Are the NCC the same group of monkeys who could not answer questions relating to an annual check on electrics in the caravan? Some of you may remember the very long thread about this and even when approached at their stand at the NEC they avoided the question. I think it was a PIR but relating to electrics and certificates on a caravan. I would not trust any info comming from that lot.
The coeffient of drag of a boxlike object like a caravan will certainly not be less than 0.8. That of an aircraft wing is around 0.05. So how the two can be compared is beyond me.
The exposed frontal area of a caravan (because part is within the slipstream of the towcar) must be somewhere around 4 square meters. That presents a formidable barrier to the flow of air from the front. Just try holding a piece of wooden fencing of that size upright against the direction of travel at 60mph! That force is acting well above the axle which is the caravan's natural pivot point and pushing hard back. This rearward force high above the axle translates into a force vertically upward on the towball, ie. noseweight is reduced at speed. In other words, lift is generated only because the front of the caravan is being pushed back.
The fact that 98% (I'd like to know where you got that number from) of the caravanning community apparently advises against a nose up attitude is, as far as I see it, blind adoption of an unfounded recommendation published a long time ago and which has been carried over so many times that no-one has ever cared to question whether it is valid or not.
While not wishing to discredit the NTTA, the NCC, or caravan clubs, I would hardly call them 'major institutions' of scientific standing.
The exposed frontal area of a caravan (because part is within the slipstream of the towcar) must be somewhere around 4 square meters. That presents a formidable barrier to the flow of air from the front. Just try holding a piece of wooden fencing of that size upright against the direction of travel at 60mph! That force is acting well above the axle which is the caravan's natural pivot point and pushing hard back. This rearward force high above the axle translates into a force vertically upward on the towball, ie. noseweight is reduced at speed. In other words, lift is generated only because the front of the caravan is being pushed back.
The fact that 98% (I'd like to know where you got that number from) of the caravanning community apparently advises against a nose up attitude is, as far as I see it, blind adoption of an unfounded recommendation published a long time ago and which has been carried over so many times that no-one has ever cared to question whether it is valid or not.
While not wishing to discredit the NTTA, the NCC, or caravan clubs, I would hardly call them 'major institutions' of scientific standing.
where did anybody say they where " major institutions of scientific standing" i just said they where major institutions in the caravan fraternity who happen to have conducted tests.Lutz said:
do you have any scientific evidence to show that air flow only effects the upper area of the caravan ? its just that whenever i have towed in poor weather my van is evenly coated with muck on the front so it must be in the air flow of something !.
That's just the point. I don't believe they have conducted any tests. If only they would provide some sort of qualified evidence one would have the opportunity of assessing the validity of their advice and to judge as to whether it stands up to professional scrutiny. As John says, it's rather like similar advice concerning the 85% weight ratio or the 7% noseweight formula which someone, albeit in good faith, pulled out of a bag years ago but without any conclusive proof and this is being handed down through later generations without anyone asking how those figures were ever arrived at or whether they have any validity, especially under today's conditions. Apart from the University of Bath I know of no institution in the UK that I has come up with any verifiable documentary evidence of their findings relating to dynamic safety of car/caravan combinations.Icemaker said:
The towcar will shield the lower part of the caravan from the headwind to a degree. However, the gap between the car and the caravan creates a partial vacuum which 'sucks' in the muck that you refer to.
Hello Icemaker,
As I have often written, I do not necessarily disagree with the aims of the said bodies, I hope we are all working towards keeping caravanning safe.
What I question is validity and authority of the figures they perpetually tell caravanner's to follow. Their 'wisdom' has assumed proportions greater than the evidence supports, and under those circumstances it is right to try and get them to substantiate their guidance.
Its a measure of the ingrained result of their dogma, that you claim that 98% of caravanner's follow it and consider it to be the holy grail to be ignored on pain of "caravan excommunication".
Incidentally, twice you have claimed that a very specific figure of 98% people think you should tow nose down, I'm intrigued to know where you get your data. Have you engaged Mori to conduct a pole for you?
