Why should I avoid Green Flag and check my car and caravan insurance as everything is legal.RAY said:
Sorry Prof. Only went back to correct a spelling mistake and ended up posting again.
After reading all the comments on this tread my conclusions are that maybe we get a bit hung up with the term kerb weight.
If we were to follow the listed then would this not suffice ?.
Towing vehicle should never be loaded above the manufacturers stated recommendation.
Caravan should never be loaded above the manufacturers stated MTPLM.
The maximum train weight for the towing vehicle should never be exceeded.
Try to stay within the 85% limit.
As an example.
My friends VW with a kerb weight 2100kg, when loaded with all he would need to take with him, motorbike, awning, barbacues, gas bottles,etc etc. would weight about 2400 kg with driver. well within the max permitted.
My caravan has a MRO of 1740 kg. Add the mover and a few bits and peices this would be around 1900kg. Well within the MTPLM of 2200kg.
Total train weight 4300kg. Well within the max.
This combination works out at a 79% match.
Providing he always tows in theses conditions and of course drives with the correct due care and attention needed when towing a caravan then why would he need to worry ?.
I should also point out that he has held a HGV/LGV class 1 licence for 35 years.
I should also point out that I have not taken into account anything that Green flag would require.
PETERA
After reading all the comments on this tread my conclusions are that maybe we get a bit hung up with the term kerb weight.
If we were to follow the listed then would this not suffice ?.
Towing vehicle should never be loaded above the manufacturers stated recommendation.
Caravan should never be loaded above the manufacturers stated MTPLM.
The maximum train weight for the towing vehicle should never be exceeded.
Try to stay within the 85% limit.
As an example.
My friends VW with a kerb weight 2100kg, when loaded with all he would need to take with him, motorbike, awning, barbacues, gas bottles,etc etc. would weight about 2400 kg with driver. well within the max permitted.
My caravan has a MRO of 1740 kg. Add the mover and a few bits and peices this would be around 1900kg. Well within the MTPLM of 2200kg.
Total train weight 4300kg. Well within the max.
This combination works out at a 79% match.
Providing he always tows in theses conditions and of course drives with the correct due care and attention needed when towing a caravan then why would he need to worry ?.
I should also point out that he has held a HGV/LGV class 1 licence for 35 years.
I should also point out that I have not taken into account anything that Green flag would require.
PETERA
- Mar 14, 2005
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Hold On Gents,
Lets try and balance this out before its pistols at dawn!
Ray you posted that Green Flag recovery had a clause in their policy which limits their liability to trailers of no greater weight than the kerbweight of the car. I have found this in Green Flags published Terms and Conditions on Page 5 under Definitions.
http://www.greenflag.com/breakdown-cover/terms-conditions.html
The document is titled Terms and conditions, and thus is the definitive basis of their policy.
The company are perfectly at liberty to have any clause they like in their policies, as there content is not governed by regulation. Other than to preclude unlawful activity.
However, I think we have established that the clause is actually unworkable, firstly because a published "Kerbweight" figure is not a requirement, it has no legal definition and thus its value is difficult to establish with any certainty.
Secondly they have not clarified the definition if the "loaded weight" and as such it must be interpreted as the actual weight of the trailer, which as Surfer points out, they cannot know that unless they weigh it, and the they have no comparison figure for the "kerbweight" of the car, So they cant prove if A is bigger than B etc, thus they have no basis on which to enforce the clause.
However If they do decide to clarify the wording, then the only paper way they can do that will be relate to the cars Unladen weight and the trailers MTPLM. both of which are technically available in documentation. In which case Surfers outfit would fall foul of the clause, as could many other outfits.
But as it stands without the above clarification it is in my view unenforceable.
Lets try and balance this out before its pistols at dawn!
Ray you posted that Green Flag recovery had a clause in their policy which limits their liability to trailers of no greater weight than the kerbweight of the car. I have found this in Green Flags published Terms and Conditions on Page 5 under Definitions.
http://www.greenflag.com/breakdown-cover/terms-conditions.html
The document is titled Terms and conditions, and thus is the definitive basis of their policy.
The company are perfectly at liberty to have any clause they like in their policies, as there content is not governed by regulation. Other than to preclude unlawful activity.
