towcar caravan query

[Graham_374374066]

Hi,

would like to buy a van but hope to keep the family car as I have had it since new/serviced it myself etc etc. (Opel Zafira 2.0 Dti 2001) Kerb weight is some 1550 Kg but the manual says max tow weight is 1050Kg. Why is that? This severely limits what I can buy - although it will only be self and shmbo we quite like the Lunar clubman SE but this is greater than 1050Kg Have read several website reports on towing performance of the car for much larger vans - still below the 85% mark tho which don't highlight any problems. (Some years ago I hired a van and towed it down thru France and back with no problems and never gave the weight a thought)

puzzled newcomer

 

[RogerL]

Caravanners have been asking about this since the Zafira-A diesel was introduced because it's towing limit is much lower than all the other Zafiras including the Zafira-B diesel. Manufacturers test many different aspects of a car to determine it's towing limit - it's not as simple as it's restart ability on a 12% gradient, although that is one of the tests.

There has been much speculation but the truth is that only Opel engineers know - and they aren't telling. No upgrade is possible without that information.

You have a simple choice - keep your Zafira-A 2.0DTi and find a caravan with MTPLM within the 1050kg limit (not easy, I know) - change your towcar, any other Zafira would be fine if you want to stay with it.

 

[Zafiral]

If you are not filling the car to its max weight, you will have spare weight before you exceed the gross train weight. I think that is the only legally enforseable weight.

you car is designed as a 7 seater so if for example you are only travelling 2 up then you will have plenty spare payload.

 

[Lutz]

As a retired Opel engineer I can confirm that the low towload limit of the old Zafira 2.0 diesel was due to engine cooling issues. For the Opel Zafira 2.0 diesel, a higher (1250kg) limit was offered if one was prepared to tow at no more than 10% gradients and even 1500kg up to 8% max., but Vauxhall never made use of these possibilities.

 

[Graham_374374066]

thanks for your replies.

The car is an Opel Zafira (European Import)

Have been looking at Lunar models today which would enable me to keep pretty close to the 1050 limit. There will only be the two of us so will be well within the max train weight. My thoughts were to keep the weight of car up (top box etc) and the van load down where practicable anyway so would never get near the 85% point. It just seems odd tho. When I look at, say a Mondeo which has a lower weight but much higher tow limit??

I know I could change the car without any great financial penalty but aprt from the hassle I've looked after it since new and it runs like a charm.

 

[Lutz]

Don't forget that the towload limit refers not to the total weight of the caravan but its axle load. As the max. noseweight of the Zafira is 75kg, the max. total permissible weight of the caravan, i.e. its MTPLM, is 1050 + 75 = 1125kg. Maybe that gives you a little more scope.

 

[Graham_374374066]

thanks for that Lutz but I'm not sure I understand about the noseweight + 1050 bit....

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Graham,

I am sure that Lutz will give you an answer if my attempt here falls short of the mark.

As Lutz writes, the maximum towed load refers to the weight on the trailer's axle. This is not the same as the caravan's total weight, because some of the caravan's weight is pushing down on the tow ball, and this part of the weight is not technically 'towed' but is a constituent part of the tow-cars weight. Whilst this difference may not make obvious sense, it is how the regulations work.

You may remember from your school physics, that if a beam is supported at two points, the sum of the force bearing down on each support will be equal to the total weight of the beam. The caravan is like a beam supported by the tow ball and its axle.

So if the maximum 'towed' load is 1050Kg i.e. the weight on the axle, then any load on the tow-ball is in addition to the 1050. this gives rise to 1050 + 75 giving a potential total caravan weight or Mass of 1125Kg

 

[Lutz]

What more can I say? John L has explained it about as well as I can.

 

[Lutz]

Just another short note to perhaps make it clearer from another perspective:

Noseweight defintely contributes to the rear axle load of the car. As gross vehicle weight is defined as the sum of the front and rear axle loads, if you were to then add the full weight of the caravan to establish the gross train weight instead of just its axle load, you would be counting noseweight twice. That's why the towing weight is only the axle load.

 

[Graham_374374066]

Thanks to you both (John L and Lutz); now I understand perfectly.

As you say it gives me more scope - can go and look at the Lunar Quasar to see if it suits us. Not as nice as the clubman but life is about compromise is it not

sorry if this slightly off thread.

Thanks again for your help.

 

[Graham_374374066]

so....

looking at the paperwork with the car and Vin plate

max vehicle weight is 2075 (handbook says I can exceed this by 75 KG if towing) and max train weight is 3175.

The van we are looking at is 1027 MRO (1240 MTPLM)

So if I take off 75 nose weight MRO=952 (MTPLM 1165)

Kerb weight (from the handbook) is 1662 which includes driver and 90%fuel+accesories.

So train weight is 1662 + 1240= 2902 - well within the limit.

And towed weight is (1240-75)/(1662+75) x100=68%

only fly in the ointment is the max towed weight of 1050+75=1125Kg.

Should I or shouldn't I?