Partly as a result of the bodies insistence that towing ratio's should be about 85%, how many caravanner's have be duped into buying larger and more expensive cars or smaller caravans than they actually need?
Their position looks increasing untenable as no other EU country has a significantly higher number of caravan related towing incident, and they don't have similar organisations making such restrictive guidance for their caravanner's.
Many caravanning activities seem to be governed by traditions. Times and technology change which must call the traditions to account for themselves. I don't claim they are all bad or wrong, but it is always worth stopping and asking your self "does this actually make sense or could it be done differently and better".
Equally I have no problem with anyone that wants to stick to the guidance, provided their decision has been made with possession of the all the possibilities, and understands the limits they are imposing on themselves.
To answer your jibe about "Lutz and John said its ok", I can only answer for my self. The forums are spaces for discussion, and no one should take what is written as being gospel. Before adopting any advice or suggestion reader should weigh up all pro's and cons and make their own mind up or seek the advice of accountable professionals.
As I have often written, I do not necessarily disagree with the aims of the said bodies, I hope we are all working towards keeping caravanning safe.
What I question is validity and authority of the figures they perpetually tell caravanner's to follow. Their 'wisdom' has assumed proportions greater than the evidence supports, and under those circumstances it is right to try and get them to substantiate their guidance.
Its a measure of the ingrained result of their dogma, that you claim that 98% of caravanner's follow it and consider it to be the holy grail to be ignored on pain of "caravan excommunication".
Incidentally, twice you have claimed that a very specific figure of 98% people think you should tow nose down, I'm intrigued to know where you get your data. Have you engaged Mori to conduct a pole for you?
Partly as a result of the bodies insistence that towing ratio's should be about 85%, how many caravanner's have be duped into buying larger and more expensive cars or smaller caravans than they actually need?
Their position looks increasing untenable as no other EU country has a significantly higher number of caravan related towing incident, and they don't have similar organisations making such restrictive guidance for their caravanner's.
Many caravanning activities seem to be governed by traditions. Times and technology change which must call the traditions to account for themselves. I don't claim they are all bad or wrong, but it is always worth stopping and asking your self "does this actually make sense or could it be done differently and better".
Equally I have no problem with anyone that wants to stick to the guidance, provided their decision has been made with possession of the all the possibilities, and understands the limits they are imposing on themselves.
To answer your jibe about "Lutz and John said its ok", I can only answer for my self. The forums are spaces for discussion, and no one should take what is written as being gospel. Before adopting any advice or suggestion reader should weigh up all pro's and cons and make their own mind up or seek the advice of accountable professionals.
Personally, I would not buy any cheap Korean made car, even if it did claim to be American. They will only last a couple of years then turn to sawdust. Chevrolet my . Daewoo are best at tumble dryers or cheap cd players, not cars.
My problem is I have always bought Volvos, petrol ones. I hate diesel, smells awful, couldn't care less about the economy argument, but Ford and then some Chinese company bought Volvo, which makes them no better than Daewoo Chevrolets.
What is a man to do?
My problem is I have always bought Volvos, petrol ones. I hate diesel, smells awful, couldn't care less about the economy argument, but Ford and then some Chinese company bought Volvo, which makes them no better than Daewoo Chevrolets.
What is a man to do?
Who's claiming to be American? Just because it's called a Chevrolet, that doesn't mean it has any American origins. The last Vauxhall to be designed by Vauxhall was back in the early 80's and the only model built by Vauxhall in the UK are variants of the Astra. With today's globalisation one cannot conclude that a brand name still has any associations with what one remembers from the past.Stuart_374401878 said:
I have a 5 year warranty and MOTs paid for so should I worry, it will probably outlast me being in my 70s.
I know that once again there was a lot of waffling about drag etc, but did you ever resolve the issue that you originally posted about as we are considering the Orlando but not if I will be towing nose high?bopeep said:
The car itself is fine, maybe with the auto it is a bit heavy on the juice, but a good tow car.