However, I think we have established that the clause is actually unworkable, firstly because a published "Kerbweight" figure is not a requirement, it has no legal definition and thus its value is difficult to establish with any certainty.
Secondly they have not clarified the definition if the "loaded weight" and as such it must be interpreted as the actual weight of the trailer, which as Surfer points out, they cannot know that unless they weigh it, and the they have no comparison figure for the "kerbweight" of the car, So they cant prove if A is bigger than B etc, thus they have no basis on which to enforce the clause.
However If they do decide to clarify the wording, then the only paper way they can do that will be relate to the cars Unladen weight and the trailers MTPLM. both of which are technically available in documentation. In which case Surfers outfit would fall foul of the clause, as could many other outfits.
But as it stands without the above clarification it is in my view unenforceable.
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Hello again PeterA
I know it is easy to make some mistakes with the forum engine, sometimes its so slow at responding to the save button you don't think its accepted it, only to find you have double posted.
Lutz has already responded to the technical flaw in your calculation of the towing ratio, which puts quite a different complexion on your friends outfit.
Your error suggest you may misunderstand some of the weght and load issues relating to towing in general.
Going through your list I would make the follwoing comments:
As you now seem to appreciate the term "Kerbweight" has no legal definition, and in fact the way it is applied can vary from manufacturer to manuafacturer and from user to user. This definitely leads to some confusion. However there is one area where there is no confusion: Payload (user-load)never forms any part of the "kerbweight",
Even Though "kerbweight" may not be formally or legally recognised, it is used by the caravan industry as part of their approach to assessing towing ratio's in conjunction with the caravans MTPLM. (MTPLM is a recognised and legal value)
The towing ratio looks at a worst case scenario where the tow vehicle is at its absolute minimum weight and the caravan is at the top of its weight limit - a situation that is highly unlikely to occur. - but it is a consistent method.
It is illegal to load any vehicle above any of its load limits. It is automatically assumed that an excess load is unsafe and therefore prosecutable.
85% IS NOT AN ENFORCEABLE LIMIT; it is a only a guideline suggested by the UK caravan industry. There is no supporting technical evidence for its numerical value or as a safety margin. However good sense suggests that you should keep your trailer weight as small as possible.
Your friends HGV qualificatios and experience do not change the above, or reduce the burden of compliance.
The Green Flag debate whilst not part of your original question does perhaps have some relevance in the context of the 105% ratio your friends outfit represents.
Happy caravanning
I know it is easy to make some mistakes with the forum engine, sometimes its so slow at responding to the save button you don't think its accepted it, only to find you have double posted.
Lutz has already responded to the technical flaw in your calculation of the towing ratio, which puts quite a different complexion on your friends outfit.
Your error suggest you may misunderstand some of the weght and load issues relating to towing in general.
Going through your list I would make the follwoing comments:
As you now seem to appreciate the term "Kerbweight" has no legal definition, and in fact the way it is applied can vary from manufacturer to manuafacturer and from user to user. This definitely leads to some confusion. However there is one area where there is no confusion: Payload (user-load)never forms any part of the "kerbweight",
Even Though "kerbweight" may not be formally or legally recognised, it is used by the caravan industry as part of their approach to assessing towing ratio's in conjunction with the caravans MTPLM. (MTPLM is a recognised and legal value)
The towing ratio looks at a worst case scenario where the tow vehicle is at its absolute minimum weight and the caravan is at the top of its weight limit - a situation that is highly unlikely to occur. - but it is a consistent method.
It is illegal to load any vehicle above any of its load limits. It is automatically assumed that an excess load is unsafe and therefore prosecutable.
85% IS NOT AN ENFORCEABLE LIMIT; it is a only a guideline suggested by the UK caravan industry. There is no supporting technical evidence for its numerical value or as a safety margin. However good sense suggests that you should keep your trailer weight as small as possible.
Your friends HGV qualificatios and experience do not change the above, or reduce the burden of compliance.
The Green Flag debate whilst not part of your original question does perhaps have some relevance in the context of the 105% ratio your friends outfit represents.
Happy caravanning
Can i get something in my head, im on a B licence so basically i can only have a car and caravan weighing no more than 3500Kg, now what is confusing me is, do i need to look at the GROSS weight of the car and the GROSS weight of the caravan, as long as these are no more than 3500KG im ok???
