Towing limits

[Robert_5133062]

I am sure this has probably been asked before but.

I have a Volvo S60D5 car 185BHP max towing cap is 1600kg

We currently tow abbey van circa 1450kg all in

We hav seen a van we like as following spec

External length: 26' 1' 7.95m

Internal length: 20' 7' 6.27m

External Width: 7' 4' 2.23m

Height: 8' 10' 2.70m

Mass in running order: 26.26cwt 1334kg

Payload: 6.02cwt 306kg

MTPLM: 32.28cwt 1640kg

Awning size: 34' 5' 1,048cm

Axles: Twin

The question is

Is it legal to tow this with my car as long as i dont exceed 1600KG fully loaded or is it the fact that the van could carry 1640KG that makes it illegal?

or could i get the manufacture to replate the van to 1600 KG MTPLM.

I am sure we could manage with 266KG payload easily.

as quarter of a ton is a lot of ladies shoes (only joking)

Robert

 

[emmitdb]

Greetings,

MNo doubt Luz will be along in due course and blow me out of the water but it is my interpretation that,(and assuming you have the held a full licence from before 1997)

You can tow your combination above

PROVIDED you don't exceed the 1600kgs towing limit set by your manufacturer.

This kind of conundrum question has been asked many times before and all sorts of hypothysis have been thrown into the mix.

One thing is certain. You are sailing so close to the wind weightwise that on being stopped by either VOSA or the police, you may find yourself having to argue at Court that your load was excessive and imparing your ability to control the vehicle. That argument is more subjective than objective and quite frankly could be avoided by getting a better match.

 

[Lutz]

You don't have to do anything as the outfit would be legal even if the caravan is loaded to its MTPLM of 1640kg. The max towload specified for the car is NOT the same as the total weight of the caravan but only its axle load. (MTPLM includes noseweight but the car's towload limit doesn't). Therefore, so long as the noseweight exceeds 40kg you will be legal.

 

[Robert_5133062]

You don't have to do anything as the outfit would be legal even if the caravan is loaded to its MTPLM of 1640kg. The max towload specified for the car is NOT the same as the total weight of the caravan but only its axle load. (MTPLM includes noseweight but the car's towload limit doesn't). Therefore, so long as the noseweight exceeds 40kg you will be legal.

Thanks for your input guys once again the forum proves its worth and all for free.

Robert

 

[Toro]

Hi Robert, First of all, I would check the car handbook to check what the kerb weight is, and also find out what the maximum train weight is (your car handbook should tell you where there is a plate on the car with this stamped on it) Towing a caravan which exceeds the kerb weight is a definite NO NO. In fact you should be aiming for the caravan, fully laden, to be no more than 85% of the car's kerbweight.

It is illegal for the car + caravan to exceed the maximum train weight, with both laden

 

[Lutz]

Towing a caravan which exceeds the kerbweight of the car is not a NO NO so long as it is within the manufacturer's plated limits and so long as you have a category 'B+E' licence or your passed your driving test before the 1st January 1997. It may not be a particularly favourable combination and should be avoided, if possible, but one cannot describe it as a definite NO NO.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The dreaded 85% towing ratio has been mentioned again!

Let me state at the outset, I am totally in favour of recommending that the actual ratio of trailer to tow vehicle is kept as low as possible.

The 85% figure is a notional figure the UK caravan industry has devised to suggest as a recommended maximum to ratio. Nowhere else in the world is such a figure suggested!

The figure was arrived at many years ago, when car manufacturers did not produce technical evidence of maximum towing capabilities. It was a dogmatic approach when there was little evidence to go on. In its favour, it was relatively simple to apply.

Things have substantially changed since then, yet the UK caravan has, as always, still got its head in buried the sand and has ignored major technical advances in car design and safety, and the legislation that now forces all cars for European market to test and publish actual towing limits for each model of car.

How can the UK caravan industry justify continuing to use 85% of kerb weight and ignore the the evidence based tests that show the technical capability of modern cars.

85% has no legal basis, and it is still quite possible for a badly loaded caravan that complies with 85% or less to be considered to be dangerous. Compliance with 85% is no guarantee the outfit will be stable.

 

[xtrailman]

Robert

I strongly advise against towing at and over 100%.

How can you be sure your van weight is legal?

Short off weighing it before every jorney, how can you be sure that you comply?