As for the tow ball no I have not resolved it, I am in contact with the dealer and he is helpful but as usual the boffins seem to think they know it all, I have sent pictures but I am still awaiting results
As for the tow ball no I have not resolved it, I am in contact with the dealer and he is helpful but as usual the boffins seem to think they know it all, I have sent pictures but I am still awaiting results
I have written to a nationwide supplier of towbars and rasied a query reagridng teh towball height. Hopefully they will respond at soem point. Do you know which contractor fitted the towbar etc?
Hi Surfer
Not sure what contractor as it was taken care of by the dealer, but the manufacture is Westfalia, I am in talks with them now, but I do not hold much hope of a solution,
I have been told to alter the hitch on my caravan but it is store so cannot look at it just now, might have another trip end of next week, take some tools with me.
Not sure what contractor as it was taken care of by the dealer, but the manufacture is Westfalia, I am in talks with them now, but I do not hold much hope of a solution,
I have been told to alter the hitch on my caravan but it is store so cannot look at it just now, might have another trip end of next week, take some tools with me.
If I were you I wouldn't accept such a suggestion and I'd throw it right back at whoever made such an inept remark. The regulations, the link to which I sent you in an earlier post, are quite specific as to how high the towball must be. If it is outside those limits under the conditions described in that text, it does not meet the requirements, full stop. That makes it totally independent of the hitch on the caravan.bopeep said:
Hello Bopeep,
This tale seems to be continuing without anybody actually doing anything constructive.
Lets lay it out again.
You must get the tow ball's working height measured, because this is the crux of the discussion. Until you know its working height you do not know if it complies with the EU directive or not.
Remember the EU stipulates that the nose weight of any trailer must be a minimum of 25Kg and the maximum is the limit set by the towbar manufacture. The tow ball must settle to within the range of 350 to 420mm with any permissible nose load (i.e. 25kg to top limit) and the car in all loaded configurations within its specified limits.
If it does not comply then then the installation is illegal, and who ever fitted it has acted unlawfully, who ever sold it you has taken your money for something that is legally not fit for purpose as defined by the EU regulations, and that is technically fraud.
I suggest you look at this web page, as it give some very useful and well written advice about UK consumer rights and what to do.
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/how-to-complain
It boils down to the fact that it is the person or organisation that took your money to fit the tow bar is legally obliged to remedy the issue. They can't defer the decision or liability for the matter to any one else out side of your contract– except the courts, but hopefully it should not come to that.
Even though your dealer seems to be still talking to you, realistically there has been no constructive action to resolve the matter. Sometimes these people need to be reminded of their statutory duties to the consumer, and a well informed consumer will invariable not be fobbed off by the retail trades common but illegal practice to refer the matter elsewhere. It is the sellers responsibility I cannot say it enough so It is the sellers responsibility, It is the sellers responsibility,
Talk to Trading Standards, and Consumer Direct – ultimately you may need to engage a solicitor.
Don't forget
It is the sellers responsibility!
By the way, It is the sellers responsibility!!!!
This tale seems to be continuing without anybody actually doing anything constructive.
Lets lay it out again.
You must get the tow ball's working height measured, because this is the crux of the discussion. Until you know its working height you do not know if it complies with the EU directive or not.
Remember the EU stipulates that the nose weight of any trailer must be a minimum of 25Kg and the maximum is the limit set by the towbar manufacture. The tow ball must settle to within the range of 350 to 420mm with any permissible nose load (i.e. 25kg to top limit) and the car in all loaded configurations within its specified limits.
If it does not comply then then the installation is illegal, and who ever fitted it has acted unlawfully, who ever sold it you has taken your money for something that is legally not fit for purpose as defined by the EU regulations, and that is technically fraud.
I suggest you look at this web page, as it give some very useful and well written advice about UK consumer rights and what to do.
