towcar with space for 2 great danes

[manwithabeard]

I have a swift conquerer 540 2008 with a max weight 1600kg. I curently tow with a 2009 Volvo v70 2ltr diesil.
As a newcomer to caravaning i did not think ahead to what to tow with in future and not realising the 85% rule. I have to change the Volvo in june 2012 and am finding it hard to get an estate car heavy enough. Fords mondeo/ Smax and galaxy are all lighter than my caravan. Although i am impressed with the Seat Alhambra i would prefer an estate car.
i have looked at Nissans X trail which is about the same weight as my van but specs say it will pull 2200kg.
any ideas.
I am an experienced driver of 40years and have been an HGV driver.
Steve

 

[Lutz]

You have obviously gained experience with towing behind your Volvo V70 and if you have felt comfortable with it, why not replace it with the same again, but perhaps with a more powerful engine? The 85% is only a guideline to give a newcomer something to go by for starters, but if haven't experienced any problems with an outfit that exceeds that weight ratio, there seems little point in a change so long as it's still within the maximum permissible towload that the car manufacturer specifies.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Steve

I would have thought that as an HGV driver you would understand how to interpret the towing regulations, and by that token understand that 85% is not a rule and has no legal relevance. The reliable source for limiting towing weight is the car manufacture and the road and licence regulations.

There are plenty of decent sized cars that are rated for towing 1600Kg many of them are available in estate versions, though finding those with a substantial weight margin over your caravan will be limited.

I appreciate your wish to have an estate, but the Galaxy/Sharan/Alhambra range provide an far more practical and surprisingly comfortable solution. If you are looking for more power then the Kia Sedona, Chrysler Voyager, and Renault Espace are available with big oil burners, yet compared to most 4x4s they ride better, and have better fuel economy but maintain the high vision lines.

But for conventional estates, consider Mercedes Benz, Saab, Audi, VW, even BMW. Older cars of note are the Vauxhall/Opal Omega and of course Volvo's.

The Ford Mondeo has earned a very good reputation as a towcar, so I think it deserves consideration

 

[Martin24]

When I had big dowgs I had the espace and the omega. The omega was the better bet for towing though I think if I'd had the suspension beefed up a bit on the espace it would of been better. I now have 4x4's but at the time both offered excellent space and comfort and were much more economical than what I have now and indeed the 110 I've just ordered!!

 

[JonnyRockstar]

The kerbweight for most S-max's is 1800kg - so well within the weight of your caravan. Where did you get these figures from ? My old Mk3 Mondeo hatch weighed in at 1650kgs.
The 85% is only a guidance by the various organisations and publications and has no legal standing. IMO it should be scrapped !!

 

[DeliDave_]

We have 04 Galaxy which pulls like a dream with 1500kg,tow limit 2000.Have seen loads of this range pulling twin axles,diesel gives over 40 solo,25/30 towing.Seats come out easily ,saw Voyager rear seat which looks like a setee and needs two people to lift.Have been very pleased with running and maintenance costs(so far)

 

[JohnGriffiths]

Latest X-Trails actually come out around 1750 by usual definitions of kerbweight so is a valid option plus you won't have any problems with pulling power. The other suggestions of Galaxy and Smax are good also, especially considering the dogs. I think they would be happier with enough room to stand and turn around on a long journey, which wouldn't be possible in a normal estate car.

 

[manwithabeard]

Thanks for the replies.
I get my car through Motability who have some great deals, hence the volvo which had half the advanced payment than a 1.6 zetec focus when i changed last time. Thats why i probebly won't get another volvo. You have to see what offers are available when changing. An MPV does seem the best way to go. A check on the Ford website shows the S-Max at 1670kg and the galaxy at 1730kg not as a previous post said. I am aware that the "85% rule" is not law but my current V70's kerbweight is 1835kg but max towing limet is 1600kg the same as the caravan. Thats due to the 140bhp diesel engine, but in the 6 times i have taken out the van i have had no problems at all and that works out at about 87% match.
Anyway, again thanks guys.
PS are the DSG type gearboxs better than the manual for towing. I have read that there is a problem when slowing for a roundabout etc.and the gearbox has a problen desiding which gear to pick causing a nasty jerk forward?

 

[JonnyRockstar]

Thanks for the replies.
I get my car through Motability who have some great deals, hence the volvo which had half the advanced payment than a 1.6 zetec focus when i changed last time. Thats why i probebly won't get another volvo. You have to see what offers are available when changing. An MPV does seem the best way to go. A check on the Ford website shows the S-Max at 1670kg and the galaxy at 1730kg not as a previous post said. I am aware that the "85% rule" is not law but my current V70's kerbweight is 1835kg but max towing limet is 1600kg the same as the caravan. Thats due to the 140bhp diesel engine, but in the 6 times i have taken out the van i have had no problems at all and that works out at about 87% match.
Anyway, again thanks guys.
PS are the DSG type gearboxs better than the manual for towing. I have read that there is a problem when slowing for a roundabout etc.and the gearbox has a problen desiding which gear to pick causing a nasty jerk forward?