Im so confused as i would like to get a car which will allow me to tow a 4 or maybe a 6 berth caravan and still be legal to tow! I think the ford mondeo will allow me to do this but just need to make sure!
Im so confused as i would like to get a car which will allow me to tow a 4 or maybe a 6 berth caravan and still be legal to tow! I think the ford mondeo will allow me to do this but just need to make sure!
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Almost, but not quite. The gross train weight must not exceed 3500kg, not the sum of gross weight of the car and gross weight of the caravan. If you add the two then you would be counting noseweight twice because the noseweight counts towards the gross weight of the car, but it is also included in the gross weight of the caravan.
You will, no doubt, be aware that there is another limitation: the gross (maximum allowable) weight of the caravan must not exceed the unladen weight of the car. Unladen weight is considered to be the same as 'Mass in service' in your V5c certificate.
You will, no doubt, be aware that there is another limitation: the gross (maximum allowable) weight of the caravan must not exceed the unladen weight of the car. Unladen weight is considered to be the same as 'Mass in service' in your V5c certificate.
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Hello Mr Bell,
There are so many different acronyms that apply to weights and limits, i'm not suprised that so many people get lost in the details,
Your Cat B licence actually refers to a 'combined Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) not exceeding 3500" To all intents and purposes you can replace the word Mass with weight in these circumstances.
MAM is consideresd to be the same as Maximum Gross Weight (MGW) which is a limit or capacity not the actual measured weight.
Just as an example consider a vehicle that has an Unladen weight (ULW) of 1600Kg, and an MGW (or MAM) of 2100Kg.
and a trailer with an ULW of 500Kg and a MAM of 1500Kg.
If you only part load the vehicles with say 200Kg each so the car weighs 1800Kg and the trailer 700Kg giving a gross train weight of 2500Kg you may think you are ok to drive it on a Cat B only licence, Sadly NO, becasue the licence looks at the combined MAM which is 2100 + 1500 = 3600Kgs
So its what its maximum legal weight can be, not what the actual outfit weighs.
Because you are looking for a large caravan (6 berth) their MAM's are going to be large, which means you have to look for a car witha big ULW, adn big cars usually come with quite big loading margins which measn thier MAM's are aslo going to be large, and may exceed the combined MAM figure.
This is why it is almost impossible for forum memebers to give you any clear sugegstions about suitable outfits.
You need to start by identifing either a car or a caravan,and then start checking the other part of the outfit to see if it fits within the available limits.
There are so many different acronyms that apply to weights and limits, i'm not suprised that so many people get lost in the details,
Your Cat B licence actually refers to a 'combined Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) not exceeding 3500" To all intents and purposes you can replace the word Mass with weight in these circumstances.
MAM is consideresd to be the same as Maximum Gross Weight (MGW) which is a limit or capacity not the actual measured weight.
Just as an example consider a vehicle that has an Unladen weight (ULW) of 1600Kg, and an MGW (or MAM) of 2100Kg.
and a trailer with an ULW of 500Kg and a MAM of 1500Kg.
If you only part load the vehicles with say 200Kg each so the car weighs 1800Kg and the trailer 700Kg giving a gross train weight of 2500Kg you may think you are ok to drive it on a Cat B only licence, Sadly NO, becasue the licence looks at the combined MAM which is 2100 + 1500 = 3600Kgs
So its what its maximum legal weight can be, not what the actual outfit weighs.
Because you are looking for a large caravan (6 berth) their MAM's are going to be large, which means you have to look for a car witha big ULW, adn big cars usually come with quite big loading margins which measn thier MAM's are aslo going to be large, and may exceed the combined MAM figure.
This is why it is almost impossible for forum memebers to give you any clear sugegstions about suitable outfits.
You need to start by identifing either a car or a caravan,and then start checking the other part of the outfit to see if it fits within the available limits.
so i am looking at cars which have a low gross weight which then restricts me on the weight of the caravan. damn!!! i was thinking of a new ford mondeo which has a gross weight of 2170kg which is a reasonable weight so that means i have 1330kg left! am i working this out correctly??
a caravan which weighs 1330kg will not be a 6 berth but may get a 4 berth caravan tho!! will i or wont i??
a caravan which weighs 1330kg will not be a 6 berth but may get a 4 berth caravan tho!! will i or wont i??