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/how-to-complain
It boils down to the fact that it is the person or organisation that took your money to fit the tow bar is legally obliged to remedy the issue. They can't defer the decision or liability for the matter to any one else out side of your contract– except the courts, but hopefully it should not come to that.
Even though your dealer seems to be still talking to you, realistically there has been no constructive action to resolve the matter. Sometimes these people need to be reminded of their statutory duties to the consumer, and a well informed consumer will invariable not be fobbed off by the retail trades common but illegal practice to refer the matter elsewhere. It is the sellers responsibility I cannot say it enough so It is the sellers responsibility, It is the sellers responsibility,
Talk to Trading Standards, and Consumer Direct – ultimately you may need to engage a solicitor.
Don't forget
It is the sellers responsibility!
By the way, It is the sellers responsibility!!!!
Thanks for the info Prof what you are saying does make sense, and I could not have expressed myself better than the way you have put it. I will get on to it with a diffent approach after the hoildays.
Thanks
Thanks
I spoke to a fitter who works for a nationwide chain and he stated that although they have only fitted two or three towbars onto the Orlandos, there has not been any problem with height. Maybe the fitter for your vehicle has fitted it incorrectly.
No it is not sorted yet although I am working on it I am in touch with Westfalia in Stafford but am foiled by the holiday.
If I took it to the works and showed them they could see in an instance that it is incorrect and they could fix it. But I am too far away
If I took it to the works and showed them they could see in an instance that it is incorrect and they could fix it. But I am too far away
I have been trying to post for aver a week and it just will not do it, not sure if this post will go.
No the tow ball has not been sorted, it always seem to be a holiday when I try. I am in talks with Westfalia in the UK but do not hold out much hope, If I turned up with the outfit at their door they could see in an instance that it was wrong and sort it, but I live out of the country.
I am always quoted the EC regs and that is it. I was going to use it this week but the weather forcast was bad and even that was wrong. I will have to sort it legally but I am too far away to threaten people.
No the tow ball has not been sorted, it always seem to be a holiday when I try. I am in talks with Westfalia in the UK but do not hold out much hope, If I turned up with the outfit at their door they could see in an instance that it was wrong and sort it, but I live out of the country.
I am always quoted the EC regs and that is it. I was going to use it this week but the weather forcast was bad and even that was wrong. I will have to sort it legally but I am too far away to threaten people.
If you aren't able to take the car to the Westfalia headquarters in Stafford then I would suggest taking some photographs with a tape measure next to the towbar so that one can clearly see how high the towball is off the ground and sending the photograph to Westfalia with a request for them to comment.
I have done that, in fact I sent a photo after I had propped up the back wheels to make the measurement greater and still all I get is conforms to EC regulations. My heads sore after banging it against the wall I have also sent a photo again doctored slightly after I was hitched up and still I get the same message.
I am hopeful that this time I might get somewhere. If not then it must be legal
I am hopeful that this time I might get somewhere. If not then it must be legal
If you like, you can send me the photographs and all the written correspondence between yourself and Westfalia, preferably by email, and I would take the matter up with them.
Further to the high towball. I have just been away, because it is storage I carry all my goods in the car and load it at the storage. This time as we were not going far we left everything in the car and just hooked up the empty caravan, and boy did we have some weight in the car we virtuly as we were going just twenty minutes down the road emptied the house and chucked it into the car taking far more than if we had planned a trip.
On hooking up we measured the hight of the tow ball and it came within the parameters of the standard measurements. I said to my wife we now do not have a leg to stand on with a claim, it is not how we normally travel and our next trip will be normal, but the caravan looked almost level. Certainly if the boffins got hold of it they would say conforms to the EU regs.
By the way have heard no more from Westfalia, so much for promises.
On hooking up we measured the hight of the tow ball and it came within the parameters of the standard measurements. I said to my wife we now do not have a leg to stand on with a claim, it is not how we normally travel and our next trip will be normal, but the caravan looked almost level. Certainly if the boffins got hold of it they would say conforms to the EU regs.
By the way have heard no more from Westfalia, so much for promises.
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