as a consumer you have no realistic method knowing how big that error maybe.

The issue of self levelling suspensions. Yes this can take one of the major variables out of the equation as the ride height of the hitch will always settle within a few mm of a fixed height. Here a pair of bathroom scales with cut to length broom handle will be a very good approach (apart from the danger of hitch slipping off. so supporting the scale on a the foot step, with what could be a fixed height block is a very good solution.

However it must be pointed out that even with levelling suspension, the cars weight specifications must still be observed.

 

[ProfJohnL]

On cars having self leveling suspension (I am assuming the car will self level to the same height over a variety of load weights), can I assume that the self leveling system will maintain the same height when the caravan is hitched, irrespective of the nose load.

If that were to be the case then I assume I would measure the towball height after the car has raised itself, and then weigh the caravan on scales.

The car I have in mind, raises the height after the engine has been started and the suspension drops gradually (after a short time) when the engine is turned off.

And can I assume that whatever loads I add or subtract from the car will not affect the NL after my initial distribution of caravan load items to achieve optimal NL.

Sorry for so many questions, but I may as well ask now before putting any of my own assumptions into practice :blink:

I agree with your reasoning, except that you must not ignore the tow vehicles load limits set in its specifications. There is a chance that becasue the suspension does not sag when additional load is added, it maybe quite possible to inadvertently over load the cars rear suspension.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

every time this topic comes up there is an air of controversy the past attempts have been legendary in the complexity and opposing views. nothing ever really changes.
some would argue that noseweight is a precise procedure while others have a more casual approach. but the fact remains no one should be that preoccupied with it to a point of obsession.
the fact of the matter is no method is perfect. and providing certain criteria at met it should never be a problem to worry about.
why well years ago I did a personal test for my own satisfaction that the method I used would be adequate. I used 4 methods available at the time.
after setting up the van for towing. and using the same hitch height. I lifted the hitch by hand to guess the weight. [yes I know but] I assumed it was around 60kg. so putting it on the hitch weight gauge and taking a reading found it was 55kg. this marked down I then proceeded to measure it with a overhead professional weight scale borrowed from my farmer mate [for sack weighing] reading 57kg. and then finally the old bathroom scales. reading 56kg.
all 4 methods including the most crude one gave a reading within 5kg. the measured ones within 3kg.
I cannot say which one was the most accurate but deduced that at worse even the most crude method was within 5%

this led me to believe that whatever method was used it is unlikely that allowing 10% under the maximum weight would result in the noseweight ever being excessive to the point of being overloaded.
providing the setting parameters are followed there is no reason anyone should get caught out no mater which device they use.
so why is it such a big issue.

 

[ProfJohnL]

....this led me to believe that whatever method was used it is unlikely that allowing 10% under the maximum weight would result in the noseweight ever being excessive to the point of being overloaded.
providing the setting parameters are followed there is no reason anyone should get caught out no mater which device they use.
so why is it such a big issue.

Because

1. the current crop of gauges sold for this specific purpose are not designed to enable users to take a nose load measurement under the conditions need for compliance with the regulations

2. Non of the gauges comes with a calibration certificate confirming their absolute accuracy.Published records show the accuracy of some of these gauges can be as much 30% out.

3. If your going to do the job, its worth doing properly

4. Why spend out money when most people have a more that adequate and probably significantly more accurate alternative already at home.

Most caravanners end to use up virtually all their nose load allowance, which means inaccurate gauges could mislead you into overloading.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

....this led me to believe that whatever method was used it is unlikely that allowing 10% under the maximum weight would result in the noseweight ever being excessive to the point of being overloaded.
providing the setting parameters are followed there is no reason anyone should get caught out no mater which device they use.
so why is it such a big issue.

Because

1. the current crop of gauges sold for this specific purpose are not designed to enable users to take a nose load measurement under the conditions need for compliance with the regulations

2. Non of the gauges comes with a calibration certificate confirming their absolute accuracy.Published records show the accuracy of some of these gauges can be as much 30% out.

3. If your going to do the job, its worth doing properly

4. Why spend out money when most people have a more that adequate and probably significantly more accurate alternative already at home.