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Actually, as the new Mondeo has a noseweight limit of 90kg, and this is included in the 2170kg, the MTPLM of the caravan could be up to 1420kg. You should be able to find quite a reasonable selection of 4 berth caravans within that limit. There are 6 berths as well that would fulfill your weight constraint, but obviously the choice is more limited.
yeah i am limited on caravans but 1420kg is still no too bad i suppose. so do you take the nose weight off the overall weight of the car??
Hi
My brain hurts.
If you connect your trailer to your car, can you then weigh it, so the ULW includes the trailer nose weight?
Weight and mass are not the same ..... though I'm not sure why. To be pedantic (ie- bloody minded), if I weigh my car ...... and then take the barrage balloon and bottle of helium out of the boot, tie the balloon to the rood rack and inflate it, my car will weigh less - it might even weigh nothing - but the MASS will be the same. Your car will weigh less at the top of a mountain.
DLVA refer to the ULW of the tow car, and MASS of the trailer. DVLA include the mass/weight of your bottle of wine if it is in the trailer, but ignore it if it is in the car. But if they suspect the car is overloaded, you cannot take the bottle out of the car before check weighing. Inconsistent!
There was the story of the bloke at airport check-in. His hand luggage was slightly overweight. He shrugged his shoulders, opened his bag, took out a salami sausage .... and ate it.
602
My brain hurts.
If you connect your trailer to your car, can you then weigh it, so the ULW includes the trailer nose weight?
Weight and mass are not the same ..... though I'm not sure why. To be pedantic (ie- bloody minded), if I weigh my car ...... and then take the barrage balloon and bottle of helium out of the boot, tie the balloon to the rood rack and inflate it, my car will weigh less - it might even weigh nothing - but the MASS will be the same. Your car will weigh less at the top of a mountain.
DLVA refer to the ULW of the tow car, and MASS of the trailer. DVLA include the mass/weight of your bottle of wine if it is in the trailer, but ignore it if it is in the car. But if they suspect the car is overloaded, you cannot take the bottle out of the car before check weighing. Inconsistent!
There was the story of the bloke at airport check-in. His hand luggage was slightly overweight. He shrugged his shoulders, opened his bag, took out a salami sausage .... and ate it.
602
Mr Bell said:
If you are stopped by VOSA and the gross weight of the car at the time is 1900kg and the gross weight of the caravan is 1500kg, you are legal although the maximum allowed gross weight of car is 2170kg and the MTPLM of the caravan is 1700kg which then exceeds the 3500kg.
Im officially confused. I thought that as long as the unladen weight (which i thought was the kerbweight) is taken into account and the gross weight of the caravan isnt over the 3500kg i should be ok, so if i have picked this up correct i need to look at gross for both car and caravan??
Help!!???
Help!!???
ok i think i know what your talking about, so it is gross weight of the car i need to look at! i understand about the caravan side.
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Hi 602
To answer your first question, NO, the ULW of the car is just the car with no trailer attached. The nose weight of the trailer forms part of the phyical load the car has to carry.
Yes scientifically Mass and Weight are different. All objects have mass, and it doesn't matter where you take them, their mass remains the same, but depending on where you are the weight it exhibits may be different, so to compliment your description a 1Kg bag of sugar weighs 1Kg here on earth but it will only weigh approx 0.166Kg on the moon.
What causes the difference is the relative effect of the force of gravity. The moons gravity is about 1/6 of that on Earth, so it only attracts items with 1/6 of the gravitational force here on earth.
However there are years of traditions inbred into us that accepts that here on Earth and for all practical purposes when describing caravans a mass of 1Kg produces a weight of 1Kg and similarly for the imperial units also. The practical differences in weights due to attainable altitude are also small enough to be insignificant for caravanner's.
Unfortunately, the regulations and laws concerning transportation and how they're described have evolved over many years, and in different places, which means the same feature of a car or caravan may have different names or units and therefore acronyms. - so confusion can easily break out
But worse than that is the detail of what feature is being measured or described. There are some criteria we like to use that have no specific definition, and in some cases different manufactures may use the same name but mean something quite different. Kerbweight is a prime example of where there is no universal agreement on what is or is not included in the "kerbweight" AND its similar but not identical to "Mass In Running Order" (MIRO oor MRO) and again similar but different to "Unladen Weight" (UL or ULW)
Where towing is concerned and especially when operating very close to allowable limits, you have to be very careful to understand or take advice about the safe and legal issues. The devil is in the detail. Even then its not always clear cut, the advice offered by the PC web pages associated with this forum have some errors, but even the Govt web sites have some ambiguous information and some of it is can be interpreted contrary to the acts or parliament or regulations.
