Towing weights and the 85% "rule"

[Tony_374347486]

If whilst towing I load my car with such relatively heavy things as gas bottles, hydraulic jack, water containers etc. which I would normally carry in my caravan this will obviously reduce the laden weight of the caravan and increase that of the car.

Is this an acceptable/advisable practice bearing in mind the recommended 85% car/caravan relationship ?

Interested to hear views.

Tony

 

[RogerL]

The 85% recommendation is regardless of the car and/or caravan loading regime.

Loading items in the car rather than the caravan will generally improve stability of the outfit but shouldn't be used as a reason for ignoring conventional recommendations.

Our last outfit was 97% so food, drink and awning were carried in the car.

 

[mauron]

Hi Tony,

Whilst Rogerl. is correct, you can also overload the car.

The handbook should give you the maximum loaded weight of the the car, I would bear in mind the Gross Train Weight (i.e. loaded weight of both car and caravan) as stated in your car's handbook.

Good luck,

Ron.W.

 

[Terry_5112949]

The "advisory" rule of 85% is meant for the tow vehicle kerb weight against the max all up weight of the van, by loading up the vehicle with the heavy items does not mean this will increase the vehicle to get the outfit nearer to 85%

 

[RogerL]

Hi Tony,

Whilst Rogerl. is correct, you can also overload the car.

The handbook should give you the maximum loaded weight of the the car, I would bear in mind the Gross Train Weight (i.e. loaded weight of both car and caravan) as stated in your car's handbook.

Good luck,

Ron.W.

I didn't think anyone would be foolish enough to overload their car, perhaps I shouldn't make such assumptions.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Whilst it is sometimes helpful to max out the tow vehicles weight to keep it in control of the trailer, do not under any circumstances carry gas bottles in the car. They must be secured upright in a properly ventilated enclosure for safety and to be legal. The obvious place is the gas locker on the caravan.

 

[rayc]

John, when I go to my local Calor gas depot there are cars coming in regularly to exchange gas cylinders. They are either put in the boot or in the rear of estate cars. Can you confirm they are breaking the law and if so which one?

Ray

 

[MikeyW]

I collect my new gas bottles in the car so am I breaking the law ?

Mike

 

[Lutz]

Here's a link to the requirements regarding transport of gas cylinders in cars:

http://www.bcga.co.uk/preview/publications/L12005.pdf

I think you'll find that, in most cases, you would be breaking the law unless certain, very defined, conditions are fulfilled.

 

[rob_jax]

Reading the BCGA guidelines, there are mandatory requirements for loads with a flammable threshold factor over 333 - so if you are carrying one 6 kg camping bottle, this has a factor of 1 x 6 x (flammable gas multiplier of 3) which (removing shoes and socks for the calculation) is 18 - and is lower than the threshold limit, so only section 2 of the requirements are enforce.

Section 2 does though make strong and specific recommendations about securing and carrying the gas bottle, ventilation, fire extinguishers, and action in case of an accident - amongst other items.

So - totally agree that the best place is the gas locker of your caravan - but if you do transport in the boot (and follow the section 2 guidelines) it's legal, but I'd only contemplate it for the very shortest journey

Robert

 

[Angus1]

No Mike, you won`t be breaking the law.

The legislation clearly states "The full requirement of the carriage Regulations do not apply :-

When private individuals carry dngerous goods which are packaged for retail saleand are intended for private use"

You don`t need to consider thresholds or anything else, if you`re collecting a couple of cylinders for your van, patio heater, whatever, you are legal.

Having done (and passed!) the Dangerous Goods Safety Advisors course, I can assure you none of the CDG/CPL regs were ever designed to affect the `man in the street` (whatever that is ), just as you can buy bleach, caustic soda etc wnd sling them in the boot of your car.

From a safety point of view? Well, I wouldn`t carry them in my car out of choice, but I can`t understand the logic that says they are safer protected by 2mm of GRP/ABS in a gas locker than inside the safety cell of a car thats designed to protect human beings. If the accident is so severe that the cylinders integrity is compromised within the safety cell of a modern car, you aint gonna be alive to realise it anyway.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Lutz has kindly supplied a link to the BCGA, guidance notes. Private individuals carrying gas for personal use are excluded from the need to comply with the BCGA regs unless large quantities of LPG are involved.

However all persons are required to follow the gas safety regulations, Reference is made to the carriage of LPG cylinders.

LPG cylinders must be kept upright at all times. This includes storage and transport as well as periods of use. Failure to do so is a breech of the regulations.

A cylinder on its side has significant potential for a number of safety related hazards. It is can be classed as an unsafe load.

Fire fighters will tell you that LPG bottles are always treated with extreme caution. But a bottle on its side is even more dangerous, because in the event of a leak or breach it will expel gas in its liquid phase, which is particularly dangerous, and it may cause the bottle to become a projectile!

LPG bottles must be secured in the upright during before transport.

 

[rayc]

Without wishing to be pedantic are the regulations law? The word legal was used.

If you are returning from collecting a gas botle from the calor depot and were stopped by one of the agencies of state who have the powers to do so would you be liable to prosecution under the law?

 

[Angus1]

Yes Ray, the regs are law in the same way as the Construction and use regulations (governing axles, dimensions, brakes, lighting etc) are.

However the regs DO NOT apply to us as caravanners going about our normal activity, as I`ve said, that isn`t what they are about, so no, you can`t be pulled by plod or anyone else for carrying a gas bottle in your car.

If you should have a few rolling about on the open bed of a pick-up you could quite resonably expect to get pulled for having an insecure or dangerous load. But anyone doing that should be prosecuted for stupidity as well.

 

[rob_jax]

If you are in a private car with a camping sized bottle or two, then no problems.