Our two self appointed experts on this forum are forever shouting down the 85% guildline.

Be sensible and at lest work closer to this than 100%.

Ask yorself how heavy is my car really?

Is this caravan realy only 1334 mass, i doubt it.

+/- 3% or is it 5% of the stated weights?

The makers of you car deem it capable of only towing 1600kg, that says to me that structurally your car is not strong enough.

For your safety and other road uses,dont do it.

 

[Lutz]

Whilst I would also advise against towing at over 100%, I also question the idea of sticking blindly to a 85% weight ratio limit. For a start, it is totally arbitrary. No-one has ever come up with data proving that accident rates go up disproportionately if 85% is exceeded. Secondly, it rarely represents a realistic towing condition. It compares a virtually empty towcar (except for the driver) towing a fully laden caravan. When does a situation like that actually occur in practice? A worst case like that is probably encountered not very often.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Ray,

Your concerns of knowing if a trailer weight is legal is a legitimate concern. But the same error would potentially apply for any target figure, whether it is 85 or 100%.

It is widely reported that published kerbweights are often not accurate, in most cases the vehicle is heavier, and teh same applies to the MIRO of caravans. This is usually due to a combination of manufacturing tolerances, and any OEM extras added as part of the factory build.

The upshot is that you cannot assume the weight of a vehicle or trailer is the numeric sum of the published MIRO/kerbweight plus the pay load. for accuracy it has to be weighed.

I assume you are referring to my views on the subject of the 85% figure, well yes I do not agree that an arbitrary figure should be given so much credence. There is no published data to support the use of 85%, and no where else in the world is a similar arbitrary figure suggested. Why 85%? why not 67% 75% 80% or 90% etc. I do agree with the underlying principal of conservative loading which must help towards better outfit handling.

Your fifth paragraph does not seem to make sense, please can you explain why a car rated by testing at 1600Kg is not strong enough, Not strong enough for what?

Safety should always be a primary concern, but there are plenty of outfits that probably meet the 85% criteria that are involved in incidents, so simply keeping to an arbitrary figure is no guarantee of a safe towing experience. the drivers ability is probably more significant than weight they tow.

 

[gary]

It's my understanding that the 85% figure came from the Caravan Club after consulting a group of Caravanners with combined towing experience of well over 100 years.

The 'rule' though is not set in concrete, it's advice for less experienced Caravanners to help keep them safe, the advise goes on to say up to 100% with more experience

A car manufacturer on the other hand gives a towing limit base entirely on what the car can move up hill from rest without undue stress on the mechanics of the car, it takes no account of how that weight might react being towed at speed!

Nor does it take account of the increased stress of towing such a load over time and the bills for repair that will eventually occur

I don't agree that's it's now somehow 'out of date' either, a given weight today is identical to what it was 30 or 40yrs ago, the potential problems of towing it therefore remain the same.

The reasoning behind the figure was laid out at the time but the simple fact it's based firmly on 'practical' knowledge has always made it more than good enough advise for me to follow.

Conversely, I have to mention an old Toyota pick-up that trundled by the bar I was drinking at yesterday afternoon, on the back was a very substantial boat trailer of well over a Ton, on the trailer was an equally substantial 20ft 450hp powerboat of perhaps another 4 ton!!!!

 

[Lutz]

That still leaves open the issue of how realistic the concept of weight ratio based on a more or less empty car towing a fully laden caravan is.

It is not true that the towing limits specified by the car manufacturer are based solely on the ability to perform hill starts. Handling tests, brake tests and engine cooling performance tests are also carried out and are just as important as the structural tests already referred to.

The reason why an 85% weight ratio has been described as out-of-date is the technical advances made in vehicle engineering design over recent years. ABS and more importantly the introduction of ESP+ has contributed significantly towards the safety of car/caravan outfits. Indeed, with ESP+ fitted to the car and a similar electronic stabilizer such as AlKo's ATC on the caravan it is theoretically impossible to experience an uncontrollable snake no matter how unfavourable the weight ratio is.

 

[xtrailman]

Theoretically the Titanic was unsinkable.

It now lies at the bottom of the ocean.

 

[Dustydog]

Lutz

I have both ESP and ATC and have often wondered if the cars ESP should be disabled when towing? I have never done this yet, but then in all fairness I don't think I've ever driven to the limit where the ESP is likely to activate.