 

[RogerL]

If the MAM is 2075 solo / 2150 towing and the GTW is 3175, you can tow an trailer up to 1100kg including it's noseweight but the caravan you want is 1240kg MTPLM.

To be legal you'd have to restrict the actual weight of the car to 1735kg, which means no more than 73kg added above the weight of the driver as the kerbweight is 1662kg.

The towing ratio would be 75% (1240/1662).

If you're a lone caravanner it's just workable but not otherwise.

 

[melanie_374367847]

If the MAM is 2075 solo / 2150 towing and the GTW is 3175, you can tow an trailer up to 1100kg including it's noseweight but the caravan you want is 1240kg MTPLM.

To be legal you'd have to restrict the actual weight of the car to 1735kg, which means no more than 73kg added above the weight of the driver as the kerbweight is 1662kg.

The towing ratio would be 75% (1240/1662).

If you're a lone caravanner it's just workable but not otherwise.

I have been following this post with interest. We too have just bought a Zafira 2.0 dti (1st timers and stupidly only thought of checking kerbweight against mtplm and not the maximum tow weight). We bought an old van mtplm 950. We travel 5 up as have 3 kids. The clutch went on our first outing and my other half is now reluctant to pull the van up any kind of hill. We were planning a lot of touring next year and would like your opinion - should we change cars or not? Other half says the car doens't seem very powerful when towing.

 

[RogerL]

Melanie - at 950 MTPLM you caravan is ok, even with the Zafira's low towing limit in 2.0DTi form.

With maximum power of just 99bhp it'll never have sparkling performance with 5-up and a van on the back.

 

[melanie_374367847]

Thanks Roger

That's what I was wanting to hear. Not really got the money to go changing the car. When I have, I'll certainly do a lot more homework.

Thanks again

Mel

 

[Graham_374374066]

Thanks Roger

That's what I was wanting to hear. Not really got the money to go changing the car. When I have, I'll certainly do a lot more homework.

Thanks again

Mel

thanks for your advice and comments. Interested to read Mels experience.

Think I might try to borrow a van to try - never towed with the Zafira. I have driven it down through France absolutely loaded to the gills though and never thought it lacked power, always loads of torque once the gate on the turbo opens.

Still now I know that I should work with MTPLM not MRO and that train weight is critical weight; Though if van is 1240 then max car weight is surely 3175-1240= 1935 not 1735 which gives me 273kg over the kerb weight (which includes the driver &fuel) or am I being silly?

thanks for your patience

 

[Graham_374374066]

thanks for your advice and comments. Interested to read Mels experience.

Think I might try to borrow a van to try - never towed with the Zafira. I have driven it down through France absolutely loaded to the gills though and never thought it lacked power, always loads of torque once the gate on the turbo opens.

Still now I know that I should work with MTPLM not MRO and that train weight is critical weight; Though if van is 1240 then max car weight is surely 3175-1240= 1935 not 1735 which gives me 273kg over the kerb weight (which includes the driver &fuel) or am I being silly?

thanks for your patience

 

[Lutz]

Even if you restrict the weight of the car you will still not be able to tow more than 1050kg. That limit is also absolute and cannot be exceeded by trading off against a lower weight of the car in order to keep within the gross train weight limit.

I think you'll find that the 1050kg applies to cars with air conditioning and 1100kg to cars without.

 

[Zafiral]

Lutz

My understanding is that the only legally enforceable weights are the ones on the car's weight plate (also on newer V5 documents). The tow weight (to my knowledge) is only a guide as in Renaults you cannot tow the full tow weight if the car is laden. 1050kg (on my Mother in Law's 04 Zafira 2.0 DTi a/c) is the difference between the gross vehicle weight and the gross train weight.

When I had my Renault, I confirmed with Renault Customer Services that the tow weight was only advisory and as long as you did not exceed the gross train weight then you were breaking no law and my warranty would not be invalidated.

 

[RogerL]

The Maximimum Authorised Mass and Gross Train Weight are plated maximums which it's an offence to exceed.

The Towing Weight isn't recorded on the vehicle so exceeding it can't be an offence as long as MAM and GTW haven't been exceeded.

Exceeding the towing weight will of course invalidate the original manufacturers warranty but that's irrelevant on an older ca.

 

[Lutz]

Exceeding the max. towload may not be an offence as such, but it could also affect insurance coverage, not only the manufacturer's warranty.

 

[Zafiral]

I cannot see that an insurance company can argue the point. If you are within the legal plated weights then you are doing nothing wrong. The only chance they would have is if there is a written clause in your insurance policy that specifically states you are not covered under specific defined circumstances.

 

[Lutz]

Knowing what insurances are capable of in finding loopholes not to have to pay in case of a claim, I would think that exceeding technical limits specified by the manufacturer is easy prey.

 

[Zafiral]

Unless the MIRO is higher than the tow weight, it will be difficult for the Insurance co to complain as by the time an assessor turns up it will be well after the event. The car handbook is not a legal document, no legal document carries any specific tow weight apart from the Gross weight and the Gross train weight