Aplogies - should have said the old shape S-max has a kerbweight of 1802 kg. They did loose weight when they were facelifted !!

 

[Lutz]

Any published kerbweight should be taken as a guideline only. Kerbweights are specific to each and every vehicle and a range of over 150kg between the lightest and the heaviest version of the same model, depending on options and equipment, must be expected.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello again Martin,

It may seem I'm beeing pedantic, but I am passionately against calling 85% a "RULE" it is not, it is only a reccomendation. The use of the word rule has given the value an appearance of authority and implies to many people a gurantee of safety.

Your own posts show that you are using the figure as a dogmatic target without considering the broader issues, simply adhering to 85% does not guarantee any safety margin or quality of tow. I fully support the primcipal of keeping the trailer weight as small as possible, but simply applying a committee derived figure (which incidentally no one has been abke to show the engineering or technical basis of 85%) can give a false sense of safety and security.
Weight ratios must have some impact on the quality of a tow, but there are many other factors that are equaly or possibly more important. I personally beleive that driver habits are probably the most important.
The other point to consider is the car manufacture actually does controlled testing to establish the largest weight of trailer any car can tow, Surely test based figures must carry more significance than a committees best guess figure. No other EU country has a similar recommendation, so why here?

 

[Lutz]

No other EU country has a similar recommendation, so why here?

Not quite, Prof. It is true that there is no 85% recommendation in any other country, but in Germany there is a legal weight ratio limit if you wish to tow at 100km/h. It is 30% if no shock absobers are fitted to the trailer, 80% for caravans not fitted with stabiliser, 100% for caravans fitted with stabiliser and 120% for trailers other than caravans.

 

[Surfer]

We had a Ford Mondeo 2.0L diesel auto and it towed our 1600kg MTPLm caravan with no problem as the car can tow up to 1800kg. the kerbweight is only 1595kg but when you add everything in like passengers and luggage it goes well over the 1600kg.
The biggest problem with the Mondeo is the auto gearbox which is totally rubbish. It does not change when it should and will let you glide in neutral though intersections etc du to the delay in changing. Eventually Ford admitted that it was a trait in the car and we got a full refund plus the cost of the towbar that was fitted.
Get a manual gearbox and you will be okay as it does the job magnificently.

 

[xtrailman]

i do find it strange prof that you are passionately against towing with a good ratio.

What is the advantage of towing a heavy caravan with a light car??

i actually think the recommendation should be reduced to 75%
Just so you can blow a fuse.

 

[Lutz]

i do find it strange prof that you are passionately against towing with a good ratio.

I don't think anyone is against a 'good' ratio in principle, but it is only one of many factors which determine stability and should therefore not be overrated.

What is the advantage of towing a heavy caravan with a light car??

Well it does give you a bigger selection of caravans to choose from for a given towcar.

i actually think the recommendation should be reduced to 75%

Is there any substantiated evidence that would suggest 85% is too high? I suspect not as 85% is pretty arbitrary anyway.
On the other hand I could be provocative and ask why stop at 75%? Why not 70% or 65%?
What criterion are you applying to establish when a 'good' weight ratio becomes a 'bad' one?
In view of the fact that there are plenty of owners who feel quite at ease towing at close to 100% one could argue that there must be something seriously wrong with your outfit if you need to go down to 75% to make it adequately stable.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Ray,

If you read my comments regarding towing ratio's you will see that contrary to your comment
"i do find it strange prof that you are passionately against towing with a good ratio"
I am at pains to point out that I agree with the principal of keeping trailer masses small.

I am passionately against the principal of quoting a fixed figure as a recommendation for several reasons :-

Firstly the way the use of the recommended figure of 85% has been so misused that it is now better known as a rule, rather than a guideline. It was so frequently quoted that it became a doctrine without a sound basis, why 85%, and not 75% or 90% or even 100%

Given its rise to predominance its now treated with such reverence that some people will work incredibly hard to achieve this 'magical' figure, and disregard the other and probably more important aspects of towing, including speed limits, loading and driving habits.

It is a fact that so far no one from any of the bodies that colluded to contrive this figure has been prepared or able to present any evidence that specifically supports the choice of 85%.

There is also plenty of doubt that the use of the 85% figure actually represents any significant safety margin as there must be many RTI's where the recommended ratio was adhered to, but still
instability has been a contributing factor.

In all of this so far no-one has considered the factual and evidence based information the car manufacturers produce for each model, Why is such factual information ignored in favour of blind dogmatism?

Rather than asking why I am against the 85% figure, ask why and how 85% was chosen.

 

[RogerL]

John - so exactly what official ADVICE should be given to newcomers to CARAVANNING - you seem to advocate the abolition of all guidelines and simply use the vehicle's towing limit even if it exceeds 100% by a large margin.