Personally I do not believe ESP and ATC with a 100% weight ratio will be much help with the big coach bow waves nor sudden high cross winds. I still have this image of the tail wagging the dog. Obviously a misconception on my part if the electronic goodies do their thing. Ol habits die hard!

And yes for two years I was forced to tow at 100% until the car was up for changing. In fairness it was the bow waves I disliked more than anything else.

Cheers

Dustydog

 

[gary]

Quote: Handling tests, brake tests and engine cooling performance tests are also carried out

Well I don't know about that?, I do ask though how they could arrive at some meaningful 'average'? if they do why then don't they elaborate on a simple maximum tow weight?.

Otherwise, as Ford say my V6 Mondeo is good for 1800kg, come what may, frankly I don't believe that for a second, it's not particularly good at 1300kg!!

On the point of Alko's ATC and possibly ESP, if they are an advantage, that would be to assume they will 'always' get you out of trouble, I'm not prepared to except that as fact either

 

[Lutz]

Both ESP+ and the AlKo ATC have been tested and documentation on their performance is available.

I have an electronic stabiliser on my caravan, the LEAS system which works on a similar principle to the AlKo ATC, and can confirm that is does work. The first thing that I did after fitting it was to try the outfit out on a big wide open space of a supermarket carpark and try to induce a deliberate snake by swerving with see-saw movements of the steering wheel and next-to-no noseweight. It is uncanny how the system steps in and 'catches' the snake.

On the subject of towload limits, if you find that you aren't happy to tow at the manufacturer's limit then this is personal judgment (which is good because one should never tow beyond one's own capabilities), but there are people out there towing 1800kg caravans with Mondeos and quite safely, too. Obviously such a combination requires extra care and attention, which some may be unwilling or unable to provide, but one cannot categorically say that towing at the limit is unsafe so long as one adapts to the conditions.

 

[RogerL]

Towing limits relate to all types of trailers, not just caravans - tonne for tonne, caravans are one of the least stable types of trailer with all the weight round the perimeter and big gaps in the middle - this creates much higher yaw momentum than, say, goods, car or agricultural trailers all of which have to be catered for by the towing limit.

My car has a towing limit of 1800kg and handles a car trailer of that weight just fine - my kerbweight is only 1500kg and handles a caravan at 100% just fine, but I wouldn't dream of towing a 1800kg caravan even though a car trailer of the same weight is fine.

 

[Lutz]

Yes, the manufacturers' limits are ultimate technical limits which don't take the type of trailer or driver's ability into consideration.

 

[gary]

I think that's the point Lutz's, the 85% though does take account!.

I've never been one for obeying rules without question but this one I do feel quite strongly has got it spot on, even though it's only a recommendation!!

On the Subject of Leas, I'm not sure if mines the same (JohnG will say as he's got the same as me) However, I've switched mine off as it does not appear to suit my style of driving.

In traffic in brake mode 1, the van stops the car which I and particularly OH finds annoying in heavy traffic.

Tried reducing mode 1 brake pressure to zero so leaving the rest working but this does not work either?

 

[Lutz]

Every driver should now his/her limits and what they feel comfortable to tow with regardless of any weight ratio which doesn't reflect a realistic condition anyway.

Electronic stabiliser on caravans, whether AlKo ATC or LEAS, work by applying the brake on the caravan, thereby tugging against the car. However, if you notice the stabiliser deploying under normal driving conditions then either the system has been adjusted to operate too sensitively or the setup of your outfit is very poor or you are a boy racer. The system should only operate in an emergency, just like the car's ABS.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Gary,

Roger P has quite eloquently highlights the issue of trailer types. This does impact on the towing experience, and as Lutz says, it is up to the driver to drive the outfit within their own limits. Each outfit will have its own unique limits, and so simply adhering to an arbitrary weight ratio figure will give some people a false sense of security, because a safe towing experience is affected by a lot more than simply the weight ratio.

You are perfectly at liberty to aim for 85%, that is your personal choice. Based on your own experience though, you have not had any problems at this ratio, but perhaps you would not have had any problems at 90% or more. But this is your unique experience, and other outfits will behave differently some better some worse, so technically it is illogical to apply a arbitrary figure for everyone to achieve.