Its a minefield, but with some patients and steady progress it is possible to get to the crux of the issues.
To answer your first question, NO, the ULW of the car is just the car with no trailer attached. The nose weight of the trailer forms part of the phyical load the car has to carry.
Yes scientifically Mass and Weight are different. All objects have mass, and it doesn't matter where you take them, their mass remains the same, but depending on where you are the weight it exhibits may be different, so to compliment your description a 1Kg bag of sugar weighs 1Kg here on earth but it will only weigh approx 0.166Kg on the moon.
What causes the difference is the relative effect of the force of gravity. The moons gravity is about 1/6 of that on Earth, so it only attracts items with 1/6 of the gravitational force here on earth.
However there are years of traditions inbred into us that accepts that here on Earth and for all practical purposes when describing caravans a mass of 1Kg produces a weight of 1Kg and similarly for the imperial units also. The practical differences in weights due to attainable altitude are also small enough to be insignificant for caravanner's.
Unfortunately, the regulations and laws concerning transportation and how they're described have evolved over many years, and in different places, which means the same feature of a car or caravan may have different names or units and therefore acronyms. - so confusion can easily break out
But worse than that is the detail of what feature is being measured or described. There are some criteria we like to use that have no specific definition, and in some cases different manufactures may use the same name but mean something quite different. Kerbweight is a prime example of where there is no universal agreement on what is or is not included in the "kerbweight" AND its similar but not identical to "Mass In Running Order" (MIRO oor MRO) and again similar but different to "Unladen Weight" (UL or ULW)
Where towing is concerned and especially when operating very close to allowable limits, you have to be very careful to understand or take advice about the safe and legal issues. The devil is in the detail. Even then its not always clear cut, the advice offered by the PC web pages associated with this forum have some errors, but even the Govt web sites have some ambiguous information and some of it is can be interpreted contrary to the acts or parliament or regulations.
Its a minefield, but with some patients and steady progress it is possible to get to the crux of the issues.
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Hello Surfer,
I'm sorry but you are definately wrong on this point.
The wording of the Cat B licence entitlement refers to the combined MAM, not the gross train weight. The difference and it is very importnat to understand this, is that the combined MAM (Maximum Authorised Mass) is a fixed value for any outfit - it does not reduce if you only part load.
So given your scenario would still give a combined MAM of 2170 +1700 = 3870Kg
I'm sorry but you are definately wrong on this point.
The wording of the Cat B licence entitlement refers to the combined MAM, not the gross train weight. The difference and it is very importnat to understand this, is that the combined MAM (Maximum Authorised Mass) is a fixed value for any outfit - it does not reduce if you only part load.
So given your scenario would still give a combined MAM of 2170 +1700 = 3870Kg
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There appears to be some confusion regarding the meaning of the term 'gross train weight' in this thread. Some contributors seem to interpret it as being the actual weight of the complete outfit, others use the term as referring to the maximum allowable train weight. It is the latter that must not exceed 3500kg in the case of a Category B licence.
Here is what is stated on the government website!Lutz said:
Category B: Vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM and with up to eight passenger seats
Category B vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM (allowing a combined weight up to 4.25 tonnes MAM) or a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM.
For example:
- a vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.25 tonnes could be driven by the holder of a category B entitlement. This is because the MAM of the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes and also the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle
- the same vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes when coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.5 tonnes would fall within category B+E. This is because although the combined weight of the vehicle and trailer is within the 3.5 tonnes MAM limit, the MAM of the trailer is more than the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle
- Vehicle manufacturers normally recommend a maximum weight of trailer appropriate to their vehicle. Details can usually be found in the vehicle's handbook or obtained from car dealerships. The size of the trailer recommended for an average family car with an unladen weight of around 1 tonne would be well within the new category B threshold
so can someone make some sence out of this jargin!!
I think its trying to say you have to use gross weight of car then the max weight of the caravan!???
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