 

[JohnGriffiths]

I think Roger makes a good point. Many people do not like complexity so what simple advice can we give to newcomers. Information on how to load caravans tends to be diagrams with shaded areas, but is open to interpretation. Is a frying pan a medium or lightweight item. How many pairs of pants can you put in an overhead locker before they become a significant weight? Is this offset by the spare tyre you have under the bed? Who knows? The only thing you can measure is the noseweight but it doesn't tell the full story.
And just how do you quantify "driving habits" or decide which are good and bad, you probably need a huge amount of research followed by a book or college course. These things cannot be expressed in a sentence whereas keeping the caravan weight below 85% of the kerbweight can. Maybe there is work to be done about the actual figure but hardly anyone suggests it is on the dangerous side (except one of the posters who I think has a bit of tongue in cheek.) You must agree that given (as far as is practically possible) similarly loaded vans, similar driving techniques and the same speed that a lower weight ratio is less likely to snake.

 

[DomDom]

Quite an emotive subject for sure but John is 100% correct here. The "85% RULE" is (and only ever has been) a guideline. Quite who came up with that figure is a moot point since the facts are that the only legal considerations are the car's towing capacity and it's noseweight capacity, ignoring the new fangled B+E licencing fiasco.
However, it is blatantly obvious that for the trailer/caravan, lighter is better, and for the towcar, heavier is better. This is from a safety perspective only (which seems to be why so many quote the 85% rule as being the gospel) and takes no account of other considerations like fuel economy etc.
However, my Range Rover can tow 3500 kilos despite only weighing 2600 kilos itself (ONLY, haha). OK, there aren't too many 3500KG caravans but I do tow livestock trailers with cattle inside, i.e. High and heavy. How can this be safe??? Simple enough, I don't tow that trailer at 60mph. 40-50 is the max since livestock can move around and throw balance all over the place.
So the best advice anyone could give to a newcomer???? Get some proper towing lessons. Abide by the rules. Stay within weight limits which means loading the 'van properly. Don't speed. Drive within your own limits, and most importantly, HAVE FUN. Isn't that what caravanning is supposed to be about anyway??
The bottom line is very simply this. If the car handbook says it's legal, then it's legal, regardless of the hysteria surrounding the 85% "rule".
Dom

 

[Lutz]

I'm with those that say the lighter the caravan and the heavier the car the better, but to bring in a breakpoint of 85%, suggesting everything over is asking for trouble and everything under is, by definition, safe, is absurd. No-one has ever come up with any data suporting 85% as a realistic figure, applicable for all combinations. It is absolutely arbitrary and could just as well have been 80% or 90%.
Like I've mentioned elsewhere, to be able to tow at 100km/h in Germany the weight ratio legal limit for oufits where the caravan is not fitted with hydraulic shock absorbers is only 30%, but this limit increases to 80%, 100%, 110% or even as much as 120%, if a series of other conditions are fulfilled. Someone must have put a lot of time and effort in establishing those limits.

 

[RogerL]

So Germany has multiple limits of 30%, 80%, 100%, 110% and 120% - is that 5 different categories of caravan combination? Or are you still bringing other trailer types into the discission - this is a caravan forum.
It's absurd to say that 85% has no basis and then not suggest an equally simple alternative.

 

[Surfer]

The 85% guideline was probably based on someone's fantasy about cars and caravans who had nothing better to do at the time.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Roger,

I suggest the advice should not be just a simple notional ratio, as the matter of towing stability is a complex matter and is unique to every outfit.

Good towing is achived by keeping within the legally required limit, and trying to keep the trailers mass as small as possible, correctly distributing the load to create an adequate nose load, having the car and trailer properply maintained, reading the road conditions, and driving carefull, and ultimatley If in doubt go slower.

 

[RogerL]

Hello Roger,
I suggest the advice should not be just a simple notional ratio, as the matter of towing stability is a complex matter and is unique to every outfit.
Good towing is achived by keeping within the legally required limit, and trying to keep the trailers mass as small as possible, correctly distributing the load to create an adequate nose load, having the car and trailer properply maintained, reading the road conditions, and driving carefull, and ultimatley If in doubt go slower.

Good words John, but totally inadequate - beginners need simple clear advice - many caravanners simply don't have the mathematical and scientific ability to assess all the dynamic factors involved.

 

[Lutz]

So Germany has multiple limits of 30%, 80%, 100%, 110% and 120% - is that 5 different categories of caravan combination? Or are you still bringing other trailer types into the discission - this is a caravan forum.
It's absurd to say that 85% has no basis and then not suggest an equally simple alternative.

The 30%, 80% and 100% all apply to caravans, the last two to other types of trailer.
80% is for caravans with hydraulic shock absorbers
100% is for caravans with shock absorbers and an integrated hitch or electronic stabiliser or the towing vehicle with TSP.
Without any foundation any percentage figure is totally arbitrary so neither 85% makes much sense nor is there a simple alternative. The only sensible advice is to keep the caravan as light as possible and the car as heavy as possible and, of course, always within the manufacturer's limits and leave it at that, without specifiying a percentage figure.