Most caravanners end to use up virtually all their nose load allowance, which means inaccurate gauges could mislead you into overloading.

and this is the very reason these threads go on and on and on and on. personal intractability the fact is no method of measuring is ever going to be 100% reliable there are so many factors that change the parameters. there is really no point in insisting one way is correct and every other is wrong.
it is up to the individual to decide which method suits them. as long as their happy with it and leave enough of a margin for error leave them to it.
one can advise new caravanners of the importance on checking the nose load but how they do it is up to them entirely.

I would refer anyone to the saying "there is more than one way to skin a rabbit" there is. and as long as the end result is a skinless rabbit who cares how it got there.

 

[Martin24]

....this led me to believe that whatever method was used it is unlikely that allowing 10% under the maximum weight would result in the noseweight ever being excessive to the point of being overloaded.
providing the setting parameters are followed there is no reason anyone should get caught out no mater which device they use.
so why is it such a big issue.

Because

1. the current crop of gauges sold for this specific purpose are not designed to enable users to take a nose load measurement under the conditions need for compliance with the regulations

2. Non of the gauges comes with a calibration certificate confirming their absolute accuracy.Published records show the accuracy of some of these gauges can be as much 30% out.

3. If your going to do the job, its worth doing properly

4. Why spend out money when most people have a more that adequate and probably significantly more accurate alternative already at home.

Most caravanners end to use up virtually all their nose load allowance, which means inaccurate gauges could mislead you into overloading.

and this is the very reason these threads go on and on and on and on. personal intractability the fact is no method of measuring is ever going to be 100% reliable there are so many factors that change the parameters. there is really no point in insisting one way is correct and every other is wrong.
it is up to the individual to decide which method suits them. as long as their happy with it and leave enough of a margin for error leave them to it.
one can advise new caravanners of the importance on checking the nose load but how they do it is up to them entirely.

I would refer anyone to the saying "there is more than one way to skin a rabbit" there is. and as long as the end result is a skinless rabbit who cares how it got there.

Which leads us very nicely onto whether to have stew or pie? Youngest prefers a pie, personally I like a stew and dumplings. The other three won't touch rabbit let alone let us eat the one in the hutch outside.

 

[KeefySher]

I thought the expression was 'to skin a cat', not rabbit.

Domestic rabbits are a bit stringy compared with wild ones, just remove the lead shot before eating.

I'm not sure if I've actually eaten cat, but probably in some oriental eatery somewhere I've been. The rule as always is don't ask what's in your dinner

 

[colin-yorkshire]

I thought the expression was 'to skin a cat', not rabbit.

It is... but I have to be mindful that some readers may be of a delicate nature and easily offended and also as some of them may be cat lovers and owners. I changed the animal to "rabbit" besides rabbits are more tasty than cats especially when you get one that has been munching on your carrots and coriander for a couple of weeks. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Martin24]

I think Mrs Fox has fed our wild rabbits to her 5 kits. Not seen a rabbit here for months. No pheasants lately either. Actually going to have to go to the butcher unless we just live on pigeon and goose.

 

[KeefySher]

I thought the expression was 'to skin a cat', not rabbit.

It is... but I have to be mindful that some readers may be of a delicate nature and easily offended and also as some of them may be cat lovers and owners. I changed the animal to "rabbit" besides rabbits are more tasty than cats especially when you get one that has been munching on your carrots and coriander for a couple of weeks. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The easily offended, or professional offence takers are poorly educated

I'm not a lover of smelly, lazy cats either

 

[forester08]

Thanks for all the feedback, one thing does seem clear on this is that it could become an obsession to get the most correct method. With this in mind I have also ordered a Reich weight control thingy ……thank you Camel. The main reason being we tow to southern Spain in the autumn and weight is a very important to us so the heavy Milenco nose weight gauge can stay in the UK and we can take the lighter Reich one.

 

[ProfJohnL]

.... the fact is no method of measuring is ever going to be 100% reliable there are so many factors that change the parameters.

I entirely agree with this point. It is indisputable that some ways are better than others, and some ways are totally inappropriate

... there is really no point in insisting one way is correct and every other is wrong.

For accuracy I have never said there is only one way to measure nose load. There are several, but only some are readily available to individual customers. But specifically the point of measuring nose load, is to discover teh nose load. If the method used does not measure the nose load then its is wrong. Nose load can be defined as the static vertical load applied to the coupling point under ready to tow conditions. Anything that varies those conditions means the measurement taken is not the nose load.

...
it is up to the individual to decide which method suits them.