In practice it is getting harder to achieve 85% as cars are generally getting lighter, and caravans heavier. It is time that a new set of guidelines are produced, that try to maximise the towing experience by considering different aspects of the components of the proposed outfit and the drivers abilities and experience.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Gary,

Roger P has quite eloquently highlights the issue of trailer types. This does impact on the towing experience, and as Lutz says, it is up to the driver to drive the outfit within their own limits. Each outfit will have its own unique limits, and so simply adhering to an arbitrary weight ratio figure will give some people a false sense of security, because a safe towing experience is affected by a lot more than simply the weight ratio.

You are perfectly at liberty to aim for 85%, that is your personal choice. Based on your own experience though, you have not had any problems at this ratio, but perhaps you would not have had any problems at 90% or more. But this is your unique experience, and other outfits will behave differently some better some worse, so technically it is illogical to apply a arbitrary figure for everyone to achieve.

In practice it is getting harder to achieve 85% as cars are generally getting lighter, and caravans heavier. It is time that a new set of guidelines are produced, that try to maximise the towing experience by considering different aspects of the components of the proposed outfit and the drivers abilities and experience.

Sorry it should be Roger L--

 

[colin-yorkshire]

every time someone mentions the magic 85% rule it makes me smile like it is some sort of holy grail for caravanners.

there is not much point in going over what has allready be said exept to reply that it is outdated, bears no significance to modern cars, and in most cases (towing with a family runabout)allmost impossible to achive.

I well remember this being talked about when I first started caravaning in the late 60's then it made sense to a point as there were no rules on towing. it was not out of the ordinary to tow a 16ft van (16/18cwt) with a 1300 cortina or a 20ft power boat with a hillman avenger "I have done both without incident" it was more to do with the power output of the old cars than the anything else,85% of the weight of a cortina was the same be it 1300 or 2ltr.

onelast thing my present unit is 97% and with a all up weight of 50kg below the cars max gross train weight(weighridge certified) but still manages to get over glen coe in 3rd gear.

colin

 

[gary]

Hi John, To suggest rigidly sticking to 85% is to miss the point I'm trying to make, it's not a rule, thankfully, just a very very sensible recommendation.

To make it the rule, 'the law', would IMO be equally as wrong as maximum noseweight laws applied to cars, straying over these 'arbitrary and now cast in stone' limits today, draws enough derision from some of this forums contributors as it is!!

No, I totally agree that personal experience is the key and again the recommendation covers that.

But, where does this experience come from? towing an outfit without incidence is telling you something but what?

How many have experienced an 'out of control' incident with which they can say they have learnt valuable lessons?

I doubt many can honestly say yes to that, it starts far to quick and over equally as fast, however; if you've had several then I'd respectfully suggest one should get some lessons!!

Car design and engine power have improved immensely since the 85% ratio came about, modern CAD engineering reduces everything to a minimum for maximum effect.

And that's the point, how much is built back in to cope with towing? not a lot I'd say, it cannot be high on any car manufactures agenda as it won't sell many cars.

Cars are designed around effortless and economical cruising, gear ratios for that do not help with tugging a van.

So yesterday it was lack of power, today no shortage of power, but designed in such a way it's of little if any extra use for towing. So I still say 85% is as relevant today as then, not to exactly perhaps but far nearer that than max tow limits.

PS, Not so long ago, electronic braking aids were argued 'on this forum' to perhaps lull one into a false sense of security and should not be fitted.

The majority opinion including my own was that they are a useful safety aid, hopefully never to be needed but not though to in any way replace normal accepted towing criteria.

Here we are 18 months later and the Luddite misgiving is unbelievably proving founded!!

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi gary

while you do make some relevent points I must disagree totally about some magical point at which it becomes fool hardy to exeed

why 85% why not 70% or 50% I say again it was a formula invented in the early days of caravaning and only for caravanning (towing anything else had no such recomendation) at a time when the average size of a van was 12ft and 16ft was a monster, the average tow car was a ford cortina that had little power to start with and brakes that needed 2hrs notice in order to work.

I was actually told by one caravan expert that the ideal tow weight was achived by parking the unit on a slight hill applying the van parking brake and trying to pull the van up hill with the van brakes on if the car would not do it the van was too heavy " how quaint it that" this was the era in which the 85% rule was born and bears no relevence for todays tow cars or the vans we choose to tow them with.

colin