If you are in a work vehicle with several bottles - then you should be sure you are in right before travelling.

Most of the danger from carrying a gas bottle in a car is the bottle smashing around after an accident - you wouldn't drive around with a cannon ball loose on the rear window ledge waiting to hit you in the back of the head, and nor for that matter, a 5 kg butane bottle that comes tumbling out of the boot.

So following the section 2 requirements seems to be a good idea for a private individual - securing the bottle so that it can't come loose and smash up the occupants.

Less likely, but still possible after an accident is where the valve becomes damaged and a release of gas happens - again securing the bottle should help prevent that.

Robert

 

[ProfJohnL]

I am sorry but I have to take the pessimistic view.

If a gas bottle is on its side or loose in a vehicle - private of otherwise, then it can be classed as an unsafe/unsecured load.

Whilst the chance of being detected from the outside if it were in a car boot is small, that does not make it right or safe. However if that car is stopped for some other reason and it is then detected, the situation may well be different.

Ray (C). The police are obviously one such agency, though this particular matter is not likely to be the top of crimes list, Fire Service, Officials from the DoT, Customs & Excise.

It is simple enough to avoid, by securing the gas bottle.

 

[Angus1]

Sorry John L, but where do the Fire Service or Customs and Excise enter into the equation?Neither can prosecute for an unsafe load, and as long as the correct duty is paid on fuel being used C&E aren`t interested.

Whilst I am of the unequivical opinion that a gas bottle should be secured, it would be virtually impossible to prove that a loose (in a car boot for instance)one may be grounds for prosecution any more than a bottle of Old Speckled Hen.

I think we are confusing the law with common sense, which can be dangerous.

There are sound grounds for storing cylinders in an upright position, but this begs the question why gas-powered fork-lift trucks have theirs mounted horizontally?

 

[RogerL]

Angus - fork lift trucks are designed to draw off liquid LPG and have all the necessary safety systems in place for dealing with it, specifically including provision for dissipating liquid LPG leaks.

Caravans and most other uses of LPG are designed to draw of gas, including dealing with leaks of gaseous LPG so it's important that liquid doesn't get into the valve mechanism.

 

[Angus1]

I know this has gone somewhat off topic, and so i`ll go a little further......

I am more than aware of the risks involved in the handling and transportation of hazardous substances (its part of my job) but some of the statements on here are, I feel, a little OTT and based on lack of credible information.

I find it strange that there is this terror attached to transporting gas bottles (which are designed for that purpose)in car. although in the caravan they are "protected" by a sliver of GRP and so deemed `safe`. Eurotunnel are happy for caravans with `unprotected` gas bottles to travel through their tunnel, yet ban LPG powered cars. Perhaps because the majority of cars are adapted or converted? Many posters happily drive their LPG vehicles without all the needless handwringing shoen in transpoting a calor bottle, but I know which I`d rather take my chances with in a collision.

I think Eurotunnel concur.

 

[Gareth111278]

Getting back on topic. The 85% guideline is a good starting point once you have bought a well matched outfit i 'd say that so long as no axle or vehicle weights are exceeded and the rear suspension of the tow car isn't dangerously compressed then all heavy items should be carried in the car. This also makes more room in the caravan for roadside brew ups!

to be honest if your outfit match is so close that you're having to strip gas bottles out of the van to get closer to 85% its time to change either car or caravan!

Gareth

 

[rayc]

It appears to me that there are threats of prosecution in many cases on the forum e.g. Using the incorrect e marked towing mirrors for your cars age, and this one. It is interesting how the threat has been changed from "They must be secured upright in a properly ventilated enclosure for safety and to be legal" to "It is simple enough to avoid (prosecution?), by securing the gas bottle".

I do not think anybody advocated not securing a gas bottle whilst transporting it but I believe it is no illegal per sae to transport it either upright or laying down in the boot of the car, maybe inadvisable but alone it is not illegal.

In this age where a driver can be fined for having an apple in their hand then of cvourse I could be completely wrong.

 

[Lutz]

Getting back to the original topic, I don't think Tony was suggesting that he wants to transfer payload from caravan to car in order to achieve an actual 85% weight ratio because the calculated one based on MTPLM and kerbweight was much higher. Firstly, there is no recommendation for actual weight ratio, only for the worst case condition. Secondly, even if the standard calculated ratio were 100%, the actual weight ratio can easily be a lot less than 85%.

For example, if the kerbweight of the car and the MTPLM of the caravan is 1500kg (i.e. a 100% weight ratio) and you transfer the bulk of the payload of the caravan, say 200kg, to the car, then the actual weight ratio will already be reduced to 76%, even before adding any passengers and their luggage to the car. Once they are on board, the actual weight ratio will be even lower, probably under 70%.

Conversely, if the car is fully laden and the caravan almost empty and the actual weight ratio in that condition is 85%, I shudder to think what the weight ratio based on kerbweight and MTPLM might be (probably in the region of about 120% and as likely as not outside the specified towing limits!)

 

[RogerL]

Lutz is correct, as ever. As an "anorak" I keep spreadsheets with weights from all our trips.

My previous outfit had a towing ratio of 97% (1218/1254) but taking loads in car and caravan into account, the actual ratio was 77% (1206/1565).

Having changed towcars we now have a towing ratio of 80% (1218/1520) and an actual ratio of 67% (1203/1804).

Towing ratio has the advantage of being simple to calculate and constant for a given car/caravan. It has the disadvantage of not taking loading regimes, yaw moments, overhang/drawbar ratios and driver ability into account - all of which can have a major effect on stability.

 

[GrahamSouthBrum]

Whilst not a legal requirment, when transporting propane cylinders in my car I place a magnetic flamable gas warning on the back door of my car

 

[Tony_374347486]

Thanks to you all. Most enlightening.

Tony