Again I agree

...as long as their happy with it and leave enough of a margin for error leave them to it.

The problem here is how do they know their margin of error if they cannot measure the true nose load?

...one can advise new caravanners of the importance on checking the nose load but how they do it is up to them entirely.

I agree again, but with the proviso that if they are relying on an ineffective method, they do need to advised about it, and apparently need to be convinced why its wrong.

Also I think most people would prefer not waste money on products that don't do the job they are supposed to do, and in the OP's case he seems intent on wasting money, when there is an elegant and far cheaper method with probably a greater degree of accuracy.

 

[forester08]

But heavier? Also I am not an obsessive and there are no pockets in a shroud.

 

[Gafferbill]

Thanks for all the feedback, one thing does seem clear on this is that it could become an obsession to get the most correct method. With this in mind I have also ordered a Reich weight control thingy ……thank you Camel. The main reason being we tow to southern Spain in the autumn and weight is a very important to us so the heavy Milenco nose weight gauge can stay in the UK and we can take the lighter Reich one.

........good on you

I see you are fairly new to the forum.....and if you haven't realised by now mentioning nose weight on this forum will invoke a strong response from some members.

 

[Dustydog]

Thanks for all the feedback, one thing does seem clear on this is that it could become an obsession to get the most correct method. With this in mind I have also ordered a Reich weight control thingy ……thank you Camel. The main reason being we tow to southern Spain in the autumn and weight is a very important to us so the heavy Milenco nose weight gauge can stay in the UK and we can take the lighter Reich one.

........good on you

I see you are fairly new to the forum.....and if you haven't realised by now mentioning nose weight on this forum will invoke a strong response from some members.

Well done Forester
As I said earlier the Reich is a well designed light weight accurate piece of kit which stays on board always.
Don't forget to try it out and immediately compare the reading against your bathroom scales. I doubt very much from my and others experience you will notice much variance. :cheer:

 

[Dodger524]

Thanks for all the feedback, one thing does seem clear on this is that it could become an obsession to get the most correct method. With this in mind I have also ordered a Reich weight control thingy ……thank you Camel. The main reason being we tow to southern Spain in the autumn and weight is a very important to us so the heavy Milenco nose weight gauge can stay in the UK and we can take the lighter Reich one.

........good on you

I see you are fairly new to the forum.....and if you haven't realised by now mentioning nose weight on this forum will invoke a strong response from some members.

Well done Forester
As I said earlier the Reich is a well designed light weight accurate piece of kit which stays on board always.
Don't forget to try it out and immediately compare the reading against your bathroom scales. I doubt very much from my and others experience you will notice much variance. :cheer:

I have one of these but have found it very difficult to balance on it on one leg so that I can compare it's reading to my bathroom scales. What am I doing wrong?

I do use it to weigh my caravan, which can be quite alarming.

 

[forester08]

To be honest one of the reasons I plump to not go with the scales was our scales are glass….don’t ask…so I think I would really be in the dog house if I damaged them, plus the fact they are very heavy.
I will compare the readings I get with the Reich weight gauge to be on the safe side but all I am really concerned about is not over loading the tow bar setup as our tow car (Galaxy 2.2 auto) when loaded with two electric bikes, two dogs, two adults and loads of bits and bobs for a four months stay in Spain hardly notices the van behind it.

Will that bring further criticism from the learned one I wonder?

 

[ProfJohnL]

T
Will that bring further criticism from the learned one I wonder?

The smallest hint that the industry guidance on towing ratios is a"rule"

 

[forester08]

I know and that is why we have a seven seater Galaxy as a tow car; Towing limit 2000.00kg
Gross vehicle weight 2505.00kg and would you believe we even go the weigh bridge to make sure we are not over the legal limit.

 

[Dustydog]

Oh Dear. Even the Bathroom scales failed him

 

[forester08]

Love it!
You are not too far from reality there as this is our first caravan bought last year and when we loaded the van up as we would have the motorhome ( five motorhomes over the last twenty years)and visited the local weigh bridge we had one heck of a shock, way, way over the legal limit for the van. So now I keep saying to the OH you can’t put that in the van it’s too heavy and I get back well we have always carried it before so then I have to remind her that this is a caravan not a motorhome. Actually since changing to a caravan I am starting to wonder how many motorhomes are driving around way over their legal limit.